Existing Assemblies

[Bluejay]

I think existing assemblies are more of a circus act than Barnum and Bailey's.

[Mark C.]

Hi Luke and Others!
  It is good to hear from you again, though I must disagree with your view.
   It is difficult to respond to your castigation of the BB as you have leveled many charges, but you have not been specific.
   I will not pile on here with a point by point rebuttal, but I think Will had some really great answers in his response to you.
  His point regarding interpretation of the Bible is a very good one and one I've tried to make in the past as well.  What I see in his recollection of GG scripture barrages is the fact that a myriad of Bible verses do not a coherent theology make, nor does it provide light to the world.
   To limit discussion on the BB to a "spiritual dimension" where we must provide proof texts for every sentence would not reflect a true spirituality.  On this kind of plane humanity has no place, and a kind of false reality is created.
This false reality never asks the question, "what is really going on in my life?  There is a kind of separation between what I believe, and my own experience.
   An example of the above would be those who believe in sinless perfection.  They have honed an argument and approach all dissenters with their irrefutable logic, but meanwhile they deny the rampant sin in their own hearts.
   If my comments above fit your "psychological profile" then I understand why you say what you said, but I don't see it as psychology.  I see it as just being a plain ol' human sinner saved by grace who is honest and humble in his pursuit of God.
                               God Bless, Mark  

[Matt]

Hi Luke and Others!
  It is good to hear from you again, though I must disagree with your view.
   It is difficult to respond to your castigation of the BB as you have leveled many charges, but you have not been specific.
   I will not pile on here with a point by point rebuttal, but I think Will had some really great answers in his response to you.
  His point regarding interpretation of the Bible is a very good one and one I've tried to make in the past as well.  What I see in his recollection of GG scripture barrages is the fact that a myriad of Bible verses do not a coherent theology make, nor does it provide light to the world.
   To limit discussion on the BB to a "spiritual dimension" where we must provide proof texts for every sentence would not reflect a true spirituality.  On this kind of plane humanity has no place, and a kind of false reality is created.
This false reality never asks the question, "what is really going on in my life?  There is a kind of separation between what I believe, and my own experience.
   An example of the above would be those who believe in sinless perfection.  They have honed an argument and approach all dissenters with their irrefutable logic, but meanwhile they deny the rampant sin in their own hearts.
   If my comments above fit your "psychological profile" then I understand why you say what you said, but I don't see it as psychology.  I see it as just being a plain ol' human sinner saved by grace who is honest and humble in his pursuit of God.
                               God Bless, Mark  

You're kind of late, Mark. Luke got rid of his account a while ago and we have moved on from that post. I'm not surprised though that you disagree with him - sometimes the truth hurts. But then again the truth will set you free. Take care, Mark.

- Matt

[Mark Kisla]

GG used to gleefully tell the story how his noble Greek brethren in Greece upon discovering that a local minister there was involved in corruption gathered at the meeting shouting in unity " HE IS NOT WORTHY", "HE IS NOT WORTHY" because he was unfit for service in the house of God.
 I would like to start a collection to fly those noble brethren to where Tim is preaching,

[Mark C.]

Hi Matt!
  You'll have to excuse me for my tardinesss Matt, but I just now noticed this thread's existence (some Moderator, huh )
  I do hope Luke continues to post and if not post then read.  
  There is much to be gained from allowing our positions to be challenged.  Paul reasoned in the Scripture with those who were interested; some listened, and some departed after only one word.  I think those who stayed and talked were better off than those who left the discussion.
   God's truth only hurts those who reject it; for those that receive it, freedom is gained.  Our interaction helps us to see that sometimes our strongly held opinions are wrong and reveals a falsely held bias that we may have had.  
     Since all of us see through a glass darkly regarding many things (especially re. ourselves) humble discussion can be a wonderful way to dispel some of that darkness.
    I can attest to such a work in my own heart from interaction on this BB, and there are many others who can also give testimony to this fact.
  Yes, there is a risk of miscommunication, of evil persons falsely accusing us, of us having to admit to making a mistake; but if we don't take the risk of  thinking/talking about these things we may lose the opportunity of learning some precious lessons.
   My desire, along with most on this BB, is to really gain God's insight into who He really is, what the Gospel really is, and what does it all mean for my life now.  If our discoveries challenge our views we must be willing to change.  
                               God Bless,  Mark  
 

[MGov]

Should TimG just abandon those who are looking to him for continuity?
Does the fact that he is very humbled by this whole situation, change anything?

M

[sfortescue]

On a similar note,

     George wanted us to believe that what was good and normal is for leaders to be authoritarian and look good on the outside by doing stupendous deeds of preaching and missionary journeys.  But what of mercy, humility, and love?  I'm still scratching my head at how it was that I came to accept George's portrayal of a righteous man as accurate, when those basic Christian tenets were lacking.  Could anyone look at George and say, "This man is a humble and loving and gentle like Jesus"?

     I don't think I did entirely accept it, at least not down in my heart.  It was that pea under the mattresses (sometimes more like a boulder)--no doubt that was the Holy Spirit saying, "Wake up and smell the hypocrisy!".  But the ministry as a whole still seemed to be doing the will of God (i.e. reaching the lost, lives lived in devotion to God, etc.)

     Sure, we could say, "George is a godly man."  But we couldn't honestly say that he's meek and lowly in heart.  Now that just doesn't make any sense.  Then what was our definition of a "godly" man?  Didn't that just cause some red flags to go up?  Oh, but being meek wouldn't be overcoming -- oh yeah, that's it.

My husband had similar thoughts.  It was always said of Geo., and we said it, too, "he's a godly man".  But no one ever said he is Christ-like, so what did we mean?  What were we thinking?  Apparently we weren't thinking enough at all.  BW

[Oscar]

Should TimG just abandon those who are looking to him for continuity?
Does the fact that he is very humbled by this whole situation, change anything?

M

I paid one visit to the Fullerton assembly after the fall of GG and heard Tim G. give a short "word".  It was a collection of irrelevent verses that made it sound as if God had given them a promise to "do a new thing".  

As far as I could see it was a continuation of the false mysticisim that so pervades the minds of the assembly folks.  It showed me that there is a continuation there of the bogus ideas that Plymouth Bretherenism promotes.

As to the degree of Tim's "humbling", I have no idea.  

Mgov, how do you know?

Thomas

[editor]

Should TimG just abandon those who are looking to him for continuity?
Does the fact that he is very humbled by this whole situation, change anything?

M

Here is the deal, Tim has been asked to lead, but everyone in his Assembly-lite insists that he isn't leading.  Typical Geftakys double-speak.  This is the first warning that something is very wrong.

Eric Farian was a full-time worker in San Diego.  I didn't know that he and Tim were going into business together, but if they are, I fear for Eric.  Tim hasn't had a job since highschool, and he really knows how to spend  money.

The fact that he lost all is a sad by-product that often comes about when cult leaders are exposed.  I do feel bad about this, but it doesn't change the fact that Tim was complicit, at the highest levels.  Please note, the rest of George's family hasn't been hurt.  They weren't involved in "uncle George's cult."  (That is what his nephew told me)

Should he abandon those who are looking to him for continuity?

Good question.  The answer is no, he shouldn't abandon them.  Instead, he should carefully explain to them why it is wrong for them to feel like they need him.  He needs to tell them what kind of man he is, and how blind and/or corrupt he was when he was leading, and then tell them that because he loves them, he can't lead them.  He should insist that the group get
input from outside the carcass.

Does the fact that he has been humbled change the situation?

No, humility and sorrow does not bring victims of drunk drivers back from the dead, neither does it make pregnant 15 year old girls un-pregnant.  Esau was sorry, and shed many tears over his loss, but couldn't seem to repent.

Humility may very well change a person's future, but it can't change the past. Tim's past demands that he not repeat the same thing in the future, which is exactly what he is doing, by leading.

Brent

BTW, in the last 4 months, how has Tim demonstrated this amazing degree of humility?  

[Matt]

Eric Farian was a full-time worker in San Diego.  I didn't know that he and Tim were going into business together, but if they are, I fear for Eric.  Tim hasn't had a job since highschool, and he really knows how to spend  money.

Eric Ferrien was not a full-time worker in San Diego - he was a leading brother. I hope you're not going to start in now on the Ferrien family.

[MGov]

Brent asked:
BTW, in the last 4 months, how has Tim demonstrated this amazing degree of humility?

Thomas asked:
As to the degree of Tim's "humbling", I have no idea.  
Mgov, how do you know?

I asked:
Does the fact that he is very humbled by this whole situation, change anything?

Having an unrepentant father.
Having a brother whose initials are DG.
Having all you have labored for the last 30(?) years come crashing down.
Having sacrificed a career for the sake of 'the work'.
Assembly-lite from assembly-strong.
etc. etc. etc.

These are the humbling experiences that I was referring to.

M

[al Hartman]

MGov listed the following factors in Tim Geftakys' life:
..............................................................
Having an unrepentant father.
Having a brother whose initials are DG.
Having all you have labored for the last 30(?) years come crashing down.
Having sacrificed a career for the sake of 'the work'.
Assembly-lite from assembly-strong.
etc. etc. etc.

These are the humbling experiences that I was referring to.
................................................................

These experiences COULD BE humbling,
but ONLY to someone who is already humble at heart.

al Hartman

[editor]

Eric Ferrien was not a full-time worker in San Diego - he was a leading brother. I hope you're not going to start in now on the Ferrien family.

Eric indeed was a full-time worker, along with Tim G. , Mike Zack, Danny Edwards,  George G., David G. and Jim Hayman, although the latter was removed a year prior to the collapse.  

I thought we would start in on the Ferrien family in the same way "we" did on Tony Edward's family.  Are you OK with this Matt, or is it different because Tony was not a leader and Eric was?  When you say, "start in now on the Ferrien family," do you mean like "we" did to Tony Edwards?

Can someone please send a false email out on Eric?

(In case anyone is worried, I am only making a point here, no one  is going to treat the Ferrrien's in the manner that Tony Edward's was treated.  No, "we" will just stick to the facts.  He was indeed a full-time worker AND a leading brother.  Matt, ALL full-time workers were also leading brothers, and several of them elders as well.)

Brent

[MGov]

Eric Ferrien was not a full-time worker in San Diego - he was a leading brother.

Matt is correct in his statement.  Eric was only a 'full time' worker after he returned to Fullerton about a year ago.

M

[editor]

Eric Ferrien was not a full-time worker in San Diego - he was a leading brother.

Matt is correct in his statement.  Eric was only a 'full time' worker after he returned to Fullerton about a year ago.

M

Oh?  So he was a full-time worker, but not when he was in San Diego?  Where did he live last December, in Fullerton or SD?

I know that it is slanderous to be called a full-time worker, so I don't want to call him that in the wrong town, but I do KNOW that he was a FTW.  If I have his city of FTW wrong, I apologize for my error!  

Did he ever travel to SD to teach and counsel as a FTW?

This is a major point, and I want to make sure we get it right!