Existing Assemblies

[d3z]

BTW, for anyone who's curious, mithrandir is Clarence Thompson, former Fullerton doorkeeper.

So, if you're going to use the name Mithrandir, shouldn't you be posting in Elvish?

[vernecarty]

I still don't have an answer to my questions  

Andrea

E-mail Steve Irons and ask for confirmation of this. If Samuel is of the opinon that the website should be terminated, he is most seriously mistaken on that point.
Verne

[editor]

Forgive me for being dense.  Why is Samuel saying that the website was/is evil then?  Did he, or did he not ask Steve Irons to take the assembly website down?
Andrea

Hi Andrea

I just noticed your post.  It's great to read your digital sequences again!

I hadn't heard that Samuel is saying this,  so this needs to be verified.  Don't put it past people (geftakysservants) to put words in the man's mouth, or to use his name to add weight to their opinions.

First order of business, BEFORE casting judgement on the man:  Did he say this, something like this, or is it totally fabricated?

Steve, Margaret?

Brent

[d3z]

Steve Iron's meeting with Samuel is explained on the GA website: http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/TeachingPractice/SamuelInFullerton.htm

Dave

[Oscar]

Hi folks,

I just read Steve Iron's article about his meeting with Samuel O.  Let me say that I agree wholeheartedly with Steve's evaluation of Samuel's "ministry".

What he has written also demonstrates that the basic veiw of things, (and therefore practices), has not changed much among the folks who are still there.

Example: In 1989 I told Gilbert DeLeon that the assembly's, (ie GG's), financial policies were "a shame to the name of the Lord Jesus Christ".  Gilbert told Steve that he only reads his Bible.  Well, I hope he gets to the parts about open, honest financial dealings soon.

In Margaret's notes about Samuel's "message" it is very easy to discern his basic assumption: The assembly system,(this vision),  is the true expression of "what God wants" and if anyone criticizes it, they are doing the Devil's work.

I have heard this line of reasoning many times.  It was constantly preached at me whenever I dared to suggest the slightest change in what was taught or the way things were done.  It is a cultic control technique, designed to control behavior through FEAR, not through persuasion.

Samual Ochengela should be ashamed of himself for using it!!!   I guess his Bible does not contain Luke 12:32. "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom."

I know that some participants on this BB have personal friendships with Samuel and think highly of him.  In my opinion, Samuel's actions are probably well intended, but are the result of years of indoctrination by GG and other Plymouth Brethren teachers.

What I am talking about is the way he uses the Bible.  The verses frequently, (usually?), have nothing to do with what is being taught.  They are thrown in based on a weird understanding of "The Analogy of Faith" which boils down to "the Bible means whatever you feel inspired to say it means".  

If you say, "but if that is true then you can teach anything and claim Biblical support", you are correct.  Much of Plymouth Bretheren teaching is based on vague analogies.

So I say, RIGHT ON STEVE!  Stand firm.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

[retread]

Steve Iron's meeting with Samuel is explained on the GA website: http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/TeachingPractice/SamuelInFullerton.htm

Dave

From Steve's article on the geftakysassembly.com web site:

...
When I told him I wasn't going to accept his application of that passage to this situation, he told me that Muslims attack Christians, burn down their churches, and publicly scandalize them based on statements from newspaper articles and web sites like mine. I told him I can't imagine that our web site is responsible for all these atrocities perpetrated against Christians in Africa. He further explained to me that because of the web site, people in his home town have identified him with George. He has had to remove the words "Torch and Testimony" painted on his van to free himself from the scandal portrayed on the web site.  He also laid it on me that weak Christians were being stumbled by what is published on the web site. He gave me no specifics.
...

I would be more inclined to place the root of these actions on the sins of George, not the exposing of the sins.  So if we just keep quiet about the sins and great deceptions of men like George does that make everything better? Is Christianity about coverup?  Perhaps Samuel is from a different culture than I am, but I am having a difficult time comprehending this idea in any culture. George's actions had serious implications, yet Samuel chose to address Steve rather than George.  This is very strange indeed.

...
He told me he didn't want to say anything negative about George in the hopes that should George someday repent, he might be able to restore his relationship with George. While in the US he never contacted George, but he did visit Mike Almanzor. He repeated that the best thing for all of us to do was to pray for George's repentance and recovery. That's what he wished that I would do.
...

I guess that this paragraph may explain some of it.  So I guess that Samuel must think that he can only have a right relationship with George in the future if he doesn't speak bad about his actions now???  If George truly repented, then I think that he would be pleased if Samuel was faithful to something of greater value then a relationship with Mr. Geftakys.  In my opinion this is the time for Samuel to speak up against the actions of GG.  If he doesn't, wouldn't people be more inclined to lump him in with Men like GG?  I think that we should be pursuing the truth, not coverup. Coverup didn't work in Watergate, and it won't work here!  I for one do would not want to be a partaker in George's Sin by participating in a coverup, and I would have hoped that Samuel would have felt the same way.

[mithrandir]

I just read Steve Irons' account of his meeting with Samuel, and of Samuel's visists to the Fullerton and Placentia assemblies.  I do not want to be a sycophant to anyone, especially Steve.  But I have to say that what I read confirms all my suspicions about Samuel, about the Nigerian assemblies, and about Placentia.  I know now that every shot I fired over the last three or four months was accurate.  As far as Fullerton, their brief dawn - their window of opportunity to wake up and get out of there - seems to have passed.  They have willingly chosen darkness.  I believe they are now turning into a full-blown cult.

One more thing: I believe the reason Samuel said and preached the things he did in his visit is because he has fallen prey to the same hierarchical, prideful thinking that was embraced by all the Geftakysites.  After all, the Nigerian assemblies were the direct result of George's influence on Samuel.  To a far greater degree than most are willing to admit, the Nigerian assemblies patterned themselves after what they saw in George and in Fullerton.  If it should all be exposed as false, Samuel and others - but especially Samuel - have a lot to lose, in terms of power, influence and prestige.  This is a hard thing to say, and I know it will be upsetting to some on this bb.  For that I am sorry.  But it still must be said.  Note also that I have heard from at least one and maybe more that Samuel has been slow to tell the Nigerian assemblies about what happened with George.

One thing about Placentia: Jack Hanson's address may not be on the geftakysassembly website, but it's still on the Rick Ross website - just as it should be.  After all, not only is he a leader, but assembly meetings are held in his home.  Also, I know things about how he handled himself in December and January of this year in the issue of George's exposure - and I may soon post these things.

Clarence Thompson

[jackhutchinson]

Last year at a prayer meeting in SLO I learned that Samuel's brother (named 'Sunday') had left the ministry, then returned, then finally left for good.  We were told that he was publicly critical of Samuel and the ministry.  I remember thinking at the time that Sunday must have been a deceived instrument of the devil, just like I thought Brent was.  I hope I'm wrong, but if Samuel is telling people to be faithful to the 'vision' it doesn't look good.  I wonder what the story was with Sunday.

I remember Samuel telling stories in SLO about miracles God did for them in Nigeria.  I do believe God does miracles.  But, if God has so miraculously worked wonders in Samuel's ministry and life, then how did Samuel not see (or not say something publicly about) GG's wickedness?  After all, we all got the impression that God spoke to and led these men in incredible situations.  They risk being killed by serpents and witch doctors according to the stories we heard (in GG's letters).  Why weren't they bold enough to rebuke a wicked man?  Maybe it's easier to see it in a witchdoctor than a false prophet like George.

I post this with an attitude of just asking questions.  I know Samuel has access to the internet (my former roommate emailed him at least once).  Maybe he could post on this board so we could know exactly where he stands.

Well, after reading Steve's account of Samuel's visit, I guess I have my answer regarding where Samuel stands.  How sad.  When I read that Samuel had planned on confronting GG at last year's workers' conference (but changed his mind because he didn't think it was appropriate behavior for him as a 'visitor') my first thought was, "Yeah, all those 'godly' leaders had an excuse".

Jack

[mithrandir]

Oh my...and I told myself that I wouldn't do this again.

I just read the update on the status of existing assemblies on the geftakysassembly website.  So,...is it true that in Fullerton, "Tim and Rod are again preaching, and Rod is leading some meetings.  Although Tim is not currently recognized as an elder, he is sought out by individuals for shepherding and counsel, and also visits groups and individuals in other localities, especially Placentia"?  If so, this confirms a suspicion I've had for a few weeks now.  (BTW, I already knew about Tim's shenanigans in Placentia.)

My suspicion is this: what was done by George and his henchmen (leading brothers, elders and some workers) was so outstandingly bad that when it was exposed, it provoked the strongest outrage among those who used to be part of the "flock."  The leaders (except for George) saw that it was impossible to sweep these things under the rug and continue with business as usual.  So they made an elaborate show of "repentance."  But their repentance consisted of walking about with sad faces in an elaborate show of "godly sorrow" in order to get gullible members of the flock to say, "My, look how they have repented!  They have shed tears; it's obvious that they have suffered as much as we have through this ordeal.  Let's cut them some slack; I mean, there are some people out there who are so mean-spirited that they jump all over Tim G whenever he does anything.  Can't we trust?  Can't we forgive?"  (I actually heard this from a young man whose family is still in bondage in Fullerton.)  This elaborate show was just what hypocrites do, in order to be seen suffering by men, in order to be noticed by them (see Matthew 6).  And it has produced its intended effect: a gushing forth of sympathy, and a renewed trust in these men, seeing that the mistrust of the flock "hurts and discourages the former leaders."  

But what would real repentance look like?  First, an admission - both publicly and from individual to individual - that the leaders screwed up, that they committed malpractice of the worst degree, that they are utterly unfit to lead anything ever again.  Then, second, leaving the existing assemblies and becoming nobodies in need of healing and cleansing at a healthy church.  None of the leaders in Fullerton has openly admitted the magnitude and extent of their failure.  In my case, I can testify that two of the leaders said some pretty idiotic things to me during recent run-ins I had with them.  They seem to think I'm stupid; one of them was talking like I had left because of doctrinal errors implanted in my head by Steve Irons!  That is simply not the case.  Not only do I not look to Steve Irons as a guiding light of any kind, but I left Fullerton because of the way I and others had been abused.

What these leaders are actually doing by continuing to hang around the Fullerton gathering is to wring sympathy from the gullible as a means of insinuating themselves back into leadership.  May God bring their way to a swift end.

mithrandir

P.S.  As far as I know, Placentia still has training homes, and still remains a very dangerous group.

[editor]

But what would real repentance look like?  First, an admission - both publicly and from individual to individual - that the leaders screwed up, that they committed malpractice of the worst degree, that they are utterly unfit to lead anything ever again.  Then, second, leaving the existing assemblies and becoming nobodies in need of healing and cleansing at a healthy church.  None of the leaders in Fullerton has openly admitted the magnitude and extent of their failure.  In my case, I can testify that two of the leaders said some pretty idiotic things to me during recent run-ins I had with them.  They seem to think I'm stupid; one of them was talking like I had left because of doctrinal errors implanted in my head by Steve Irons!  That is simply not the case.  Not only do I not look to Steve Irons as a guiding light of any kind, but I left Fullerton because of the way I and others had been abused.

What these leaders are actually doing by continuing to hang around the Fullerton gathering is to wring sympathy from the gullible as a means of insinuating themselves back into leadership.  May God bring their way to a swift end.

mithrandir

Yes, I agree.

I know Steve and Margaret read this.  I hope they realize that the duplicitous signals being sent out of the various gatherings are mostly designed to minimize the truth that is coming from the website.  

I agree, repentance doesn't look like this.  Also, the reluctance on the part of many current leaders to accept the REASONS people left as valid is also a cause of concern.  Instead of hearing what people are actually saying, the often times want to blame everything on Brent, or now on Steve.   So much for hearing God's voice!  Megaphones don't work too well with some of these guys!  Blunt trauma seems to be about the only thing.

Brent

[faith]

These men are shepherding again!!!!  Sick.  Can you imagine trusting them for any kind of compassionate counselling?  How did they respond to the abuses perpetrated by George when they were discovered?  Did they run to the aid of the abused?  Did they give counsel or financial aid to any who had been robbed by George spiritually or financially?  Did they try to counsel devastated families?  Did any of you get phone calls from Rod or Tim asking for forgiveness?  I was in close association with both and have not heard from them.  What does it take for these poor sheep to wake up and see how bad it is?  They are just setting themselves up for further abuse.

I'm kind of like Mithrandir.  I only get stirred up to post when I hear horrible news like this again.  

Just when I thought it was safe to go on living my life again...
Faith (struggling)

[M2]

WARNING: This is just a joke. Please do NOT update the website with this info.

I hear that the assembly in the DC area is down to one couple: Ann and Dale.

(this is not one of my originals)

Marcia

[M2]

My suspicion is this: what was done by George and his henchmen (leading brothers, elders and some workers) was so outstandingly bad that when it was exposed, it provoked the strongest outrage among those who used to be part of the "flock."  The leaders (except for George) saw that it was impossible to sweep these things under the rug and continue with business as usual.  So they made an elaborate show of "repentance."  But their repentance consisted of walking about with sad faces in an elaborate show of "godly sorrow" in order to get gullible members of the flock to say, "My, look how they have repented!  They have shed tears; it's obvious that they have suffered as much as we have through this ordeal.  Let's cut them some slack; I mean, there are some people out there who are so mean-spirited that they jump all over Tim G whenever he does anything.  Can't we trust?  Can't we forgive?"  (I actually heard this from a young man whose family is still in bondage in Fullerton.)  This elaborate show was just what hypocrites do, in order to be seen suffering by men, in order to be noticed by them (see Matthew 6).  And it has produced its intended effect: a gushing forth of sympathy, and a renewed trust in these men, seeing that the mistrust of the flock "hurts and discourages the former leaders."  

But what would real repentance look like?  First, an admission - both publicly and from individual to individual - that the leaders screwed up, that they committed malpractice of the worst degree, that they are utterly unfit to lead anything ever again.  Then, second, leaving the existing assemblies and becoming nobodies in need of healing and cleansing at a healthy church.  None of the leaders in Fullerton has openly admitted the magnitude and extent of their failure.  In my case, I can testify that two of the leaders said some pretty idiotic things to me during recent run-ins I had with them.  They seem to think I'm stupid; one of them was talking like I had left because of doctrinal errors implanted in my head by Steve Irons!  That is simply not the case.  Not only do I not look to Steve Irons as a guiding light of any kind, but I left Fullerton because of the way I and others had been abused.

What these leaders are actually doing by continuing to hang around the Fullerton gathering is to wring sympathy from the gullible as a means of insinuating themselves back into leadership.  May God bring their way to a swift end.

My suspicion too. If they can get others feeling sorry for them then the others may get distracted enough to not deal with the 'real' issues. One medical person labelled a particular past leader as a 'patholigical liar'. A pathological liar cannot help himself but lie. He will lie as long as he sees a way out (or thinks he sees a way out). ie fake repentance.

But what would real repentance look like?  First, an admission - both publicly and from individual to individual - that the leaders screwed up, that they committed malpractice of the worst degree, that they are utterly unfit to lead anything ever again.  Then, second, leaving the existing assemblies and becoming nobodies in need of healing and cleansing at a healthy church.
Yup! I agree with you there.

I quote from a movie:
A man who tells the truth is bound to be found out sooner or later. Try sincerity, there's no other virtue.

I think that some leaders are taking the above quote to heart.

Marcia

[chrisnortonfan1]

WARNING: This is just a joke. Please do NOT update the website with this info.

I hear that the assembly in the DC area is down to one couple: Ann and Dale.

(this is not one of my originals)

Marcia

Oh, no, painful memories of East Coast Conferences past are not floating through my head.  Did you have to bring up a bad Ottawa joke, Marcia??? ...Although when I heard it told, it was "hey, did you hear about the two sisters in Annandale?, Ann and Dale?  Get it?  Funny?  hahaha?".  It took me three years of therapy to get over that.
Since this is my first post, I would like to say I am enjoying watching the action on this BB.  Enlightening stuff.  
Noel
formerly of the Annandale assembly

[M2]

Oh, no, painful memories of East Coast Conferences past are not floating through my head.  Did you have to bring up a bad Ottawa joke, Marcia??? ...Although when I heard it told, it was "hey, did you hear about the two sisters in Annandale?, Ann and Dale?  Get it?  Funny?  hahaha?".  It took me three years of therapy to get over that.
Since this is my first post, I would like to say I am enjoying watching the action on this BB.  Enlightening stuff.  
Noel
formerly of the Annandale assembly

Hi Noel,

What did it take 3 years to get over? Was it the joke or the assembly experience or both?

Hope you will post more often.

Lord bless,
Marcia

PS Noel. did you know that the Anandale assembly meets in Springfield? Just a little trivia for you.
MM