Existing Assemblies

[mithrandir]

I have an unconfirmed report that the assembly in Manchester has dissolved.  Can anyone verify this?

Clarence Thompson

[al Hartman]

I "did" the tapes in San Diego.
   ...There are a few of GG if someone really wants to hear his voice again.

David,

     You and anyone else who has tapes of GG, BG, DG or TG should hang onto them.  If someone ever does file a legal action (before the statute of limitations runs out), there may be something of value toward the case to be gleaned from them.
     It is also feasable that one of the cultbuster groups may want to peruse them for evidence of heresy and/or brainwashing.
     In the meantime, they should be kept both safe and secure.  Only someone strong in the faith should ever have to screen them for usable material with which to expose or prosecute...

     There may be others whose messages should be saved for the same reasons, but someone with more recent assembly experience than mine will have to name them...

al

[moonflower2]

I've got a bunch of Torch and Testimonies, if anyone is interested. In one of them, there is a picture of a hand putting money into the box-at-the-back-of-the-room, that we don't talk about or tell anyone to put anything into.  

 A friend of mine had asked me where all the money went, and after I gave her the usual spiel, she told me that George was taking the money. Fancy that! There was an article about giving in the particular T & T that she had read. This was before 1990.

Anyway, I have a pile of T & T's going way back to the 70's when the front cover had a guy holding a torch. If they would be helpful to anyone, you are welcome to them.

[Oscar]

I "did" the tapes in San Diego.
   ...There are a few of GG if someone really wants to hear his voice again.

David,

     You and anyone else who has tapes of GG, BG, DG or TG should hang onto them.  If someone ever does file a legal action (before the statute of limitations runs out), there may be something of value toward the case to be gleaned from them.
     It is also feasable that one of the cultbuster groups may want to peruse them for evidence of heresy and/or brainwashing.
     In the meantime, they should be kept both safe and secure.  Only someone strong in the faith should ever have to screen them for usable material with which to expose or prosecute...

     There may be others whose messages should be saved for the same reasons, but someone with more recent assembly experience than mine will have to name them...

al

Al,

I have a tape of the LB's meeting where GG is ranting and raving about Mark Campbell wanting his wedding to be in the Valley.  You weren't there, and I was supposed to give it to you.

He had decided that you put them up to it.

I listened to it a year ago when this BB first went up.  It made me feel some of the emotions I used to feel back in those days.  

Scary.  

1975 or 76 I think.

You don't want to hear it...believe me.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

[al Hartman]

Al,

I have a tape of the LB's meeting where GG is ranting and raving about Mark Campbell wanting his wedding to be in the Valley.  You weren't there, and I was supposed to give it to you.

He had decided that you put them up to it.

I listened to it a year ago when this BB first went up.  It made me feel some of the emotions I used to feel back in those days.  

Scary.  

1975 or 76 I think.

You don't want to hear it...believe me.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Tom,

     I don't remember, but it's possible I did suggest it to them...  That would have been the only time I ever displeased George!    Mark, do you remember???

     It's hard for me to imagine how different my life might be today if only I'd been at that meeting or heard that tape...  Did you drop the ball, Tom, or were you protecting me?  In either case, thank you!!!

God bless,
al

[M2]

I've got a bunch of Torch and Testimonies, if anyone is interested. In one of them, there is a picture of a hand putting money into the box-at-the-back-of-the-room, that we don't talk about or tell anyone to put anything into.  

 A friend of mine had asked me where all the money went, and after I gave her the usual spiel, she told me that George was taking the money. Fancy that! There was an article about giving in the particular T & T that she had read. This was before 1990.

Anyway, I have a pile of T & T's going way back to the 70's when the front cover had a guy holding a torch. If they would be helpful to anyone, you are welcome to them.

Your friend certainly had more discernment than we did.  It is interesting that existing assembly sympathizers think that they can now switch on the discernment if they sincerely seek the Lord.  I was under the impression that we were all sincerely seeking the Lord before as well but...
Anyway, are you still involved with an existing assembly, moonflower?  I find that the more that I am out, the more I am getting refreshed and renewed in my thinking on spiritual matters.  The cloud remains over those who remain 'in' such that even the books they read and the other ministry they listen to remains clouded with the Geftakys slant.

The old T&T's have that neat artwork on the inside of the back cover,  I have saved my old copies just for the artwork.  The rest of the magazines are good for RRR - garbage recycling.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[Joe Sperling]

Marcia---

The older Torch and Testimonies were graced with
the artwork of Rand Bates, a very dear and talented brother. I still have the back of one T&T that Rand drew which shows two pilgrims winding upwards on a path through a forest and has the verse: "But the path of the just is as a burning light, that grows brighter and brighter until that perfect day".  I have it framed as a picture. It is a wonderful drawing. That's about all I ever liked abouth the Torch and Testimony---the articles were never as impressive as the artwork. Of course--just my opinion.

--Joe

[outdeep]

Concerning tapes:  During the Iron's age Exodus of 1990, there was a crack in the wall of testimony.  Instead of the enemy rushing in like a flood, many Saints hurried to escape.  At that time, the leading brothers were working overtime to do damage control.

George, while in Judges, always saw illusions to "elders who abandoned the flock".  

Dan Notti spoke of how we are a family and we don't badmouth our family to outsiders (just former elders to insiders?).  He may have added the marriage analogy of why we don't leave (basically our implied unrevokable commitment to fellowship even though we don't believe it church membership  ), but I don't remember.

Mark Miller, always one to lay things out on the line, spoke of the "Scriptural basis for leaving fellowship".  I recall his points were:
1.  You can leave if you move to where another Assembly is.
2.  You can leave if you are sent out into the work.
3.  If you leave in any other way, you are leaving in an unscriptural manner and causing division.
4.  Division = Heritic
5.  What do we do with heritics?  We mark them and avoid them.

I was so distraught over the message (and things going on at that time) that I wanted to do something more edifying than go to afternoon ministry such as go to the movies .  I just couldn't get myself to go back that day.  I really didn't want to go to the movies either.

So, I showed up unannounced at Tom Maddux'.  We knew each other (I lived next door to him at the Iron's) but we hadn't developed the friendship that we have now.  Tom gave me a "well, here's another one" look and invited me in.

The point of my story is this:  I always wished that before I left I checked out Mark Miller's tape and made a copy.  It was the most forthright statement about the Assembly's difficult exit process that I had ever heard.  We all knew it existed, but it was stunning to hear it laid out so boldly.

It's a mute point now since this problem with the Assembly is universially known and talked about.  However, there were many years I wished I had the tape and could distribute copies to others.

[Scott McCumber]

Dave,

When Bob and Carolyn Wenneborg "left fellowship" ca. 1980, a letter of excommunication was read to the Tuscola Assembly. They were not accused of any immorality or heresy. They were accused of "leaving fellowship".

I think this went along with "causing division", etc. It was also said, "They have even gone so far as to call Brother George an unfaithful shepherd."

This was said with gravest attitude and was followed by the obligatory gasps of shock and bewilderment!

This is an accurate account. I sat approximately 24 inches away from the speaker - my father.

That incident fortified my burgeoning ideas that something was fishy in the Assembly. I knew the Wenneborgs. Their sons were like my brothers. I knew they loved the Lord with all their hearts.

Conversely, I also knew George to be an overbearing, pompous ass and David to be a cruel, pompous moron.

BTW, my parents reconciled with the Wenneborgs and four years ago, my father returned to chiropractic practice with Bob. Bob died last year of prostate cancer. My dad still practices with Bob's son, Tim.

You'd think after 35 years of "practice", the old man could get it right!

S

[matthew r. sciaini]

Arthur:

About a year or two before the event I was helping to lock up the Fullerton accomodation after meetings.  My key not only helped me to lock up, but also let me help others into places such as the tape room.  One evening I thought I would take advantage of this (since I was there for something else already) and went inside.  Sure enough, there was a workers' meeting tape from Nov 1, 2002 (a month and a half before)  not erased yet.  I stuck it in and listened to it for a little bit, fastforwarded and listened some more.

Trust me, it was more tedious than anything else.

One fantasy that I never realized was to bug the board room for a Sunday evening brothers' meeting using a wire and a remote control switch attached to a tape recorder, somehow.  But I could never work out the time nor the details (nor the smoothness) ;|.

I'm sure any ex-leadership in Fullerton would either assume this is typical of me or would avoid me, or both. Hopefully none are reading right now.  

Matt Sciaini

[al Hartman]

Marcia---

The older Torch and Testimonies were graced with
the artwork of Rand Bates, a very dear and talented brother. I still have the back of one T&T that Rand drew which shows two pilgrims winding upwards on a path through a forest and has the verse: "But the path of the just is as a burning light, that grows brighter and brighter until that perfect day".  I have it framed as a picture. It is a wonderful drawing. That's about all I ever liked abouth the Torch and Testimony---the articles were never as impressive as the artwork. Of course--just my opinion.

--Joe

     Perhaps the reason that many of us found the T&T artwork more impressive than the articles is because we could actually understand the artwork!

al



     
     

[d3z]

Perhaps the reason that many of us found the T&T artwork more impressive than the articles is because we could actually understand the artwork!

When I was on an MTT to St. Louis, someone there found a poem on the back of the T&T and put it to music.  The poem was signed G.G., and he figured it must be GG.

People were a little surprised that the song made sense, though, (and that it rhymed, and was metrical).

Well, the poem was written by Ginger.

[outdeep]

My Experience As a Torch Editor

I got involved with the editing ministry because I assumed that the reason I couldn't always understand George was because I was a bit dimwitted and I needed the words to slow down so I could ponder them.

My job was to take out superfluous statements and then pass the text along to a final editor who (according to one editor) do “chapter summary” on George’s lecture and make it into a readable article.  For whatever you might say about the Torch, the editors were genuine and committed.  One would take her personal vacation time to finish up an article in order to meet a deadline.

I did some work with the Church in the Wilderness where the basic premise was, based on a verse in Stephen’s sermon in the book of Acts, we were the “church in the wilderness”.  This opened up the book of Numbers to George as everything that wandering Israel did was simply a type or foreshadowing of the church.  For example, we were brought out of Egypt (salvation), we were marching in the desert (in the world, not of the world), and we had to cross the Jordan to possess the land (conditional inheritance – Christians don’t get all the benefits of heaven if they don’t take personally work to enter in).

I remember one point in particular where he was spiritualizing the silver trumpets.  These were pictures of the weekly announcements.  If you weren’t responsive to the silver trumpets (announcements of meetings), then you would be left behind and lose the benefits of heaven, argued George.  I just couldn’t get out of my mind the ironic picture of this lone Israelite waking up one morning and peeking his head outside his tent to find that several million brethren had broken camp and left during the night without him knowing about it.  Nevertheless, you can see how the emotional connection between being faithful to meetings and eternal rewards was established.

In one seminar, George got two metaphors in his head and muddled them together.  One favorite metaphor he used often was that of a woman in travail.  He liked that idea that through travailing (emotional prayer, suffering, perseverance, struggle, etc.) one brings forth life.  In other words, suffer enough and you will get a breakthrough.  At the same time, he was using the verse about a seed that went into the ground and died resulting in fruit.

He combined the two metaphors together and began talking about a seed that is placed in the ground and then begins to travail.  Through laborious birth pangs, the seed gives birth to a plant.  I always remember that lecture as “the travailing seed”.

I’m not an agriculturist, but I knew that was wrong.  I simply had never observed intense breathing from the garden.  I brought this to Julie Ressegue who simply deadpanned, “Farmer George speaks again.”  I’m sure she fixed it up and made it very nice.

For me, it wasn’t long after that I dropped out of the editing ministry.

[Tony]

My Experience As a Torch Editor

I got involved with the editing ministry because I assumed that the reason I couldn't always understand George was because I was a bit dimwitted and I needed the words to slow down so I could ponder them.

[/i] ...where the basic premise was, based on a verse in Stephen’s sermon in the book of Acts, we were the “church in the wilderness”.  This opened up the book of Numbers to George as everything that wandering Israel did was simply a type or foreshadowing of the church.  For example, we were brought out of Egypt (salvation), we were marching in the desert (in the world, not of the world), and we had to cross the Jordan to possess the land (conditional inheritance – Christians don’t get all the benefits of heaven if they don’t take personally work to enter in).

...knowing about it.  Nevertheless, you can see how the emotional connection between being faithful to meetings and eternal rewards was established.

Dave...good stuff.   I think your perspectives as a former editor of the TnT would make a very interesting article on the Reflections site.  Maybe solicit input from other editors?   I was not a TnT reader...don't recall it being pushed much in St. Louis.   But from what I've seen related, it falls well within much of the *ministries*pattern...Just enough truth to bait the snare.  

fascinating...

God Bless, Tony .