Existing Assemblies

[BeckyW]

I'm thinking along the same lines, Jack.  Anybody coming to an assembly meeting should have access to enough information to enable them to make a fully informed decision about just what they're visiting.  This includes knowing the history of it.  
Zealous repentance of supporting this ministry for us includes a desire to spare others the pain, if possible.

BW

[outdeep]

I understand what you folks are saying.  In fact, I felt that way 13 years ago when I left.   Some of it was rooted in a genuine desire to get information out into the hands that needed it.  Much of it sprung from feeling cheated and wanting to "right the wrong" of the Assembly.  Very legitimate feelings.  

However, my point is this.  Other than the campus ministry (and mainly Tim and Jim), the Assembly has an abismal success rate when it comes to outreach.  Concerts in the park, juvenile outreaches, door-to-door convinces virtually no one to come out - maybe one or two in a five year streatch and the chances of them staying around for very long is pretty small.

So you can put out this massive information campaign to discredit every outreach in hopes of sparing this one or two.   But in doing so, you further alienate those who are still in the Assembly.  They will circle the wagons and build a fortress mentality against you since that is what they have been conditioned to do for thirty years (and you give them good reason to do so).  You thus sabotage any opportunity to help those in the Assembly find their way out with your help.  Do you think they will come to you now if they begin to question their involvement?  

As a result, you are really not practically helping anyone.  Is it worth it?

I don't have a problem if you happen to run into someone who is going to a meeting and you say, "hey, did you look at www.geftakysassembly.com?  You might want to look at the history of this group before you consider joining."  But to go on this all out search and destroy mission to discredit them at every turn seems like a wasteful use of energy.  An exercise in burning bridges and closing doors.  An act that will only strenthen their resolve that they must stand together against the dark forces of the enemy.  

When we try to reach Muslems, we become a part of their life and spend years trying to win their confidence.  When Young Life tries to reach High School students, they ignore the outward sin and rebellion and try to build a relationship until they have the right to be heard.  If those in the Assembly are "so deceived", then why don't we do the same with them?

And what is the worst that could happen if that one person in five years comes into fellowship?  You assume if he didn't he would join a "healthy church"?  How are you so sure that he wouldn't have joined something worse?

I think you will be more effective in helping if you wait several years until the hurt heals.  And you do this by getting involved with a ministry or small group in a healthy church, building new relationships, being honest and open, developing friendships.  Then your life will demonstrate a true and wholesome alternative.

[Arthur]

I agree with Dave in his latest post.  You guys from SLO remember the year we put a door hanger on every door in the city?  It was something like 15,000, and all of zero people showed up to the gospel campaign (not including saints or transients who live in the park).  I know this lack of fruit was not indigenous to our assembly alone. (What was that verse so often quoted? -- "Unless the Lord build the house, the laborers labor in vain."  So true.   )

The campus, however, produced at least one or two per year that stuck around for at least six months or more.
I don't know what good a blanket campaign against the assembly would do.  If someone was going to warn someone, I think the ones who would listen would be people who are just coming out and getting interested, especially those from campus.  It's great that there is now a website to show these people.

At the time that I joined there was some warning, but it seemed very obtuse. There was the Churches that Abuse book, but the stories in there seemed too vague and too far fetched to be believable.  There was the rick ross site, but there was only one or two accounts on there and one was this story about George hiding gold bars under his floor boards in his house.  Again, it was easily dismissable.  Also, whatever warning there was, there was no warning about it being a cult or about false doctorine being taught--it was just an "abusive church", or a "fringe group".

But now, there is testimony after testimony with specific examples up on the site and people that can be emailed to verify the accounts and talk to about their experiences.

Of course, if a person so warned goes back to the leadership to ask them about it, they will be lied to--hopefully they will make the right decision.

Funny, there were people that I went out to on campus who got excited about the things that were shared from the Bible, but the moment they came to one of our community meetings, I never saw them again.  I guess they got the hint without even needing a website.    Maybe someone warned them.

Arthur

[jackhutchinson]

Dave,

Your point about few visitors is right on.  The Lord said to the Pharisees that though they went to the ends of the earth to make just one disciple, that disciple turned out to be twice the son of hell that the Pharisees were.  That was us.

I'll be willing to bet, though, that the efforts of those who are warning are not nearly of the same magnitude that we made while in the Assembly.  And, we now know that we really are pointing people in the right direction.

I should clarify that I do not assume that people will be in a healthy church if the Assembly is not allowed in juvenile hall outreaches.  You made a good point.

I think that the desire to warn is a healthy one, even if it doesn't last.  I doubt my desire to warn people will remain as strong as it is now.  Maybe it's just part of the process of healing.  So I'll keep warning people, though I will consider what you've said.

As far as circling the wagons is concerned, you're right.  They are building up a wall of denial that is no doubt even higher than we had (this is what makes these groups even more dangerous than they were before January).  However, the reason they are doing it is because they know the truth is now readily available as never before, but they CHOOSE to ignore it.  There is no excuse for being ignorant of the truth (for those who were in the Assemblies before January).  We are not to blame for their stubbornness.

At this point in my life I have no desire to hang out with those on the inside to get them to trust me.  I also don't want to be lured back into the twisted thinking of the Assembly mindset.  Maybe in a few years I would be able to take it, but not now.

Freedom is dangerous, for it gives us the ability to really mess up our lives.  Fortunately, it also gives us the ability to warn others about the concequences of the choices they are making.

Jack

[editor]

However, my point is this.  Other than the campus ministry (and mainly Tim and Jim), the Assembly has an abismal success rate when it comes to outreach.  Concerts in the park, juvenile outreaches, door-to-door convinces virtually no one to come out - maybe one or two in a five year streatch and the chances of them staying around for very long is pretty small.

So you can put out this massive information campaign to discredit every outreach in hopes of sparing this one or two.   But in doing so, you further alienate those who are still in the Assembly.  

I think there is wisdom in what Dave is saying here.  As far as I know, there is only one person who ever "came into fellowship," from the juvenile hall.  There can't be more than 5 total, over the years, who joined and stayed.

I don't recall anyone ever joining as a result of a concert either.   Tent meetings were a tremendous exercise in make-believe, but it was good to see your friends from other Assemblies who came out to swell the ranks.  Midnight doorkeeping was also fun, because the testimony was almost always "attacked" by local pranksters.  

It seems to me that the place to really make a difference is on the college campus.  That is the place that fresh converts were ensnared.  If each campus is warned, specifically the other Christian groups on campus,  much more would be acomplished than trying to shut down juvenile hall.   At least it seems that way to me.

Keep in mind that a handful of middle-aged saints must now carry the burden that 100 young servants used to do.  I seriously doubt if outreach is real popular right now in Fullerton.  Let 'em burn out, and perhaps some of us will be around to talk to them in a few months.

Who knows what neat things George will do this year?   He had a glorious seminar over labor day in Mike Almanzor's living room.  Perhaps he can travel to Sacramento for the fall journey?  

Think back five years and pretend someone told you what is going on today.  Could you have even comprehended it?  All we are seeing now is a withered stump oozing sap.  You still don't want to sit on it, because it will ruin your pants, but the roots aren't going to clog the sewer anymore.....

Brent

[Eulaha L. Long]

During my brief stay in Fullerton, I would go toi the park outreaches just to hang out with the few friends I had.  There were so many "saints" there that I did not know, so I wouldn't have known who was a visitor or not...and I didn't care either!

[vernecarty]

Has anyone ever considered that the people who willingly remian under the evil system erected by George Geftakys may be displaying evidence of God's judgment on them? We at least have the excuse that we were ignorant. One has to conclude in view of what has been revealed that those who remain there  do so by choice. It seems to me that harboring notions that we are somehow going to be able to deliver them by our care and compassion is an entirely misplaced expectation. I believe the Scriptural prescription for these people is that they are to be left alone.
Verne

[Arthur]

Has anyone ever considered that the people who willingly remian under the evil system erected by George Geftakys may be displaying evidence of God's judgment on them? We at least have the excuse that we were ignorant. One has to conclude in view of what has been revealed that those who remain there  do so by choice. It seems to me that harboring notions that we are somehow going to be able to deliver them by our care and compassion is an entirely misplaced expectation. I believe the Scriptural prescription for these people is that they are to be left alone.
Verne

I agree, but if there are any newcomers they wouldn't know the past history, and a warning may save them from being ensnared.  Of course, it would probably be painfully obvious to almost any potential visitor that something's a bit different about these people, especially now.


Kinda reminds me of the snares to avoid in Proverbs 2 and 7.  
Funny (and sad) thing is, I thought that was what I was doing when I threw my lot in with the saints in the first place.  Now I was reading my Bible ("incline thine ear unto wisdom") instead of watching TV ("to deliver thee from the way of the evil man").  Guess I was wrong.  Better to watch the boob toob than be like a moonie.  
(Just kidding.  I think the idea is good.  It is good to hear His voice and follow him--but just well away from the wolves and enchanted sheep).  

[outdeep]

I guess my living across the country and haven't been in an Assembly meeting for 13 years, I am not prepared to make such a pronouncement.

Those who I have chatted with who are attempting to meet in Fullerton were:
1.  No longer exclusive - didn't have a big problem whether people stayed in the Assembly and left.
2.  Were open to listening to other speakers.
3.  Called me seeking reconciliation for past offensives.
4.  No longer viewed me as walking in darkness.

Excluding those Assemblies who are in denial about George's sins I didn't receive reason to doubt their motives.

The general concensus I came to in discussion is trying to meet in Fullerton is unwise (it really wan't going anywhere as one person told me).  But is John Kehoe and Gary Halverson and Gary Wilson evil because they are gathering for a Bible Study in Fullerton (if they even still are)?  I don't think so.  Is Mark Miller evil because he is trying to make good on a committment to stick around as a shepherd?  I doubt it.  (In fact, I think he would rather join his wife at E.V. Free, but feels he has to make good on his word).

Maybe I have old or incorrect information.  But I haven't been converted to the "those who still meet are evil" theory.  I think many are sincerly attempting to see God do a good work.  Whether they are successful or not is another matter.

[M2]

Hi Dave,

I do not doubt the sincerity of existing assemblyites to repent and make things right and to know and do the Lord's will. I suppose if Mark Miller joined his wife at EVFree then he might be accused of abandonning the flock. I am of the opinion that those who continue to meet have a difficult time breaking free from the old habits and harmful teaching and need a fresh Christian environment to 'clear' their heads (I include myself in this). Before GGs excomm... they/we were equally as sincere to serve the Lord, but were sincerely deceived.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[editor]

I guess my living across the country and haven't been in an Assembly meeting for 13 years, I am not prepared to make such a pronouncement.

Those who I have chatted with who are attempting to meet in Fullerton were:
1.  No longer exclusive - didn't have a big problem whether people stayed in the Assembly and left.
2.  Were open to listening to other speakers.
3.  Called me seeking reconciliation for past offensives.
4.  No longer viewed me as walking in darkness.

Excluding those Assemblies who are in denial about George's sins I didn't receive reason to doubt their motives.

The general concensus I came to in discussion is trying to meet in Fullerton is unwise (it really wan't going anywhere as one person told me).  But is John Kehoe and Gary Halverson and Gary Wilson evil because they are gathering for a Bible Study in Fullerton (if they even still are)?  I don't think so.  Is Mark Miller evil because he is trying to make good on a committment to stick around as a shepherd?  I doubt it.  (In fact, I think he would rather join his wife at E.V. Free, but feels he has to make good on his word).

Maybe I have old or incorrect information.  But I haven't been converted to the "those who still meet are evil" theory.  I think many are sincerly attempting to see God do a good work.  Whether they are successful or not is another matter.

Dave has it right folks.  The bold emphasis in his quote is mine.

There is a huge difference between Fullerton and Riverside, Sacramento, San Francisco.

Brent

Oh, one other thing.  Those that continue to meet, and insist that they never followed George, or that George didn't have much influence, etc.  may not be evil, but they are certainly deceived.  It is indeed unwise to continue in such a state, because it leads to evil.

Deception and denial are not good foundations to build/re-build upon.

Brent

[Oscar]

Hi all,

In thinking about this, it helps to keep in mind that most people's basic reason for being in a cult is emotional, not intellectual.  The doctrines of the group are accepted as supports for what people already want to believe.

That is why people find/found it so easy to deflect criticism from outside and to ignore "red flag moments" when they happened.  Researchers in the field of Language Acquisition have learned that children have what they call an "affective filter" which means that they just stop paying attention to incoming information that raises their anxiety level beyond a certain point.

I think that cult memebers do just about the same thing.

Another factor is that cults provide a worldview that helps people to make sense of a very confusing and sometimes threatening world.  "We are a community of light and life in the midst of a community of death and darkness".  This is actually a summary of an entire worldview that the GG cult and other cults promote.  

To leave the cult, people have to abandon not just the organization and its leaders, they have to actually change their inner map of reality.   This is NOT easy to do.  

Those who left on their own over the years understand this, believe me.

The exposure of gross immorality on the part of members of the Royal Family of the assembly sort of "blew" people out of their inner "world".  They were shocked into  facing things that they had been able to deflect before. (In saying this, I realize that most rank and file folks only knew a few of the facts, or didn't know about it at all.)

Some folks have such a deep seated need/desire to maintain their worldview that they have treated the information about GG and family the way the body treats TB virus.  It incapsulates it in order to keep the infection from spreading.  GG was bad, but the teachings are still true.

Mentally, that is what many have done.

Finally, some folks just don't want to lose the friendships  established over 20-30 years.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

[editor]

Another factor is that cults provide a worldview that helps people to make sense of a very confusing and sometimes threatening world.  "We are a community of light and life in the midst of a community of death and darkness".  This is actually a summary of an entire worldview that the GG cult and other cults promote.  

Isn't that the truth!  It was comforting to know exactly who I was, and how I was doing, and exactly what I should do or think at any given given time.

That kind of piece of mind is a rare gift.  Too bad it wasn't real.   I have long since abandoned my search for such a thing, and have decided that I must walk by faith, not by sight.   Although following a man, listening to a man,  and being loyal to a man is easier to do, it just isn't going to work and will result in disaster by and by.

Brent

[mithrandir]

Dave,

I respect your views.  There is a certain compelling wisdom displayed in what you have posted.  But there are some questions for which I would need an answer before I said that I wholly agree with you.

First, someone might say, "If someone joins a Geftakys group, it means they are the type who was bound to join something abusive anyway...you can't prevent them.  Just leave them alone."  If so, what does that say about us?  We all joined Geftakys groups, even though most of us are out now.

Second, is it not true that any warning given by anyone about this group will probably alienate those inside the group?  Is this not what happened to Brent when he began his website?  Is this not what happened to others who blew the whistle on the Geftakysites even before Brent?  Does the potential for alienation absolve us of the responsibility to sound a warning?  If the answer is yes, Brent should not have begun his website.  Where would we all be if he hadn't?  Consider this also - the warnings being sounded now are not for the purpose of changing the minds of anyone still in a Geftakys assembly.  Rather, they are for the purpose of warning people who might be recruited into a Geftakys assembly.  As far as those who are still on the inside, they have already received as much warning as anyone who's breathing and has a pulse would need to leave a Geftakys group.

Third, is it not true that in the Geftakys assemblies we not only learned wrong doctrine, but we learned an entirely unhealthy way of relating to each other and to the outside world?  The reason why many of these groups are trying to continue is because they can't give up that unhealthy way of relating.  They call it "maintaining the vision" or something similar.

Two last thoughts.  First, you mentioned people like John Kehoe, Gary Halverson, Tom Summerford, Rick Santillan and Gary Wilson.  As far as I know (and I still have access to some reliable sources) these men and their wives have all left the assemblies in Fullerton and Placentia.  So has Danny Davisson.  Those who are left in Fullerton are continuing on much as the body of a chicken will continue to run around for several seconds after the head has been cut off.  But there are groups such as Placentia which are still aggressively trying to recruit people.  Young women are still moving into Jack Hanson's house, for instance.

Lastly, I believe in sounding warnings.  But sounding a warning is not revenge, even though it may feel good.  It is a means of confining a toxic group so that the group cannot cause further damage.  I believe warnings should be given tastefully and credibly.  Therefore I am not hanging around assembly meetings or outreaches with a picket sign and a bullhorn.  I am probably not the kind of guy to take out an ad in the newspaper.  But I do believe in talking to people in the community who have served as prominent points of contact for the assemblies when they have done outreaches.  There will be a point in all this where it is no longer necessary or appropriate to sound a warning.  If anyone can convince me that that point has already been reached, bravo!  I'd be more than happy to occupy myself with something else.  And I'd be the first to admit that maybe I'm missing something that is perfectly obvious to everyone else.  I am not writing this as an argument, but as a request for further enlightenment.  After all, "...I'm just a bus driver...what do I know?"

mithrandir

[golden]

Yes..I would recommend this when visiting any new assembly / Bible Church/ Gathering or wherever you visit....make sure you have a full comprehension of all the details of every aspect of how that organization is run...top down.  This would make sure that no one in that church has ever failed.  Make sure to do an audit on their spending, make sure that they are worthy for you to give to and make sure that you have input into every aspect of the way they do things. This would be the first thing you do before making a "fully informed decision"  to even visit them.

Does the Lord reign in His House or not?