Women preachers?

[vernecarty]

I challenge anyone to provide a single Biblical or historical example!


Nebuchadnezzar, but even he REPENTED.

I said no true servant of Jesus Christ. Although it is true that God used this man for his own purposes (as He does with very life), by my definition he would not really qualify.

We now have the Spirit dwelling within.


I have a question about this one. In David's prayer, after his realization of his sins, he prayed: ...and take not thy Holy Spirit from me...

Good observation. Here is an interesting comment by Charles C Ryrie:

" The Holy Spirit did have a minsitry in Old Testament times...it was limited to certain  Israelites (except for the general ministry of restraining evil, which affected all men): and although He did dwell in, come upon, and sometimes fill men, He did not do these things universally or permanently, even in Israel. Too, He did not perform certain other ministries until the day of Pentecost"

What you are saying, Verne, is that since we have the indwelling of the spirit, that we were given more than the OT saints, and that we are more responsible for sin than they were?

This seems to me the principle that the Lord Himself invoked, yes.

Verne,

My suggestion would be that you spend some time reflecting on the question: "Why do I invest so much of myself in this issue"?

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

You know the answer to that as well as I do.
Every man that was involved with George Geftakys, myself included, must have asked himself the question:

Could this happen to me?!

Your point is well taken though my friend.
It is indeed time to move on. Pray for me will ya?
Verne

[moonflower2]

I challenge anyone to provide a single Biblical or historical example!


Nebuchadnezzar, but even he REPENTED.

I said no true servant of Jesus Christ. Although it is true that God used this man for his own purposes (as He does with very life), by my definition he would not really qualify.

I know what you were asking, but I couldn't resist making the comparison, especially since, I think, GG's behaviour more closely resembles this OT king who didn't even know the God of heaven.

King George, oops I mean, King Nebuchadnezzar was very proud and served himself.

King George, I mean, King Neb was filled with rage against Daniel & friends who dared to stand against him, and threw them into the firey furnace.

King Neb, I mean, King George excommunicated anyone who dared to stand against him.

King GG's wife told victims of his tyranny that they would BRING DOWN a world-wide ministry if they came out with the truth.

God brought down Nebuchadnezzar.

I find these passages to be particularly encouraging in the way that God kept the kingdom for Nebuchadnezzar and gave it back to him when Neb regained his sanity. God left the "stump of the tree" in the ground. He didn't forsake Neb or cut him down permanently, but gave him a chance for repentance. In the end, Neb regained all that he had before plus the added excellence of knowing God.

Thanks for answering my other questions.

[al Hartman]

Tom, Verne, Marcia, and all readers of this thread,

My sincere thanks for investing the time and prayer to help me out with my question.  In retrospect, my idea was ill-conceived, and may have seemed to some to be a time-waster.  My apology to all who feel their time was wasted while reading my posts and the replies they brought.  My own time, however, was well spent...

Mine was the attitude of someone who had sat on a splinter and was now seeking support from others in a class action suit against the chair maker.  In a word, my attitude was wrong.  Those who responded to my posts have helped me to realize that.  I do take to heart the counsel I am given and ask the Lord's help to receive His teaching from it (whether I like it or not).  Sometimes I'm a little slower than others in coming around...  Your patience is truly appreciated.

Gratefully in Christ,
al

[al Hartman]

I hold no position on the state of George's soul at any given point in time, except that, regardless of whether or not he has ever truly received Christ, he is presently in terrible danger of the Lord's judgment.

Whether his peril would be greater one way or the other, I do not know.  But I would not like to face his fate at this moment in either case.

As to these words of Verne's:

George Geftakys refused to acknowledge his transgression...
This argument I agree is unassailable and quite conclusive.
No true servant of God would do what George Geftakys has done.

I challenge anyone to provide a single Biblical or historical example!

...consider Jonah.  This man was used of God in a mighty way, and even served as an illustrative type of the Redeemer that was to come.  To be sure, he prayed strongly from the depths of Sheol (by reason of his affliction).  Yet after his deliverance, he was as sour and pitiless as before, without compassion, refusing to agree with God and wishing to die rather than acknowledge his sin.

One must wonder why the Word of God cuts short the accounting of Jonah's life as it does.  He did not make the roster of Hebrews 11, unless he is namelessly included among "the prophets" (v.32h).

Jonah was not George, but Jonah was willing to allow over 120,000 souls die, and was not in the least pleased that God spared them...

Just something to chew on...

God bless,
al

[vernecarty]

Tom, Verne, Marcia, and all readers of this thread,

My sincere thanks for investing the time and prayer to help me out with my question.  In retrospect, my idea was ill-conceived, and may have seemed to some to be a time-waster.  My apology to all who feel their time was wasted while reading my posts and the replies they brought.  My own time, however, was well spent...

Mine was the attitude of someone who had sat on a splinter and was now seeking support from others in a class action suit against the chair maker.  In a word, my attitude was wrong.  Those who responded to my posts have helped me to realize that.  I do take to heart the counsel I am given and ask the Lord's help to receive His teaching from it (whether I like it or not).  Sometimes I'm a little slower than others in coming around...  Your patience is truly appreciated.

Gratefully in Christ,
al

His grace is sufficient...for you and for me...

P.S. to all,

There's a new article posted on GA.com
MM

Thanks for the alert Marcia. That article is quite encouraging and I wish I could talk to the author. I would argue that his experience is what should have been normative for every single assembly attendant who truly loved Jesus Christ, and who was led by the Spirit of the living God...how instructive!

"I shall never again willingly go into a situation, such as this training home, that limits my freedom. Freedom is too valuable a possession to be given in exchange for even the prospect of learning something. It would be better learned as a free man. But the Lord knows this, and veiled this fact from me before he brought me here to teach me valuable lessons. I'm still not sure yet what they are."

This brother really understands the gospel. I predict that he will be greatly used of God. As to other lessons? none needed!  


Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

I find these passages to be particularly encouraging in the way that God kept the kingdom for Nebuchadnezzar and gave it back to him when Neb regained his sanity. God left the "stump of the tree" in the ground. He didn't forsake Neb or cut him down permanently, but gave him a chance for repentance. In the end, Neb regained all that he had before plus the added excellence of knowing God.

Thanks for answering my other questions.

Anytime.
There is no evidence that Nebuchadnezzar knew the path of righteousness and then turned from it. While he witnessed the remarkable deliverance of Shadrach and company, his response to that experience was apparently only lip service.
George preached from the Bible for decades.
Do you think God intends to recover him as he did king Neb?
Verne

Verne

[moonflower2]

I find these passages to be particularly encouraging in the way that God kept the kingdom for Nebuchadnezzar and gave it back to him when Neb regained his sanity. God left the "stump of the tree" in the ground. He didn't forsake Neb or cut him down permanently, but gave him a chance for repentance. In the end, Neb regained all that he had before plus the added excellence of knowing God.

Thanks for answering my other questions.

Anytime.
There is no evidence that Nebuchadnezzar knew the path of righteousness and then turned from it. While he witnessed the remarkable deliverance of Shadrach and company, his response to that experience was apparently only lip service.
George preached from the Bible for decades.

Do you think God intends to recover him as he did king Neb?
Verne

Verne

I realize that comparing King Neb to King GG is an imperfect match. Neb was not a believer and was not converted after Daniel's furnace survival.

I don't have a clue as to whether God intends to recover George and wondered if someone would conclude that that is what I was suggesting because of the comparison that I made. It is not.

The only similarities I see between King G and King Neb are the problems they have/had with pride, and that they both served themselves, and raged against anyone who dared to stand against them. It makes me realize again how serious is the state of King GG at this time, when one can compare him and his behavior to an unbeliever's.

Is he truly a believer if he can cause devastation in the lives of so many and yet remain aloof to the situation, especially to the situation caused in the lives of younger ones who were looking to him to be an example of what God's servant should be like.

The longer his refusal to make it right with those he offended, his refusal to answer to anyone for his behavior, and in essence, his refusal to repent, go on, the less likely it seems to me, that he will turn and repent.

The thing that touched me about Neb's conversion was that God took the time to work with a man as proud as Neb. Like Paul, King Neb had been severely persecuting the Lord's people without even knowing what he was really doing. (Interesting that Neb's son was done away with in one night, it seems because he had seen how God had worked in Neb's life, and still refused to humble himself before God.)

When I read the passages about King Neb, it gives me encouragement to know that if God spent all that time with Neb, to bring him around, that He is willing also to spend that kind of time to bring us back to him, also, when we take a wrong path.

 

[vernecarty]

I realize that comparing King Neb to King GG is an imperfect match. Neb was not a believer and was not converted after Daniel's furnace survival.

I don't have a clue as to whether God intends to recover George and wondered if someone would conclude that that is what I was suggesting because of the comparison that I made. It is not.

The only similarities I see between King G and King Neb are the problems they have/had with pride, and that they both served themselves, and raged against anyone who dared to stand against them. It makes me realize again how serious is the state of King GG at this time, when one can compare him and his behavior to an unbeliever's.

Is he truly a believer if he can cause devastation in the lives of so many and yet remain aloof to the situation, especially to the situation caused in the lives of younger ones who were looking to him to be an example of what God's servant should be like.

The longer his refusal to make it right with those he offended, his refusal to answer to anyone for his behavior, and in essence, his refusal to repent, go on, the less likely it seems to me, that he will turn and repent.

The thing that touched me about Neb's conversion was that God took the time to work with a man as proud as Neb. Like Paul, King Neb had been severely persecuting the Lord's people without even knowing what he was really doing. (Interesting that Neb's son was done away with in one night, it seems because he had seen how God had worked in Neb's life, and still refused to humble himself before God.)

When I read the passages about King Neb, it gives me encouragement to know that if God spent all that time with Neb, to bring him around, that He is willing also to spend that kind of time to bring us back to him, also, when we take a wrong path.

 

It is an incredible fact that there was no man who ever lived, or who will live, that can ever wield more raw, undiluted power than King Neb. He was the incomparable, inimitable head of gold!
That is pretty amazing when you consider the awesome authority the Anti-Christ will have.
It makes one wonder why God chose to have mercy on King Neb but hardened the heart of Pharoah.
You are right about Belteshazzar in that he should have known better. Pharoah also saw repeated demonstrations of God's power but refused to relent.
I wonder if George really believed all that fiery rhetoric he would engage in about what was at stake? The possibility of "loosing out"?
"Missing God's best"?
How many people lay awake at night fretting about whether or not they would indeed be "overcomers"?
He was either a man of remarkable cynicism (suggesting that he never believed one word of it was the case), or if he does indeed believe it and did what he did,  he is someone God has cursed with insanity.
Whenever I think of George Geftakys, I think abour the verse that says:

 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Ssomebody asked why I "invested"  so much in this issue of Georgie boy.
I intend to hold him front and center in my own consciousness until the day I die- even if I stop talking about him.
There is a stupefying ruthlessness with which God will take a life that contemns, dishonors and mocks Him, and literally turn it into a by-word or a proverb. No doubt after all those years, Geftakys had convinced himself, as he had others, that he could get away with it.  Who is sufficient for these things?!

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

This verse unabashedly teaches that the lives some people live, God intends to be an object lesson to his children. We shoud thank Him for the likes of George Geftakys, and I am not joking.

God could not have given me a more terrifying incentive to truly pursue holiness. This is not a game, by any means. It is possible to make ship-wreck one's "faith".
The books of Hebrews and  2 Peter now literally blaze with new light for me personally in view of the life lived by the apostate Geftakys. I consider myself duly warned...
Verne

[moonflower2]

He was either a man of remarkable cynicism (suggesting that he never believed one word of it was the case), or if he does indeed believe it and did what he did,  he is someone God has cursed with insanity.
Whenever I think of George Geftakys, I think abour the verse that says:

 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Ssomebody asked why I "invested"  so much in this issue of Georgie boy.
I intend to hold him front and center in my own consciousness until the day I die- even if I stop talking about him.
There is a stupefying ruthlessness with which God will take a life that contemns, dishonors and mocks Him, and literally turn it into a by-word or a proverb. No doubt after all those years, Geftakys had convinced himself, as he had others, that he could get away with it.  Who is sufficient for these things?!

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

This verse unabashedly teaches that the lives some people live, God intends to be an object lesson to his children. We shoud thank Him for the likes of George Geftakys, and I am not joking.

God could not have given me a more terrifying incentive to truly pursue holiness. This is not a game, by any means. It is possible to make ship-wreck one's "faith".
The books of Hebrews and  2 Peter now literally blaze with new light for me personally in view of the life lived by the apostate Geftakys. I consider myself duly warned...
Verne

I agree with you. As you said in another post, people are thinking: Could the same thing happen to me?

How can we prevent the same thing from happening in our lives, or for that matter, in anyone else's? What events led to this happening in the first place? Will we be deceived again by someone else and how can we prevent it?

After all the "other preachers" bashing done by Porgie, I am still baffled that he can justify his own behavior to the point that he answers to no one. How could he have swindled so much money for such a long time? "Kristen"s story is not the first time that I heard that someone "reminded him of Betty when she was young".

Only a seared conscience could continue that kind of lifestyle for as long as Porge did, or, like you said, a case of genuine insanity.

And you're right. He's now an example to learn from.

[vernecarty]

I agree with you. As you said in another post, people are thinking: Could the same thing happen to me?

How can we prevent the same thing from happening in our lives, or for that matter, in anyone else's? What events led to this happening in the first place? Will we be deceived again by someone else and how can we prevent it?

If I am sometimes given to excess in my portrayal of Geftakys and his era, I can plainly and honestly state before God and men that the above considerations are my sole motivation

After all the "other preachers" bashing done by Porgie, I am still baffled that he can justify his own behavior to the point that he answers to no one. How could he have swindled so much money for such a long time? "Kristen"s story is not the first time that I heard that someone "reminded him of Betty when she was young".

Only a seared conscience could continue that kind of lifestyle for as long as Porge did, or, like you said, a case of genuine insanity.

And you're right. He's now an example to learn from.

Some have inquired about the reasons I go on about this. It is clear that I consider what George did to be far more heinous than do some of my brethren. I am particularly harsh with people who defend and make excuses for George and the assembly system because the same kind of perverse reasoning that was used to legitimize this man, and dissuade people of conscience from taking a stand against him, is now being used in the aftermath to mitigate the seriousness of what happened, and to equate moral outrage at this with a lack of Christian charity. Talk about seared consciences!
Moral turpetude of this sort in people claiming religion is particularly damaging.
The greatest trouble of soul I have ever known personally, has been to look into the eyes of someone who feels that they have been betrayed by someone they trusted in spiritual leadership. It is an unspeakable agony that I would wish on no one.
I agree that there were many signs of George's moral corruption that should have been recognized by his peers, but then of course being an apostle he did not have any now did he?
I shall never again serve in any position of spiritual responsibility with men I do not admire in Christ. Never again!
We sometimes labor under the mistaken notion that God somehow needs our contribution.
He does not.
Verne

[M2]

I agree with you. As you said in another post, people are thinking: Could the same thing happen to me?

How can we prevent the same thing from happening in our lives, or for that matter, in anyone else's? What events led to this happening in the first place? Will we be deceived again by someone else and how can we prevent it?

After all the "other preachers" bashing done by Porgie, I am still baffled that he can justify his own behavior to the point that he answers to no one. How could he have swindled so much money for such a long time? "Kristen"s story is not the first time that I heard that someone "reminded him of Betty when she was young".

Only a seared conscience could continue that kind of lifestyle for as long as Porge did, or, like you said, a case of genuine insanity.

And you're right. He's now an example to learn from.

We have learned a few things from our involvement.
-  God did not fail to warn and get us out of state of deception.
-  Some of us aided and furthered the system by our own natural inclinations, and possibly needed to experience it, if only to discover that we want nothing of it.
-  It gives me a greater empathy for the wounded pilgrim, be is ex-Geftakysite or other.
-  I have a greater appreciation for the church I now attend.  Whereas I might have taken it for granted if I had simply attended it soon after getting saved.
-  This is a tragedy that should never have happened, especially for those whose faith has been so wounded by their experience.  We now have the ability to recognize the signs, and may it not happen again in any church that we attend.
-  Yes we could all be deceived again, but God is faithful.

How can we prevent it?
One safegaurd is to accept criticism prayerfully and with an open mind.  People tend to react to criticism and resort to self preservation and self justification and thus remain in the foggy state of deception.  On the other hand there are some critics who make statements like, "The sky is green", or "Geoge is the Lord's servant", or outrageous comments like that, to whom I do not give the time of day to.
Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?

Some people depend on their heritage to justify their stance, but that is not the true fruit of change and repentance.
Matt 3:7-10 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?  Therefore bring forth fruit in keeping with repentance; and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves,' We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you, that God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.  And the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire..."

...I shall never again serve in any position of spiritual responsibility with men I do not admire in Christ. Never again! ...

Some of us admired and aspired to be like some of these Geftakys-servants , if only for a season.

Marcia

[vernecarty]

I agree with you. As you said in another post, people are thinking: Could the same thing happen to me?

How can we prevent the same thing from happening in our lives, or for that matter, in anyone else's? What events led to this happening in the first place? Will we be deceived again by someone else and how can we prevent it?

After all the "other preachers" bashing done by Porgie, I am still baffled that he can justify his own behavior to the point that he answers to no one. How could he have swindled so much money for such a long time? "Kristen"s story is not the first time that I heard that someone "reminded him of Betty when she was young".

Only a seared conscience could continue that kind of lifestyle for as long as Porge did, or, like you said, a case of genuine insanity.

And you're right. He's now an example to learn from.

We have learned a few things from our involvement.
-  God did not fail to warn and get us out of state of deception.
-  Some of us aided and furthered the system by our own natural inclinations, and possibly needed to experience it, if only to discover that we want nothing of it.
-  It gives me a greater empathy for the wounded pilgrim, be is ex-Geftakysite or other.
-  I have a greater appreciation for the church I now attend.  Whereas I might have taken it for granted if I had simply attended it soon after getting saved.
-  This is a tragedy that should never have happened, especially for those whose faith has been so wounded by their experience.  We now have the ability to recognize the signs, and may it not happen again in any church that we attend.
-  Yes we could all be deceived again, but God is faithful.

How can we prevent it?
One safegaurd is to accept criticism prayerfully and with an open mind.  People tend to react to criticism and resort to self preservation and self justification and thus remain in the foggy state of deception.  On the other hand there are some critics who make statements like, "The sky is green", or "Geoge is the Lord's servant", or outrageous comments like that, to whom I do not give the time of day to.
Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?

Some people depend on their heritage to justify their stance, but that is not the true fruit of change and repentance.
Matt 3:7-10 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?  Therefore bring forth fruit in keeping with repentance; and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves,' We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you, that God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.  And the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire..."

Great post!

...I shall never again serve in any position of spiritual responsibility with men I do not admire in Christ. Never again!

Some of us admired and aspired to be like some of these Geftakys-servants , if only for a season.

Marcia

My point exactly Marcia. There was no crime in getting involved with the assemblies. The crime was in tolerating what went on there. I made the mistake of staying in a situation that clearly failed to meet the Biblical standard. I had all kinds of justification.
The Lord, just like with the assemblies, had to use stern measures to stir me to faithfulness. I am grateful for His correction.
Every man of God will ultimately face the fateful question:

"Am I serving God, or man?"

This is what ultimately separates the men from the boys when it comes to spiritual things in my opinion. When you have clear basis to question the integrity of men and women in spiritual authority and remain in that situation, you aid and abet their transgression, pure and simple.


Whether it has to do with our own example, or that of others, when we no longer qualify, we should have the grace to step aside. I will admit there was a brief period when I also admired Geftakys. I really did not know him, and I clearly lacked discernment.
Some people who knew him very well, continued to enable him.
That was the problem.
Verne