Women preachers?

[Oscar]

Sorry,

I won't be able to vote, since I'll be going to the church down the street!

Thomas Maddux
Virulent Dog First Class

[lenore]

December 3 at 2:50 pm Arnprior

 :)I would vote but I am north of border.

Did anyone read in the Newspaper. For me it was today December 3rd Ottawa Citizen.
About the Methodist have a trial within their own ranks, and deflocking a woman minister for being a practicing homosexual.

The incident was location in on the states and an American Decision.

Any comments of what  you have read.

[vernecarty]

After speaking to one of the male members of this board, I was horrified to learn that he supported the submission of wives to their husbands as well as women not preaching. This didn't even come from Matt, but another male member. Where's the equality?
Love,
Laurie.

Actually. I don't at all mind women preachers...so long as, along with preaching men, they have lived a holy life. I would not for example, place too much stock in the ramblings of an adulteress...
Verne
p.s. this does not mean that I believe christian women should be leading their husbands around with a nose ring...

[outdeep]

This whole issue is one that I wish I could talk to the apostle Paul to determine what he was thinking.  When he writes in a letter to one group that women are to be silent in church and then to another group that they may pray and prophecy as long as they cover their heads, was he dealing with a specific cultural situations in these churches or was he laying down a timeless principle for all churches that transcends time and culture?

For example, when it comes to women covering their heads, the vast majority of churches interpreted it as cultural that has little application outside the specific circumstances in Corinth (a women uncovered is not looked upon as a temple prostitute today).   While Jesus and Paul spoke of literal wine in the Lord's supper, most see it as a cultural drink and have no problem using grape juice today (which is more accepted in our American-churchy culture than actual wine).  Even when Paul told Timothy to use a little wine for his ailments, we don't interprete this as "God's blueprint for healing for all churches" but an off hand remark dealing with a specific situation.  In short, we tend to "pick and choose" what we feel is cultural and what is a universal mandate.

What makes the issue even harder is what we call "church" is so different than what Paul called church.  While it is commonly accepted that women can teach in children's ministries, the elders at my church got into a discussion as to whether or not a woman can teach the college ministry (they concluded no because they are technically adults and the woman, a University professor, who wanted to teach left feeling she had nothing to offer).  The whole concept of "college ministry" Sunday school would never even have entered Paul's mind and he may not have had any problem with it.

I am not arguing one way or the other.  I just confess that I have always been rather confused on this issue.  On a personal level, I haven't heard too many women preachers and most I didn't care for (Kay Auther drives me nuts with her constantly calling me "beloved"), but then there are skilled women such as Elizabeth Elliot (who I do like) and Heneretta Meers who have done a fine job.

[al Hartman]

In short, we tend to "pick and choose" what we feel is cultural and what is a universal mandate.

Ah, but brethren, consider the convenience of the universal mandate!  In the assembly, there was no gnarly dispute over these matters-- it was all spelled out:  the leaders led and the followers followed;  the assembly was right and everyone else on the face of the earth was wrong.  What could be more blissfully simple?

Or is it possible that some among us think that the Lord intends for us (yet today!) to search the scriptures to discern and know whether or not these things are so?  To determine through an active and immediate relational involvement with our Father in heaven, our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, each and every question and crisis that arises?  Why, the very idea implies that God lives, that He hears, even listens to, and cares what happens with His people!  Praise and thanks be to God it is ever so!

al

[vernecarty]

I haven't heard too many women preachers and most I didn't care for (Kay Auther drives me nuts with her constantly calling me "beloved"), but then there are skilled women such as Elizabeth Elliot (who I do like) and Heneretta Meers who have done a fine job.

Like most questions of spiritual stewardship, it is a question I believe of God's gift and calling.
 
When I see a anyone, with great presumption, intruding themselves into holy things which they ought not and,  with self-proclaimed righteousness, I go:

"Uh Oh!"

One such deluded individual who shall remain nameless, has duly informed us of her "prophetic" prowess.
I guess being large and in charge of her domestic dormicile was insufficient ( Oh I know she has assured us that he is in charge...mmmppfff!! ) so that she also had to erect one in cyberspace. Contemptible fraud!  
This sort of course cannot endure the society of real men and so have to find solace in the company of pimple-faced  and anti-social juveniles. What a riot!
BrassWall's assessment was right on the money (the jilted female syndorome).
Luckily for me I was able to snatch some most insightful comments before they were summarily deleted. Truth patrol huh?
Maybe I will repost a little bit of real truth  
 
Isn't it amazing that some people who don't even have the maturity, spiritual or otherwise, to maintain a stable and godly marital realtionship can think that God has called them to be prophets and prophetesses?
Heaven help us!  
Verne
p.s.  There is something really forced- sounding about Kay Arthur's teaching, although I have never actually  heard her say anything that I disagreed with to my knowledge.

[Oscar]

Folks,

There is a poll box at the top of this thread.  I just noticed it.

It asks us to vote about whether we would prefer to hear Matt or Laurie preach.

This reminds me of the logical fallacy of Complex Question.  This is a question like, "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

If you say "yes" or "no" you lose, because of the structure of the question.

Whoever put this poll question up needs to add an option....."Neither".

Thomas Maddux

[Oscar]

Verne,

You said:

Isn't it amazing that some people who don't even have the maturity, spiritual or otherwise, to maintain a stable and godly marital realtionship can think that God has called them to be prophets and prophetesses?
Heaven help us!  

You seem to see people in good/bad terms.  When I read the above I thought, "What does he do with David?"

David was a prophet...Acts 2:30, a revelator of God's word...Heb 4:7, an example of faithfulness...Heb 11:32, a man after God's heart.

Yet David was a bloody man, an adulterer, and arranged the murder of Uriah the Hittite.  He also had multiple wives, and allowed idols in his house!  One of them was so big that he hid it in his bed to deceive the servants of Saul.  In addition, his kids were a mess and under his indulgent rule committed rape, murder and rebellion.

David, quite frankly, far exceeded the evils of George Geftakys!

How do you reconcile these two sides of David's life?  He displayed both a passion for God and passions that led him into heinous crimes against God an man.

Hmmmmmmm.  

Thomas Maddux

[M2]

Verne,

You said:

Isn't it amazing that some people who don't even have the maturity, spiritual or otherwise, to maintain a stable and godly marital realtionship can think that God has called them to be prophets and prophetesses?
Heaven help us!  

You seem to see people in good/bad terms.  When I read the above I thought, "What does he do with David?"

David was a prophet...Acts 2:30, a revelator of God's word...Heb 4:7, an example of faithfulness...Heb 11:32, a man after God's heart.

Yet David was a bloody man, an adulterer, an arranged the murder of Uriah the Hittite.  He also was had multiple wives, and allowed idols in his house!  One of them was so big that he hid it in his bed to deceive the servants of Saul.  In addition, his kids were a mess and under his indulgent rule committed rape, murder and rebellion.

David, quite frankly, far exceeded the evils of George Geftakys!

How do you reconcile these two sides of David's life?  He displayed both a passion for God and passions that led him into heinous crimes against God an man.

Hmmmmmmm.  

Thomas Maddux

All George needs now is for Nathan to visit him eh??

Marcia

[Oscar]

Verne,

You said:

Isn't it amazing that some people who don't even have the maturity, spiritual or otherwise, to maintain a stable and godly marital realtionship can think that God has called them to be prophets and prophetesses?
Heaven help us!  

You seem to see people in good/bad terms.  When I read the above I thought, "What does he do with David?"

David was a prophet...Acts 2:30, a revelator of God's word...Heb 4:7, an example of faithfulness...Heb 11:32, a man after God's heart.

Yet David was a bloody man, an adulterer, an arranged the murder of Uriah the Hittite.  He also was had multiple wives, and allowed idols in his house!  One of them was so big that he hid it in his bed to deceive the servants of Saul.  In addition, his kids were a mess and under his indulgent rule committed rape, murder and rebellion.

David, quite frankly, far exceeded the evils of George Geftakys!

How do you reconcile these two sides of David's life?  He displayed both a passion for God and passions that led him into heinous crimes against God an man.

Hmmmmmmm.  

Thomas Maddux

All George needs now is for Nathan to visit him eh??

Marcia

Would I love to see that!

Thomas Maddux

[vernecarty]

Verne,

You said:

Isn't it amazing that some people who don't even have the maturity, spiritual or otherwise, to maintain a stable and godly marital realtionship can think that God has called them to be prophets and prophetesses?
Heaven help us!  

You seem to see people in good/bad terms.  When I read the above I thought, "What does he do with David?"

David was a prophet...Acts 2:30, a revelator of God's word...Heb 4:7, an example of faithfulness...Heb 11:32, a man after God's heart.

Yet David was a bloody man, an adulterer, and arranged the murder of Uriah the Hittite.  He also had multiple wives, and allowed idols in his house!  One of them was so big that he hid it in his bed to deceive the servants of Saul.  In addition, his kids were a mess and under his indulgent rule committed rape, murder and rebellion.

David, quite frankly, far exceeded the evils of George Geftakys!

How do you reconcile these two sides of David's life?  He displayed both a passion for God and passions that led him into heinous crimes against God an man.

Hmmmmmmm.  

Thomas Maddux

Don't forget about Hosea and Gomer!  
Of course she never claimed to be a prophetess now did she?
You make an excellent point. So far as I know George Geftakys did not have anyone murdered.
You are also probably keenly aware that I speak of the standard of a new dispensation and that is the one in which we are presumably indwelt by the Spirit of God.
The fact of the matter is though, apart from God's grace we are all scounderels of the same ilk as the son of Jesse are we not?  
Verne
p.s. If someone came up to you and claimed to be prophet today, (forget about philandering and adultering for the moment), what proofs of such an exalted standing would one reasonably require?  
I trust  we would look askance at someone we knew to be a murderous, philandering, adulterous, bigamous liar would we not? Of course we don't have any record of David being a liar.
He quickly acknowledged his sin when confronted and did not spend decades pretending to be what he was not.
Maybe that is the difference?  

[vernecarty]

All George needs now is for Nathan to visit him eh??

Marcia

But the thing that George had done displeased the Lord.

Nathan:  There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
 The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:
 But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.  And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.


George:  As the Lord liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die: And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.


Nathan:  Thou art the man.


George:  HOW DARE YOU SPEAK AGAINST THE LORD'S SERVANT???!!!!

...or something like that...
Verne

[M2]

All George needs now is for Nathan to visit him eh??

Marcia

But the thing that George had done displeased the Lord.

Nathan:  There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
 The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:
 But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.  And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.


George:  As the Lord liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die: And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.


Nathan:  Thou art the man.


George:  HOW DARE YOU SPEAK AGAINST THE LORD'S SERVANT???!!!!

...or somethinkg like that...
Verne

I believe you've nailed it Verne.

I know a sister, whom Tom knows, and a women preacher in keeping with this thread, who spoke to George about making things right with God's people.  She got a "don't preach at me!!!" response.

Marcia

[vernecarty]

I believe you've nailed it Verne.

I know a sister, whom Tom knows, and a women preacher in keeping with this thread, who spoke to George about making things right with God's people.  She got a "don't preach at me!!!" response.

Marcia

There is no Biblical example of any true servant of God who failed, or even delayed to repent when confronted with their sin.
There are some who made a show of repentance but were rejected nontheless. It was too late. God has apparently hardened the heart of Geftakys.
The man is a type, intended for our warning.

The men who served with George Geftakys will bear witness that he received entreaty from nobobdy and certainly not from them. Samuel claims that he and Roger on many occasions pleaded with the man but is that all they are going to offer their Lord and Master?
That they pleaded?!
Paul says he withstood Peter to his very face!
What you had were boys pretending to be men.
By the way, I am a little sad to hear some of the things they are saying about Billy Graham's comments on the recently released tapes of Nixon conversations. Particularly his apparent denial of things now proven to be the case.
The man has served long and well so I certainly do not begrudge him his salary but I think his critics have been given an opening on the matter of the minstry's lavish support of his kids.
I still have the two checks a little CMA church wrote me from a number of years back when I visited them after the pastor left...just couldn't cash 'em....didn't seem right to get paid for opening the Scriptures...no criticism intended of others mind you...
 
Verne

[sfortescue]

By the way, I am a little sad to hear some of the things they are saying about Billy Graham's comments on the recently released tapes of Nixon conversations. Particularly his apparent denial of things now proven to be the case.

I would suggest that you should not be so hasty to judge.  Politicians at that level are master manipulators.  Conversing with them is a lot like speaking with the devil himself.

It's possibile that moments after he had spoken, he had corrected his wording, thus accounting for his lapse of memory of the first form of his words.

Another possibility is that he was somehow tricked into using the wrong word in such a way that he himself thought that he was using one word, and a different word came out without his realizing it.  People who are masters of psychological manipulation know how to do such tricks.