Existing Assemblies

[editor]

Yes..I would recommend this when visiting any new assembly / Bible Church/ Gathering or wherever you visit....make sure you have a full comprehension of all the details of every aspect of how that organization is run...top down.  This would make sure that no one in that church has ever failed.  Make sure to do an audit on their spending, make sure that they are worthy for you to give to and make sure that you have input into every aspect of the way they do things. This would be the first thing you do before making a "fully informed decision"  to even visit them.

Does the Lord reign in His House or not?  

Yes, the Lord reigns in His House.  However, He didn't reign in George's house.

Brent

[brian]

Is Mark Miller evil because he is trying to make good on a committment to stick around as a shepherd?  I doubt it.  (In fact, I think he would rather join his wife at E.V. Free, but feels he has to make good on his word).

this raises an interesting dynamic i was discussing with a friend the other day. it would appear that several leaders are sticking around out of a sense of duty to those 'sheep' that still want to meet. meanwhile, the 'sheep' keep coming to the meeting out of a sense of loyalty to the leaders who have not given up yet. i think this is a significant part of the dynamic that keeps these groups going, and it dosen't seem very healthy to me. in this dynamic, the leaders are abdicating the decision to keep meeting to their followers, and the followers are abdicating the SAME decision to their leaders. so noone makes the decision to stop, and the meetings shuffle on, but without much vitality. unless george is whipping them into a frenzy every sunday.

There were many of God's people who were and still are honoring the Lord while in the assembly.

the dynamic i outline above is one example of a way sincere and noble motives can lead a person far astray. sincerity can lead to dishonor when it is misguided. i can give you dozens of first-person accounts of situations in which i acted out of sincere faith and yet really hurt people, driving them away from Christ. my opportunities for behaving in this misguidedly offensive way were seriously limited by the fact that i was never a LB. many other sincere people did not (and do not) have this limitation.

as marcia has so recently experienced, the old habits of shunning are hard to break, especially when the persecution mentality is so deeply engrained and inflamed by events this year. how has the way she and others who have recently left been treated honoring to the Lord, even if those still in the assembly are sincere?

but i do agree that we should not call those still meeting evil, satanic, or any other ridiculous, alienating names. they are just people, like you and i, doing their best to live life the best they can (most of them, anyway). i want only the best for them, and i worry about them with a heavy heart. i wish them only happiness and fulfillment in whatever they chose to do with their lives, but i look at the evidence, and i cringe, and i worry that the gatherings that keep meeting will not improve, but rather deteriorate... and if that happens... those poor people...  

brian

[outdeep]

Golden:  Now, you're being silly.  In most Christian churches, an audit is not necessary as they are happy to provide a financial statement at any time upon request.  In the Assembly we were taught that the more "scriptural" way to do it was to give the money to men without account.  When people found out that the money was not being used in a forthright way, they were hurt and they don't want to be stung by the same practices.

Clarence:  You make some great points.  I'll try and chat more later when I have the time.  I think Golden here just reaffirmed to me that some warnings are indeed in order.

[editor]

Golden:  Now, you're being silly.  In most Christian churches, an audit is not necessary as they are happy to provide a financial statement at any time upon request.  In the Assembly we were taught that the more "scriptural" way to do it was to give the money to men without account.  When people found out that the money was not being used in a forthright way, they were hurt and they don't want to be stung by the same practices.

Clarence:  You make some great points.  I'll try and chat more later when I have the time.  I think Golden here just reaffirmed to me that some warnings are indeed in order.

I just want to say that I am being instructed in a meaningful way from Dave, Clarence and Brian.  Not only have you guys challenged my thinking, but you have caused me to change my stance on certain things.

Also, golden was also highly instructive.  As long as there are geftakysservants like that around,  warnings are in order.  

Golden,  you may have noticed that many of us use our names, and tell people who we are, even where we live and our emails, etc.  Do you have the courage to tell us who you are?

Are you able to string together intelligent thoughts, or are you only able to produce silly barbs at this time?

Brent Tr0ckman

[editor]

I am spinning this off of golden's tongue-in-cheek remark below.

Yes..I would recommend this when visiting any new assembly / Bible Church/ Gathering or wherever you visit....make sure you have a full comprehension of all the details of every aspect of how that organization is run...top down.  This would make sure that no one in that church has ever failed.  Make sure to do an audit on their spending, make sure that they are worthy for you to give to and make sure that you have input into every aspect of the way they do things. This would be the first thing you do before making a "fully informed decision"  to even visit them.

Does the Lord reign in His House or not?  

Let's say you entered a building that you were told had Christian meetings on Sunday afternoons.  The following things are true:

1.) The group claims that they don't have a name
2.) They claim to not have pastors, or paid clergy
3.) They have a bunch of books written by one person for sale in the back.
4.) They dress funny, and have large families, with no children's church, nursery or youth program.
5.) They don't have music
6.) Everyone in the place makes a huge fuss over you, pumping your hand and saying,  "Nice to meet you!  Where are you in fellowship?  Did The Lord speak to you?"
7.) Much was made of a person called "Brother Russ."
8.) Brother Russ, obviously some sort of central figure in the group, is referred to as , "The Lord's Worker."
9.) Upon presenting a check for the collection box, you are told,  "We only accept cash."  Upon asking the obvious question about where the money goes, you are told,  "It goes for the work of The Lord."
10.) The women all wear long hair, long dresses, no make-up, and small pieces of cloth on the tops of their heads.

Would you conclude that God reigns in His House and give your cash to these people?  Would you feel comfortable about joining this group, or would you want to know more about them, especially about "Brother Russ?"

If I understand golden properly, he advocates the position that checking these things out is a sign of unbelief regarding God's ability to reign.

Any thoughts?

Brent

[M2]

...
Would you conclude that God reigns in His House and give your cash to these people?  Would you feel comfortable about joining this group, or would you want to know more about them, especially about "Brother Russ?"

If I understand golden properly, he advocates the position that checking these things out is a sign of unbelief regarding God's ability to reign.

Any thoughts?

21.5 years ago: yes, I did join wholeheartedly.

Now that I am older and wiser : Definitely NO! I would not want to join. I might want to know more about the group to warn others about it.


Clarence,

I see your point about warning. There's a saying about striking the iron while it is hot (is that the correct saying??). Next year things may have 'cooled' down; this year is the opportunity. You are correct about unhealthy doctrine and relating to one another in the assembly.

A family very recently left an assembly in another locality. We have been emailing each other. They feel very liberated and even the kids are joyfully singing and participating. The kids usually had a difficult time being joyful in the assembly meetings. This family were 'die hard' assemblyites. They practically had to driven out of fellowship, but now they have discovered liberty and freedom to serve the Lord. They are happy.

Another testimony from a different individual extracted from a personal email to me written yesterday:
 I would hate to see pride get the better of some of those[assembly] people, but seriously, sometimes people need to be pried away from something they're attached to, especially when it's gone bad.
Yes, you should!!! You should feel liberated. I do too, but likely not as much as you. It's not like I don't miss some things, but I feel more in control and stronger as a Christian to stand on my own.
The transition is becoming easier. The kids are fitting in. At least here, the kids get some instruction whereas in the assembly, they had to sit still and quiet for more than 3 hours with little to do. That was a little unfair to them. The kids really like it at ?? on Sundays.
--end-quote

I am thankful that I am no longer "IN".

Lord bless,
Marcia

[vernecarty]

I guess my living across the country and haven't been in an Assembly meeting for 13 years, I am not prepared to make such a pronouncement.


The general concensus I came to in discussion is trying to meet in Fullerton is unwise (it really wan't going anywhere as one person told me).  But is John Kehoe and Gary Halverson and Gary Wilson evil because they are gathering for a Bible Study in Fullerton (if they even still are)?  I don't think so.  Is Mark Miller evil because he is trying to make good on a committment to stick around as a shepherd?  I doubt it.  (In fact, I think he would rather join his wife at E.V. Free, but feels he has to make good on his word).

Maybe I have old or incorrect information.  But I haven't been converted to the "those who still meet are evil" theory.  I think many are sincerly attempting to see God do a good work.  Whether they are successful or not is another matter.

Dave the problem I have with your position is that the great weakness of those around George Geftakys was the way he totally isolated them from the influence and example of other Godly Christians and leaders. He constantly denigrated men orders of magnitude his superior. This was an absolute centerpiece of his strategy for maintaining control. Those so-called leaders who have failed to recognize this simple and obvious fact are showing how little they have learned about what has happened. Where does Mark Miller or any other member of George's inner circle get the notion that they are in any way qualified to shepherd anybody? This is the height of arrogance and self-delusion.  True repentance absolutely required that the care and protection of any of the flock these men felt responsible for be committed to faithful men!

These men need to humble themsleves and get under the tutelage and authortiy of true men of God. Are we all going soft in the head?
By every Scriptural measure, these men are disqualified!
Verne

[outdeep]

I absolutely agree with you Verne.  I thought from the beginning that trying to keep things going was and is unwise.  But evil?

[vernecarty]

I absolutely agree with you Verne.  I thought from the beginning that trying to keep things going was and is unwise.  But evil?

I want to be careful here because I do have a tendency to get a little extreme in my speech.
I have no doubt in my mind that many of us George Geftakys surborned had no intention of involving oursleves in some of the clearly distasteful, and yes, evil things that ocurred under George's watch. Whether we were agents or instruments, sad and tragic things took place nevertheless. My hope is God's assessment of my own failure is that I would be worthly of few stripes as one that did not know his Master's will.
The leaders in that system though have another huge problem alltogehter. I have contended elsewhere that it is not possible that the Spirit of God failed to correct and warn these men about the nature of the man Geroge Geftakys and the frightful goings-on in many of the assemblies. I have beeen absolutely ruthless in my indictment of them because they are to be blamed.
what am I to make of someone formerly in leadership under Goerge Geftakys over many decades, overseeing the spiritual overthrow of countless lives and families and now presuming to now in any way be fit to handle the things of the sanctuary? Perhaps evil is not the appropriate word to use here, but I do feel that these men are not displaying the kind of spiritual intelligence and committment to His honor, that one would expect of men who truly love Jesus Christ.

Verne

[mithrandir]

Existing Assemblies  I have some good news for you all.  The assembly in Fullerton is down to 60 people on Sundays and around 20 to 30 during the midweek meetings, according to one of my sources.  Only a matter of time...

Two other slightly unrelated things  Regarding racism in the assemblies, it is important to remember that according to Colossians 3, all of us who have received Christ have a new identity.  The old identities (Jew, Greek, barbarian, Scythian, etc) are dissolved.  Those old identities would never have gotten us to Heaven anyway, since they were merely different flavors of fallen humanity.  Therefore, it is not my intention to issue a blanket criticism of any class of people.  The thing that's obvious is that the Geftakys empire appeared to be righteous, yet actually embraced almost every conceivable evil.  So it's not surprising that among the hurts they dealt out, racism was one.  It is helpful and gratifying to see how willing we are to understand the particular ways each one of us has been affected by the Assemblies.  I was a victim of racism.  But I did not suffer spousal abuse as the wife of David G (for two reasons, one because I'm not a woman  , and two, because I'd have given him a stunning left to the jaw if he'd tried anything   )).  Yet I need to exercise myself in understanding and trying to help each person deal with his or her own particular difficulty in recovering from Geftakysism.  On the same subject, I was already thinking of getting a copy of the book by Chris Rice that Becky Wieser recommended.  But I want to read the book because Chris Rice is also a Christian musician and a good example as a Christian artist, and I want to see how he integrates his art with the rest of his ministry.

The last thing I want to say is that I think we all need a little levity right now.  So I want to ask you all something.  Look for my question under "Another clever riddle."

mithrandir

[M2]

One characteristic of Geftakysism is 'preserve the testimony at all costs'. This is still being practiced by some of those so called repentant LBs. They counsel individuals to remain in a spiritually abusive environment because the 'assembly' is more important than the fact that the sheep is miserable. They counsel secrecy of assembly decisions because any kind of exposure could give only half of the picture and they would not look good then. Who cares if the sheep is told to bear a burden he/she should never have had to bear? These are the guys who are supposed to be the leaders and have rhinocerous skins. These are the guys who have repented from Geftakysism. These are the guys that Matt P says really love the Lord Jesus. This is happening in existing assemblies to date.
Don't confuse 'desire to repent' with 'true repentance'!

Marcia Marinier

[outdeep]

Marcia,

Do you have an example of someone who had been counselled to stay in the Assembly (and not attend another church) even though they are miserable?

A half a year ago, the trend was for those in leadership (and I'm thinking Fullerton) to say "stay or leave, it's up to you."

What specifically is happening now and where?

Isolated in the SouthEast,

-Dave

[M2]

Marcia,

Do you have an example of someone who had been counselled to stay in the Assembly (and not attend another church) even though they are miserable?

A half a year ago, the trend was for those in leadership (and I'm thinking Fullerton) to say "stay or leave, it's up to you."

What specifically is happening now and where?

Isolated in the SouthEast,

-Dave

Dave,

Please understand that I cannot give any more details as I still love these brethren and am loathe to give names etc.

The couselee has left anyway. The counsellor was sad that the counselee did. This happened a little over a month ago.

Marcia

[outdeep]

I think one of the most difficult thing that Assembly leaders have to face is the prospect of being another "Joe" in the pew.  In the Assembly, they had significance and respect.  I don't mean this in a bad way.  When we were in the Assembly, we all believe that we were a part of something that was bigger than ourselves and it gave our lives significance.

Now, if they begin to attend the local community megachurch, they know nobody and are nobody.  It will take years to find their way around and rebuild.

Perhaps their motivation to hold things together is not a cruel desire to hold the sheep in bondage.  But, perhaps, they are driven by a fear of the alternative.  Is it easier to believe that they are still a part of this great movement that has defined their lives for the past 20 or 30 years than facing the pain of starting all over?

[editor]

I think one of the most difficult thing that Assembly leaders have to face is the prospect of being another "Joe" in the pew.  In the Assembly, they had significance and respect.  I don't mean this in a bad way.  When we were in the Assembly, we all believe that we were a part of something that was bigger than ourselves and it gave our lives significance.

Now, if they begin to attend the local community megachurch, they know nobody and are nobody.  It will take years to find their way around and rebuild.

Perhaps their motivation to hold things together is not a cruel desire to hold the sheep in bondage.  But, perhaps, they are driven by a fear of the alternative.  Is it easier to believe that they are still a part of this great movement that has defined their lives for the past 20 or 30 years than facing the pain of starting all over?

Hi Dave

Yes, you've got it right.  However, in order to be a "shepherd" of "God's dear people," there must some people to shepherd.  Therefore, a person with this desire has got to have some sheep in the pen.  That is what is going on in the groups that are still meeting, especially San Francisco,  Sacramento,  Riverside,  Placentia,  West LA, Pasadena,  Anandale, etc.

Fullerton is a little different.  They are are on Assembly Hospice, where they are just caring for the terminally ill patient.

Brent