Existing Assemblies

[outdeep]

When the Assembly moved into the Brea facility (technically still the Assembly in Fullerton), they moved into a business park that provided signage.  What do you put on the sign if your group doesn't have a name?

So, they put the descriptive term, "A gathering of Christians".  

I always wanted to sneak over one night and put similar labels on everything else - "A parking space", "A fire hydrant", "A window", "A tree", etc.

The things we dream up to point out the sillyness of it all!

[BeckyW]

When we first came out in Omaha, Phill aked if he could give by check.  The brother he asked laughed loudly and said, "Who're you going to make the check out to...God??"

Remembering,
Becky

P.S.  The first Sunday after the excomm. letter was read here in Annandale, the brother giving the announcements said, " Our offerings are a part of our worship.  There's a box in the back of the room.  The money is used for the work of the Lord both here and (pause) ummm... here."  (slightly embarassed laughter)

[matthew r. sciaini]

Dave:

Not to be a nitpick, but the last assembly building WAS in Fullerton--right on the edge, however.  We actually outreached more to La Habra and Brea than to Fullerton, as far as door-to-door was concerned.  Our building was closer to the city halls of those two other towns than to Fullerton's city hall.

At one time I actually thought that the Lord had moved us there because He wanted to work in these towns.  Some things happened, but now since everything has happened I wonder if He didn't move us to a remote corner of the city in order to keep the assembly from doing more damage than it had already done in people's lives.

My one-and-a-half cents,

Matt Sciaini

[outdeep]

Thanks for the correction, Matt.  

I joined the Assembly just after the Hillcrest Park days and left just before the end of the Woman's Assistant League Days.

So, I never set foot in the "near Brea" facility.  Of course, if I did, I would have had to worn a sign that said, "A Visitor".

-Dave

[M2]

...
In conclusion, the Geftakys assemblies have been clearly proven to be abusive, dysfunctional churches where many of the leaders have abused the members.  Since George Geftakys has been discredited, some of these groups are still trying to continue as churches.  In order for these groups to evolve into healthy churches, a lot of honesty is required.  As Jeff VanVonderen says in the book, “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse,” “…the message to addicts is, ‘Get honest or die!’”  This applies to churches as well as individuals.
...

I do not see this kind of honesty in the local gathering here. I also know of other gatherings who are not and have not promoted open and honest inquiry and discussion of assembly practices.

Pages 68 and 69 from Subtle Power...  'The Can't Talk Rule' is very insightful. Maybe I'll scan it in later and post it.

Marcia

[mithrandir]

I actually have a more serious question.  When the military performs air strikes, they have a period of "battle damage assessment" afterward.  I know that a number of you have been busy sending e-mails and letters and making phone calls to expose the activities of existing assemblies.  What results have you had?  And is there any fresh news on the status of existing assemblies?

mithrandir

What's the news about the concert in the dark?

Marcia

The concert in the dark happened last Friday.  I don't know what happened there, since I wasn't present.  I was hanging out with some friends when someone came up and said, "Jack is playing at Tri-City Park.  One of us wants to go.  How about the rest of you?"  The rest of us said, "Nah!"  Just the thought of going made my body hurt.  So we all stayed where we were and had an enjoyable evening.  

I have been warning friends at work about the Geftakys groups, telling them that they might want to mention them to their church youth and college groups.  I also e-mailed them the link to the Rick Ross website.

Since you mentioned concerts, I thought I'd share portions of some song lyrics that pretty much say what I've been thinking about all that's happened.  Hope no one minds!

Regarding George, the seminars, and all the wonderful   teaching we received,

"Cause he seemed like a miracle
  I ate it up like cereal
  Ah, but it was something like shrapnel..."

Regarding the collapse of the house of Geftakys,

"Get the kids and bring a sweater,
  Dry is good and wind is better,
  Count the years, you always knew it,
  Strike a match, go on and do it..."

written about someone who goes home and burns down the house in order to start a new life.

Then there's this, regarding the process of leaving the old garbage behind and starting new:

"Every now and then I can see that I'm getting somewhere,
  Where I have to go is so deep - I was angry back then
  And you know I still am,
  I have lost too much sleep, and I'm gonna find it"

Of course, when I get really mad - say, when I remember a particularly "good" time I had in the Assembly, I think of this:

"I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
  Take a bow for the new revolution
  Smile and grin at the change all around
  Pick up my guitar and play
  Just like yesterday
  Then I'll get on my knees and pray
  We don't get fooled again
  No, no!"

mithrandir  

[outdeep]

Clarence,

When I left in 1990, we used to sing

"I've been through the desert with a church with no name
It's good to get out of the pain
In the desert, you can't remember your name
Cause their ain't no one there to give you no fame"

(From America, A Horse with No Name)


At the time, the line from the Eagles Hotel California was applicable as well describing the then difficult exit process:

"You can check out any time you like
but you can never leave."


-Dave

PS:  I never knew you actually sung, Clarence.  Jack always had the microphones set so you could only hear him and his guitar with the perpetually breaking string. (:>)

[vernecarty]

The concert in the dark happened last Friday.  I don't know what happened there...

Of course you don't - it was a concert in the dark m'lad!!      
Verne

[al Hartman]

quote from Matthew R. Sciaini:At one time I actually thought that the Lord had moved us there because He wanted to work in these towns.  Some things happened, but now since everything has happened I wonder if He didn't move us to a remote corner of the city in order to keep the assembly from doing more damage than it had already done in people's lives.

Matthew,
     This is a distinct possibility, or, The Lord may not have moved the meeting place at all-- He may have just let it be moved.

quote from Marcia:I do not see this kind of honesty in the local gathering here. I also know of other gatherings who are not and have not promoted open and honest inquiry and discussion of assembly practices.

Marcia,
     You won't see it in the gathering if it isn't already there.  Effectual fervent prayer avails much, and the honesty you hope to see can break forth in individuals who are willing to see & accept the truth, and act accordingly (repent and come out).  If this happens in one or more of the leaders, many may be blessed as a result, and you will witness the honesty outside the gathering.
     Thank you for posting the "Can't Talk" Rule on the Why Leaders Are Responsible thread.

Clarence (Mithrandir) & Dave,

     Well said sung!

al Hartman





     

[vernecarty]

I appreciate Al's post.
Let us not forget our disussion of anger is taking place in the context of what happened in the assemblies.
Clearly, Scripture does not condemn anger in and of itself. We are instucted to be angry and sin not. The Lord Himself on many occasions in his perfect humanity displayed this emotion.
I want to speak to some of you from the bottom of my heart.
 When I first read Rachel's account on this website and the horrific stories about Judy appearing in meetings with cuts and bruises as well as David,
When I read about the absolutely horrific things George Geftakys was saying in public about his own grand-daughter, when I read about the way George had absolutely bruatlized one of the dearest sisters( Diane S.) that I have ever known etc. etc. ad nauseam....

I thought of all the so-called men of stature in leadership in the asemblies.
I thought about all the saints who prided themselves on the "heavenly vision" they had.
I thought about all the workers who were supposed to be the spiritual elite among God's people...
I thought about the families, marriages, lives -  totally destroyed...

Yet while both physical and spiritual blood was flowing freely...no one got angry...!

Those of you who come onto this web-site and berate and condemn those of us who have shed bitter tears over our sin of complicity, and our unspeakable and dismal failure to act, lest, God forbid, we would be perceived as beng angry...I want to remind you of our dark legacy of shame. I want you to stop your pompous sermonising about "grace" and "humility" without regard to proper context. I want to hear you admit, that it was our shameful cowardice, our Godless idolatry, our spiritual dullnes, and ultimately our willful disobedience, that failed to make us angry during the assembly reign of terror.
I want to ask some of you pious pontificators:
HAVE WE LEARNED NOTHING?

friends...there is a time for righteous anger...if you feel called to excercise the gift of mercy do it with diligence. Please do not harshly condemn those who feel called to rebuke sharply...there were obviously too few in the assemblies...


Constrained by His mighty love,
Verne
p.s. Brent Tr0ckman, thanks again for having been the conscience of the assembly community. This is a debt that can never be repaid and will not be forgotten- not while I can post.

[editor]

Let me see if I understand this.  Brent, you are saying that the fact that we all were acting like a church and that we all understood that we were not "pooling our money together" to buy something, rather we were giving our money to church ministers ("The Lord's servants")  to carry on church business, regardless of the fact that this church was not incorporated, is cause enough to prosecute George?

The IRS prosecute people for income tax evasion, right?  Could it be proved that what was given to George was income--"income" as defined by the IRS?  

Or was it, as Tom argues, just a matter of a bunch of adults using their money however they wanted to--no documents signed, no legal entity, no records, just money spent at our discretion.

I lean towards the notion that it is income because the thing is, money was not just spent for something willy nilly.  Money was given directly to George.  And that's income. Aside from direct personal gifts, let's consider the money in the box.  
We gave it to "the church" to run church business ("the work of the Lord here and abroad").  We gave it with the understanding (an oral agreement reaffirmed every week for years) that the leading brothers, and ultimately George, were using the money for church business.  If it wasn't used for church business then that is fraud, isn't it?  And if we can apply the precedent set by the Johnsonites, it can be considered fraud even if the church is not officially registered.  Also, the money that George recieved, if not properly recorded as being used for church business is income.  

I dunno, my take on it.  Who's a lawyer?  Maybe we can get Bob Anderson to wiegh in on this, what do you think?  Oh but I think he'd probably want to explain what exactly went on in David's court case.  

Arthur  

What I am saying is this:

We gave money to a church that we thought was legit, honest, and about God's business.  We did not give money to a man, or to pay someone's salary, or anything like that.  We ridiculed people who were salaried clergymen!  We derided churches who had a business meeting.  Read Testimony to Jesus, and these thought are communicated in the first chapter.

If the money was used for anything that was not, "church business," then fraud was committed.  Bob Anderson told me that my numbers in the Rick Ross piece I wrote, "What happens to the Money?" were "not far off at all."  He didn't know the exact amount, because there was no accounting of it, but he felt that I was within a hundred grand or so.

Samuel Ochengele is not a millionaire, so George can't say he gave all the money to Samuel.  

Bottom line, I absolutely guarantee that fraud was committed, pockets were lined, money was put in foreign accounts, and family members were shown favoritism over the other workers.

How many of you feel good about the fact that your tithes were used to implant tissue from aborted fetuses into David Geftakys?  This alone cost more than 40,000.00, cash.  Do you feel good about this?  

How many of you, upon giving money into the box-on-the-back-table, are happy about the fact that it ended up under the hood of one of David's cars?

No records, mingling of funds, use of funds for things other than "The Work of the Lord,"---all of this means taxes owed.  I am 100% confident in this, and have spoken to people who know.

The IRS needs records.  Anyone who can document how much they gave only need pick up the phone.  Bank withdrawels that fit a pattern, computer programs, charitable contributions on tax returns, all of this is evidence.  

Just because you gave in cash doesn't mean you can't document what you gave.  10% is the same, whether it's cash or check.  Did you habitually take cash back from paycheck deposits?  Did you make ATM withdrawels on the first every month?

Phone calls people.  That's all it takes.   It's a no brainer.  Gifts my arse!!!

Brent

[M2]

This is a true story.  A LB of a local assembly had decided that it would be a good idea to dilute the wine used for the breaking of bread with grape juice, so he added grape juice to the partially full wine bottles, screwed back on the tops and placed the bottles back in the cabinet in the brothers house where the meetings were held. In the middle of the night the LB was awoken by the sound of an explosion and rushing liquid. He thought that a pipe had burst, but the bottles had exploded because of the fermentation of the grape juice that was added.  I guess the LB didn't remember our Lord's warning about putting new wine in old wine bottles.

Matthew 9:17
"Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved."

The Geftaky's system is an old bottle.  Anything that we can add to it to attempt to improve it may end up destroying that which has been added.  The dear saints in the assembly deserve a new bottle.  Perhaps certain Geftakys leaders who have not stepped down should consider this.

The LBs diluting of the wine reminded me of a joke that I heard concerning the watering down of some paint.

A member of a church was given the job of painting the building where the church gathered.  Enough paint was purchased for the painter to complete the job.  However, the man also needed his own house painted, so he decided to water down the paint so that there would be enough to paint both the church building and his house.  He completed the painting of the church building and then proceeded to paint his house.  He was very pleased with himself as he had just enough paint to complete both jobs.  Unfortunately it started to rain the next morning, and our paint diluter, noticed that the paint on his house was washing away.  He began to panic as he realized that the diluted paint would not hold up to the rain, so he rushed down to the church building to see how it fared.  Suddenly he heard a voice from above.  It said "Repaint and thin no more".  To the Geftakys Lodge I say "Repent and sin no more".

Malachi 4:1-3
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

So was Malachi the only Italian Prophet? (Ma - Law - Chee)

These are stories told to retread by an Ottawa LB.

Marcia

[enchilada]

The IRS needs records.  Anyone who can document how much they gave only need pick up the phone.  Bank withdrawels that fit a pattern, computer programs, charitable contributions on tax returns, all of this is evidence.  

Just because you gave in cash doesn't mean you can't document what you gave.  


Brent

Is there a statute of limitations for tax fraud?  How far back in years can the Geftakys fraud activity be considered in a case against him?  10 years?  The more the better.

[M2]

quote--
I also want to say that due to the recent shakeup in the ministry in the USA during the early part of this year, our Chinese friends were informed of what happened at the very beginning. Contrary to some reports that I have heard, I want to dispel any misinformation on this. The work in China is proceeding because the Lord is here in our midst. It is the Chinese who have taken up the mantle of the ministry here. They are leading the work here in loving compassion for the sheep and in unselfish devotion to the Lord. It is wonderful just to sit back and see the LORD do HIS work. We have received counsel and encouragement from prominent house church leaders, whom I will refrain from naming, here in both China and in Hong Kong. These are friends who suffered much in the past under totalitarianism and years of imprisonment for the Lord. They know what happened. They say the Lord is with us! Continue by faith! We will abide by their counsel because we know that the Lord is with them also. I have also received the same counsel from American and other international friends as well who are involved with other works and ministries. The saints are not exclusive here in China. There is a humility present with most of the saints. We are what we are by the grace of God.
--end-quote

Ing Ling Chin sent us this news about a month ago, but I neglected to read the entire email since it was addressed to my husband. My husband encouraged me to post this.

At the end of April a couple from Beijing stayed in our home for about 10 days. I personally witnessed their devotion and love for the Lord. They had not 'grieved' the Holy Spirit, and were/are still sensitive to His leading in their lives. I will have to agree that the China assemblies are more autonomous than the assemblies on the North American continent.

[editor]

At the end of April a couple from Beijing stayed in our home for about 10 days. I personally witnessed their devotion and love for the Lord. They had not 'grieved' the Holy Spirit, and were/are still sensitive to His leading in their lives. I will have to agree that the China assemblies are more autonomous than the assemblies on the North American continent.

And that is excellent news.  George's influence can be purged, but his control must be broken.  He didn't control all of the foreign groups.....Praise God!


Brent