Existing Assemblies

[editor]

Verne,   Samuel must have really bowled you over for you to give him such a free ride!  I am wondering how many messages, calls or letters Brent has from the foreign assemblies?  It wasn't that long ago that Samuel referred to George as"The Lord's Servant!"   He was peddling the same stuff and was either deceived or accountable...Which is it???Or is it a lot of both?

Verne, I'm sorry but this statement is rather hypocritical to me: "our foreign brethren appear to have been in possession of much more discernment and integrity"  
   On what do you base this...has any of them come out publicly and denounced the teachings of George or is it the same old lines that we've read here over and over again?   It seems to me that you are using a different measuring device.
   Like I said earlier, Brent must have tons of messages from Samuel and others.

Brent, I hope that you leave a forwarding address if you move so that one day, and I believe this will happen, you will receive numerous letters of apology and appreciation from former leaders and workers in this false ministry.

Thankful for Truth and Grace,  Tony Edwards

Hi Tony

I don't have any messages from Samuel.  Not a single one.  I have a few messages from France, and Holland, but none from Nigeria.  There could be several reasons for this, but I honestly don't know the real reason, and don't care to speculate at this time.  

If Samuel was able to please an arrogant, prideful, unentreatable, evil man like Verne, then he must be fairly clear about where he stands.  We all know that Verne is a totally one-sided follower of Brent Tr0ckman.

I think we need to keep an open mind, be patient, and view Samuel as a brother of like-precious faith, until he makes it clear that he is something else.  He can only do this by clear actions to the contrary.

My own take on "foreign" Assemblies is that they were still being courted by George, and had yet to be married by him.  For that reason, he had not exercised the control and abuse on them that he did with us.  They are probably in a different state that Fullerton or Omaha.  However, God, and only He, knows what is to happen.  We can only observe behavior and listen to words.  I am going to extend Christian Fellowship to Samuel, should I get the chance, and he is going to have to work very hard in order to convince me that he is a geftakysservant.

Brent

[Tony]

When I went to Amsterdam 2000 with my wife a few years ago (I work for Samaritan's Purse, so got a free ride to go there and help), I met hundreds of evangelists just like Samuel - in a good sense.  They were earnest, singleminded, and undestracted from the trappings we so often face as Christians in America.

I used to think what an unprecidented contact Samuel was for the ministry and was awed that George was invited to the exotic continent of Africa.  When I met all these evangelists from Africa, South America and Asia, I discovered that any one of us could fanangle a "journey".  Evanglists from small African villages would LOVE for an American teacher to travel to their home to help them with their work if we pay the expenses.   I got several invitations myself and you would too if you met them.

Steve Irons once made an off the cuff comment about how much the ministry helped Samuel.  Apparently, we sent money to him to help him build his home as well as supply a vehicle for his ministry.   I am sure it was a difficult position for Samuel wondering how to challenge George knowing how how much George's ministry provided for him materially (relatively speaking - a little goes a long way in a poor nation).   Not to mention the cultural challenges that Verne pointed out.

I was worried about Samuel being in this kind of bind and am thankful that he is apparently working his way out of it.

These are good points, David,   George used people wherever he could.   I do understand the cultural issues and know that that would be cause for certain actions or lack thereof.   The only foreign ministers I spoke to while in the Assembly were Herbert, Hendra and Samuel...and I consider each of those encounters as a blessing.   My only point was addressing a comment that the African etc. ministers had a higher level of discernment and integrity than the North American leaders.   Maybe true...partially true...just thought it was a rather generalized statement and wondered on what basis that Verne made this conclusion.  I totally agree that the Fullerton leaders are MUCH more accountable than others with some possible exceptions.  BTW, does anyone know the health status of Herbert?
God Bless, Tony

[vernecarty]

 My only point was addressing a comment that the African etc. ministers had a higher level of discernment and integrity than the North American leaders.   Maybe true...partially true...just thought it was a rather generalized statement and wondered on what basis that Verne made this conclusion.

Nothing "generalized" about it. Look at the facts. In not a single instance that I am aware of, was the movement to declare unequivocally that George Geftakys was an out an out fraud and to encourage people to deliver themselves from his wicked influence, initiated by those in leadership.
They were all dragged kcking and screaming to this acknowledgement. It was the departure and outspoken-ness of the rank and file that brought many gatherings to a stand-still.
Very few if any leaders displayed integrity, initiative and resolve in the face of developing events! They did the opposite in that they tried to protract George's sad legacy. Many of them are still doing so. Others would if they could.

Ing Ling's response, for example, to the news of George's conduct was immediate and resolute. He did not wait for approval from Fullerton. He conducted himself as a true steward of the House. Peter Kibas did the same as did others. I feel truly sorry for the men in Fullerton. They have an frightful amount to answer for...and they know it.
The staying of God's hand of judgment has little to do I think with any expectation on His part of their ultimate repentance. They had decades. I am of the opinion that there is much corrupt fruit yet to be borne from the long season of  sowing wicked seed.
So you see Tony, a mere reflection of the facts already at your disposal should fully dispel any confusion you have over the basis for my observations- no hypocrisy here my friend.
Verne
p.s.
Does anybody again reading Steve Iron's account of his departure have any doubt that George Geftakys and the enablers around him were steeped in conspiratorial wickedness?  They deliberately targeted Lee Irons because of his intellectual gifts and Steve unwisely handed him over to that Neanderthal Dan Notti. So far as the ultimate outcome concerning Lee, Steve was one of the lucky ones.  Some of these guys were too spiritually dense to see the effect this wicked man was having on the very ones they loved most - their families!There should be only one consistent policy toward those seeking to make excuses for or justify the reprehensible conduct of this evil cabal - incinerate 'em!

[mithrandir]

PTL for Brent who was willing to torch the testimony to Geftakysism at great 'cost' to himself.

Anyway, something to think about.
Lord bless,
Marcia

"Get the kids and bring a sweater,
  Dry is good and wind is better,
  Count the years, you always knew it,
  Strike a match, go on and do it..."

from "Sunny Came Home," by Shawn Colvin

Brent,

You asked if I knew whose name was on the deed for Cornerstone.  I don't.  I was never that well-connected with the assembly hierarchy.  

I thought some more about this last night.  Here's what I think should be done with the money (but then again, I'm just a bus driver...what do I know?).  I think there is one teacher there who should definitely get two months' severance pay plus enough cash to buy things she desperately needs.  This teacher (whom I shall not name) gave herself to the point of living in virtual poverty during the many years she labored at Cornerstone.  There is one other person who because of having a large family may qualify for severance pay - but I don't think anything more than this should be given to him.  All the rest should go to charity.  And all things should be done out in the open - no exceptions!

mithrandir

[enchilada]

The name of the former and new owners of the building is public record.  The county recorders office in Santa Ana has names and dollars exchanged for real estate transactions within Orange County.  All what's needed is an address to get the info.  Could somebody post the building's address?  With it, I can go to Santa Ana to get the info and post it on this BB.  It could be a nice addition to the record.  

[mithrandir]

The name of the former and new owners of the building is public record.  The county recorders office in Santa Ana has names and dollars exchanged for real estate transactions within Orange County.  All what's needed is an address to get the info.  Could somebody post the building's address?  With it, I can go to Santa Ana to get the info and post it on this BB.  It could be a nice addition to the record.  

I'll get the building address.

mithrandir

[M2]

Does anybody again reading Steve Iron's account of his departure have any doubt that George Geftakys and the enablers around him were steeped in conspiratorial wickedness?  So far as the ultimate outcome concerning Lee, Steve was one of the lucky ones.  Some of these guys were too spiritually dense to see the effect this wicked man was having on the very ones they loved most - their families!There should be only one consistent policy toward those seeking to make excuses for or justify the reprehensible conduct of this evil cabal - incinerate 'em!

Verne,

I don't recommend that you apply for a 'diplomatic' position anytime soon; maybe a hell, fire, and brimstone preacher would suit you better.

Marcia

[vernecarty]

Does anybody again reading Steve Iron's account of his departure have any doubt that George Geftakys and the enablers around him were steeped in conspiratorial wickedness?  So far as the ultimate outcome concerning Lee, Steve was one of the lucky ones.  Some of these guys were too spiritually dense to see the effect this wicked man was having on the very ones they loved most - their families!There should be only one consistent policy toward those seeking to make excuses for or justify the reprehensible conduct of this evil cabal - incinerate 'em!

Verne,

I don't recommend that you apply for a 'diplomatic' position anytime soon; maybe a hell, fire, and brimstone preacher would suit you better.

Marcia

Why Marcia...why on earth would you think such a thing? And I thought you had found me to be the perfect gentleman!
(except of course, and some people just don't get this, when I am dealing with spiritual thugs and criminals)
Verne

[mithrandir]

The property once known as the site of Cornerstone Academy, now Heritage Christian School, is located here:

Heritage Christian School
1620 N. Placentia Avenue
Fullerton, CA 92831

It is located on the southwest corner of Placentia Avenue and Topaz Lane in Fullerton.

mithrandir

[editor]

I don't recommend that you apply for a 'diplomatic' position anytime soon; maybe a hell, fire, and brimstone preacher would suit you better.
Marcia

Actually, there was a time when we, here in the USA, practiced "gunboat diplomacy,"  and "Big Stick" diplomacy.  Verne would have been a good diplomat in those days.  

However, today our unity is in diversity, and we want to build national defense through awareness and sensitivity.  I agree with you Marcia, Verne would be a terrible diplomat in today's world.

Brent

[enchilada]

The property once known as the site of Cornerstone Academy, now Heritage Christian School, is located here:

Heritage Christian School
1620 N. Placentia Avenue
Fullerton, CA 92831

It is located on the southwest corner of Placentia Avenue and Topaz Lane in Fullerton.

mithrandir

Thanks, I got some other chores to do in Santa Ana next week, so I'll post the public record that's available on the property asap.

[mithrandir]

Fall has arrived.  Yesterday was the last day of summer, I believe (or is it today?).  As the end of the year approaches, we look forward to many things.  And one of those things, I'm afraid, is the need to sound another warning about the existing Geftakys assemblies.

Specifically, as the end of the year approaches, many of these assemblies will begin planning Christmas project outreaches to juvenile institutions.  While it is commendable to visit those in prison, the assemblies are not fit for this work.  Sure, they will preach the Gospel, but they will also try to recruit young men and women who are about to be released.  The last thing one of these kids needs is to get out of jail, only to join a Geftakys assembly.

So I am asking that we send out warnings to the youth chaplains at the juvenile detention facilities in our localities, in those places where a Geftakys assembly continues to exist.  If you live in Fullerton, Placentia or Riverside, and you were formerly involved in the Orange County Juvenile Hall Christmas projects, you can contact Steve Lowe.  He is one of the Protestant chaplains, and has been the point of contact for the assemblies in Fullerton, Placentia, and Riverside.  I have been very active in warning people on campus and in other places in Fullerton and Placentia.  I would be happy to warn Steve Lowe also.  But I would be even happier if someone out there took it upon himself to issue this warning.  I'd rather not be the only one in Orange County sounding an alarm about the Geftakys groups.

Clarence Thompson
aka mithrandir

[M2]

Specifically, as the end of the year approaches, many of these assemblies will begin planning Christmas project outreaches to juvenile institutions.  While it is commendable to visit those in prison, the assemblies are not fit for this work.  Sure, they will preach the Gospel, but they will also try to recruit young men and women who are about to be released.  The last thing one of these kids needs is to get out of jail, only to join a Geftakys assembly.

So I am asking that we send out warnings to the youth chaplains at the juvenile detention facilities in our localities, in those places where a Geftakys assembly continues to exist.  If you live in Fullerton, Placentia or Riverside, and you were formerly involved in the Orange County Juvenile Hall Christmas projects, you can contact Steve Lowe.  He is one of the Protestant chaplains, and has been the point of contact for the assemblies in Fullerton, Placentia, and Riverside.  I have been very active in warning people on campus and in other places in Fullerton and Placentia.  I would be happy to warn Steve Lowe also.  But I would be even happier if someone out there took it upon himself to issue this warning.  I'd rather not be the only one in Orange County sounding an alarm about the Geftakys groups.

Clarence,

Any volunteers yet? I'll do it if no one else has volunteered. All I need to do is send Steve Lowe a brief letter and refer him to www.geftakysassembly.com. He can then decide for himself wheter or not he want the assemblies involved in Christmas OR at the juvenile detention facilities.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[outdeep]

Steve Lowe is very familiar with the Assembly.  He has worked with the group since the earely 1980's, if not before.  He has had personal run ins with Beth Alex (appointed leader by of the Juvenile Ministry) back then.

I remember a Juvenile meeting around 1984 when Steve met with us and explained that while Beth was in charge of our juvenile ministry outside of prison walls, he was in charge when it involved his kids inside the prison.  He speech was grumbled about afterwards, of course, but he was right.

So all that to say, whatever you may tell Steve about the Assembly is not going to come as any surprise and it isn't like he hasn't been monitoring the situation for years.

On a practical note.  The Saints have gone into Juvenile Hall for years sharing the gospel and they have done that very well from my experience.  The few (and I mean really few) who actually came out to the Assembly afterwards were often actually helped by the likes of Mark Wheel, Gilbert DeLeon, John Kehoe, Tom Summerford and Richard Santallian.(sp?).

I guess I don't see a big need to spend lots of energy sounding the alarm.  I don't see the propensity or opportunity for mass brainwashing here.  

I see a group of Christians who may have unorthodox views on the church and sanctification who will go in and preach a gospel you and I would probably agree with.  If they are successful in finding someone to disciple, they will probably invite them to meetings (which may actually be a better alternative than being invited back to a gang).  However, they will also probably treat him or her with a certain measure of genuine care and tough love as well.


I guess this raises the larger question:  In a country with relative freedom of religion, there are lots of goofball groups running around - some that make the Assembly look like a picnic in comparson.  Do we spend all of our times as watchdogs trying to keep people from attending JW meetings?  Or snakehandler meetings?  Or Local Church?  Or Mormons?  

Or do we get on with the Lord and try and model something better?  Do we try and show grace and minister to people in the Assembly in hopes that we win the right to speak to them?

I don't really have an interest in trying to shut down their Christmas projects.  I would rather attempt to have the opportunity to encourage Assembly folks to send out Christmas cards.  I think their parents would appreciate it after all these years of neglect.

Let God bring judgement where judgement is due.  On your part, show grace and humility or the fight will never end.

[jackhutchinson]

Dave,

I would have to respectfully disagree with you.  The reason we should warn others about the Assembly and not other groups is that the Assembly is part of our sorry past.  It's our turf.  The best contribution we can make is to warn people, "Don't do what we did!".  Warning people is part of getting on with life, as well as comforting others who have left abusive groups.  There are plenty of former members of goofball groups that can warn others about their particular group.  

Also, warning others about the assembly does not constitute judgment.  We are simply doing what others before us should have done, but didn't.

As far as the juvenile hall outreach is concerned, I would much rather see the kids going to a healthy church.  The last thing they need is to get saved only to end up in the Assembly looney bin, and then turn against God in anger when they wake up and smell the coffee grounds.

Just my take....

Jack