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David Mauldin
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« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2003, 02:55:03 am » |
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Yes Joe delivering people from a tyrant is a noble thing! and the right thing! If any good can come out of this then Praise the Lord! I see this as the strongest justification for going in. Yet for some reason I suspect it isn't our true motive. Do you think so? Why? or why not?
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« Last Edit: April 05, 2003, 02:58:48 am by David Mauldin »
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Joe Sperling
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« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2003, 05:22:36 am » |
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David---
I really do believe out true motive for going in is to root
out terrorism and not for oil. If oil were the reason then
we would be very very stupid in endangering out relations with all of the other Middle eastern countries with vast supplies of oil. By entering Iraq we anger Iran and Syria especially, but also Saudi Arabia and many North African countries also which are mostly Muslim. Would we purposely want to alienate all of these nations which either supply us oil now or possibly in the future? I really don't think so. Of course, there are always ulterior motives, and I don't believe the whole operation to be squeaky clean, but I do believe the main thrust of it is for a noble purpose.
--Joe
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al Hartman
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« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2003, 09:54:13 am » |
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David,
First, please let me say that i'm honored to have made your acquaintance: You have "put your money where your mouth is," so to speak. i'm glad to know these things about your background and your intended future. You will be a blessing to your fellow man.
Yes, i knew to whom you were referring regarding attitudes. The hospital, police, and foreign references were for illustrative purposes. My contention is that many (not all-- not automatically) Christians view the world scene through the eyes of compassion, and do so with such intensity and consistency that a little comic relief is needed from time to time just to maintain sanity. Joking about something does not necessarily preclude caring about it.
And i agree that we cannot know, but can suspect, the motives of those in power in government, industry, the military and the financial world. How impossible it seems, that anyone could be at the top of any of those structures and still hold good values. With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
i don't know what i would have done in President Bush's place, because he has access to much information that we do not. But i support the action being taken, because
(1.) i believe Iraq does possess weaponry capable of inflicting widespread death and suffering, and would not be shy about using it. [This constitutes "clear & present danger"] (2.) Saddam Hussein has demonstrated himself to be homicidal, unfeeling, dishonest, untrustworthy, out-and-out evil, and MUST be removed from power for the sake of the entire world. (3.) Every possible caution is being taken to prevent/minimize loss of life, health, even property.
As far as how the world looks at us, true leadership is never popular. If the choice comes down to what is best vs. what is popular, it's a no-brainer.
i also agree that there is only one humanity, in the sense that all lives are equal in value. But differences, based on ethnicity, religion, political affiliation, and scores of other criteria DO still exist, and our simply not acknowledging them will not make them disappear. We must teach what we believe while simultaneously dealing with the extant situations we face.
As Joe points out, we could debate these points for the rest of our lives without arriving at satisfactory conclusions. i prefer to think of these exchanges of views as times of sharing and learning, although not everyone will agree. Personally, i gain a lot of insight from considering the ideas of others, and am grateful for the opportunity to do so. It is not so important to be proven to have been right, as it is to learn what IS right and to be aligned with that rightness, even if it calls for the reversal of my position. Thanks for your contributions.
Gratefully,
al Hartman
P.S.-- Maybe i blinked, David,
but did you just praise the Lord?!
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David Mauldin
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« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2003, 12:16:57 am » |
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To date: No Weapons Found! Hundreds of innocent children, men,women civilians dead, wounded mamed psychologicly/mentaly scared for life.
The O peration
I raqi
L iberation
cost the citizens of America 11 million $ a day
While schools and libraries are laying off people.
Bush just signed a tax cut so that rich people can invest more of there money in tips. 7 U.S soldiers died this week from ambushes. CAN BUSH REALY CONTINUE THIS?
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Joe Sperling
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« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2003, 12:36:42 am » |
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To Date:
Millions of people liberated from a dictator who tortured
and imprisoned and gassed his own people.
Millions of dollars meant for the people of Iraq found
hidden and used to build vast palaces while citizens starved.
Great Hope for the people of Iraq to rebuild and really
live lives to the fullest. Freedom to millions of Kurdish
citizens gassed by Hussein.
Yes---American lives were lost and civilians did suffer---
but think of past wars when whole cities were bombed
with thousands upon thousands of civilian casualties.
I'm glad my tax dollars are being used to free a people long
held in bondage and fear. if you still think this was all done
for OIL then you have your head in the sand.
--Joe
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editor
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« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2003, 12:55:27 am » |
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To date: No Weapons Found! Hundreds of innocent children, men,women civilians dead, wounded mamed psychologicly/mentaly scared for life.
The O peration
I raqi
L iberation
cost the citizens of America 11 million $ a day
While schools and libraries are laying off people.
Bush just signed a tax cut so that rich people can invest more of there money in tips. 7 U.S soldiers died this week from ambushes. CAN BUSH REALY CONTINUE THIS?
Hey David, I am one of those "rich" people who is going to get a very small amount of MY money back. Do you know that I pay taxes so that the homeless can get medical care, but I am not allowed to go to their clinics? 15 year old girls, from bad families can get preganant, and I am responsible to pay for their pre-natal care. But did you know that when my wife was pregnant, she was not allowed access to any of the services that an irresponsible 15 year old had? This girl, who got knocked-up, will be eligible for free education, medical care, HUD housing, even a car! My daughter will have to get a job in order to pay for school. If she was to get pregnant at 15, I would have to pay for it, because I am "rich." I will also have to pay for her college. I am not saying that these people should be denied care, what I am saying is that if I am paying for it, I should be able to benefit from the service I am forced to provide! The fact is, I don't want to pay for them, any more than they want to pay for me! Yet, they somehow think that their taxes should be lower, and mine higher. Ever hear of the Boston Tea Party? As for Iraq, I agree with you. I think using the presence of WMD as the main reason to sell the war was a big mistake. I think Bush should have just said it was part of the war on terror. I think most people understand this, and are willing to give him a pass. Then again, if we do find huge caches of WMD, there will still be people who protest the war. Iraqi's can protest now, since we have liberated them, which should make our culture of protesters happy! David, your analysis of the underhanded, less than truthfull, way in which we justified Operation Iraqi Freedom, is right on the money. Had I been able to prosecute the war, I would have called it, Operation TMC. (Texaco, Mobil, Chevron) Then we could pump the oil, drive our SUV's, rebuild Iraq's infrastructure, and stabilize the region by stomping on radical Islam. While I understand that many might be offended by this, at least it is honest and straightforward.  Brent |
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MGov
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« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2003, 01:08:36 am » |
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I agree with Joe with regard to the Americans' involvement in liberating Iraq.
If it was for the oil, I don't think Bush would have done it this way, because he ran the risk of antagonizing 'brother' Arab nations by declaring war on Iraq.
Also, the money spent to date to liberate Iraq could have been used for oil instead.
My thought is that Iraq presented a threat to the nation and hence Bush chose to do something about it. The Iraqi people benefitted by being liberated as well.
etc. etc. etc.
M
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Arthur
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« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2003, 01:12:48 am » |
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To date: No Weapons Found! Hundreds of innocent children, men,women civilians dead, wounded mamed psychologicly/mentaly scared for life.
The O peration
I raqi
L iberation
cost the citizens of America 11 million $ a day
While schools and libraries are laying off people.
Bush just signed a tax cut so that rich people can invest more of there money in tips. 7 U.S soldiers died this week from ambushes. CAN BUSH REALY CONTINUE THIS?
Um, first off, it was O peration I raqi F reedom not, Operation Iraqi Liberation, but that was cute. I dunno what OIF is supposed to spell, tho  Secondly, ok even if no WOMD are found, um...what about the mass graves of 10,000+ plus bodies? I guess it was ok for the dictator to do that with the rest of the world just standing by and saying, "Give peace a chance." No doubt, Sodom himself coined the phrase. I mean, hey, how can he be going about mass-murdering thousands of men, women and children with all this fighting going on? Can't you leave a man in peace? Give peace a chance! |
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editor
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« Reply #54 on: May 31, 2003, 01:17:25 am » |
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I agree with Joe with regard to the Americans' involvement in liberating Iraq.
If it was for the oil, I don't think Bush would have done it this way, because he ran the risk of antagonizing 'brother' Arab nations by declaring war on Iraq.
Also, the money spent to date to liberate Iraq could have been used for oil instead.
My thought is that Iraq presented a threat to the nation and hence Bush chose to do something about it. The Iraqi people benefitted by being liberated as well.
etc. etc. etc.
M
There is no doubt that the Iraqi people will gain the most from our war. The UN was tenderly giving humanitarian aid to help the human suffering that came about as a result of sanctions.... and Hussein kept the money in vaults in his palaces!! Tanks and bombs did far more to help Iraq's human population than the UN's corrupt humanitarian aid. What's a humanitarian anyways? Is that someone who eats only humans? I just look at it like this: We spent time, money and blood to help these people. They can't pump their oil without our help, why not let us sell some of the oil? It's not like the people ever got the benefit of it anyways, Hussein kept all the proceeds. If we took over, and gave them jobs, they would be far better off than before. Even better, we could modernize their oil industry and make it "ENVIRONMENTALLY SOUND" and then, after being repaid via cheap oil, return everything to their control, similiar to Japan, Phillipines, Panama, etc. The way they pump oil over there now is an ecological disaster. They need tremendous help in this area. David, are most war protesters also of the green persuasion when it comes to the environment? Brent |
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sfortescue
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« Reply #55 on: May 31, 2003, 01:19:27 am » |
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I think that another hidden agenda of the United States in Iraq was to help Israel.
This counts as a point in our favor in God's eyes.
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David Mauldin
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« Reply #56 on: May 31, 2003, 02:21:00 am » |
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« Last Edit: May 31, 2003, 02:23:00 am by David Mauldin »
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editor
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« Reply #57 on: May 31, 2003, 02:28:07 am » |
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Actually, David, as a history teacher, you may recall the period of time in our nation's history called the Cold War. Russian had/has WMD pointed at us, and we did plenty about it. However, there is a big difference between a country that has WMD, and doesn't use it, and a country that will light off the first one they get! Radical Islam, or a guy like Hussein, with a nuke is a much worse picture than a guy like Putin with 10,000 nukes. Putin has some rational thought, whereas these others are so blinded by their hatred of the Jews, and the Great Satan, that they are NOT rational. Each situation is different, and to simplify it, as you have done, is not totally honest. Of, course, I do grant you that the way the war has been conducted thus far is also not totally honest, so some of your points are well taken. Brent |
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Arthur
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« Reply #58 on: May 31, 2003, 03:09:22 am » |
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Somebody slap him before he goes silly. >Smack< Where's Patton when you need him. David, just answer a few questions: 1. Were there or were there not graves found with thousands of dead bodies? Bodies of men, women and children that Saddam had executed on a whim. 2. Were there or were there not hundreds of men who had their ears surgically cut off because Saddam said so? 3. Did they (the Iraqi people) or did they not live in constant fear of what Saddam might do to them? 4. If the US didn't come in and kick Saddam's butt, would Saddam still be doing the same kinds of things today? Now I ask you, were the Iraqi people better off under Saddam? Or was it worth it for American soldiers to lay down their lives so that the Iraqi people could be set free? Some Iraqi people got killed in the process. Yes, that is lamentable. But they would have been killed by Sadam eventually or else live lives in constant fear. Compared to the number of Iraqi's killed by Sadam, the number who died in the war was miniscule! Use your head, man. "Those who would give up liberty for safety deserve neither." "The Tree of Liberty must be periodically fertilized with the blood of patriots and tyrants. " "Live free or die." |
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David Mauldin
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« Reply #59 on: May 31, 2003, 03:16:00 am » |
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Arthur I agree that human rights were at stake and this (as I have said ) is the strongest justification. Yet it doesn't constitute a "Clear and present Danger" to the U.S. which Bush needed to declare a "Crusade" er a war! If it is true that we are there for the good of the people then why hasn't Bush turned it over to the U.N.? Why haven't we apologized to the Iraqi people for putting this guy in power? Oh by the way do you realize that under Saddams government women had the right to wear western clothing? Get an education? Hold down a job? A tremendous contrast to the nations around Iraq. It doesn't justify the wrongs he did I just think its interesting. I see Bush turning America into a dominating imperialstic power. Does this make you feel more secure? Not me! I see it as a step backwards. I think there were a thousand options to the problem that would have been much more civilized. We don't need Patton to continue the cycle of war. we need solutions
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« Last Edit: May 31, 2003, 03:42:52 am by David Mauldin »
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