Why Leaders Are Responsible

[vernecarty]

Several of you have posed the question:
Why the obsession with laying culpability for the events in the assemblies so firmly at the feet of the leadership?
I will tell you whence the conviction.
I lay the blame for what happened to that flock squarely on the shoulders of the leadership because that is exactly where Scripture places it.
It is the God-given responsibility of elders in the local church to protect the flock from wolves, and particulalry from wolves in sheep's clothing. If I am ravaged by a wolf in the local church, I have no argument with the wolf-that is his job-I have a huge argument with the elders. I would want to know from them:
"Why didn't you protect me?"
I know some will say that the sheep are responsible for their own decisions. The Bible disagrees with you when it comes to wolves. There is no more solemn warning to spiritual leaders than the charge given by the apostle Paul to the Ephesian elders at Miletus:

For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Acts 20:29-30

The reaction of the leadership to the crisis that engulfed the assemblies is most instructive. At the height of the maelstrom, one such individual in St. Louis simply had a letter of resignation read in his absence and advised the flock that he did not wish to be contacted. In view of the frightful allegations made against the standard bearer of the ministry they were associated with, the vast majority of them slunk away in silence.
No expressions of regret.
No provision for future shepherding of the flock.
No acknowldgement and renouncing of the heinous sins that were brought to light.
There were some exceptions. I found myself in the difficult position of having to retract statments made about one such leader in the Midwest. I was challenged on the BB to call him up and get my own answers to the questions I was asking. I am rarely willing to walk away from a challenge as regards matters of integrity. I requested a phone number and got deluged with responses. I dutifully made that call and was truly taken aback. Not only was there no proferring of lame excuses and denials, this well-known and widely respected brother was willing to receive entreaty about a number of issues I insisted needed to be made right. The follow-up was immediate and whole-hearted. This individual, while we still disagree about much, has nothing but my utmost respect and admiration. There were others who acted with integrity, including some here in Champaign, and others like Kirk Cesaretti and Danny Edwards.
Sadly, this has been by far the exception. The conduct of a man like George Gefatkys demanded the loud and unequivocal rebuke of all those associated with him, particularly those in leadership. Fullerton's letter of excommunication was a feeble gesture at best. This wicked man used a stewardship meant to be a covering for God's people to thoroughly corrupt the heritage of God.
There is no human court that will dispense adequate sanction for misdeeds that can only properly be considered as spiritual high treason. His fate will rest with the Almighty Himself:

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1 Cor. 3:17

Those of you formerly in leadership who have not settled accounts...what are you waiting for?
If George Geftakys were to repent and make amends tomorrow I would have to retract some of what I have posted on this BB. You men however, will find no release from the burden of responsibility you bear for the sad events that ocurred on your watch. Make it right.
Verne

[Matt]

Verne,
How in the world is it the leading brothers faults though? You said that the rest of us weren't protected. How could the leading brothers protect us from anything - they're just men. How could they protect you from George Geftakys? Think about it - how many times a year did he come to your assembly? 2, 3 at the most - and you're out in the midwest too, so probably less often.

People are looking for somebody to blame, and apparently leading brothers are the easiest target. The leading brothers cared for you more than GG did. Why do we so quickly forget all that LB's did for us? How would you expect them to react after they selflessly serve the saints and then suddenly everyone points fingers at them and says how horribly they were treated by the LB's? Do you think they are going to jump up and say "here i am, and here's my wife, and here's my children, go ahead and throw rocks and mud at us!". They have a duty to their family and they have a duty to protect their children from unwarranted wrath at the hands of disgruntled ex-assemblyites. The blame goes on George G. - not on leading brothers, sir.
- Matt

[Matt]

Verne,
How did the leading brothers "destroy and scatter" the sheep though? Seriously, sir - how? This passage is very precise when it comes to GG (adulterers and all), but how can this passage be applied to leading brothers?
- matt

[Bluejay]

Verne,
How in the world is it the leading brothers faults though? You said that the rest of us weren't protected. How could the leading brothers protect us from anything - they're just men. How could they protect you from George Geftakys? Think about it - how many times a year did he come to your assembly? 2, 3 at the most - and you're out in the midwest too, so probably less often.

People are looking for somebody to blame, and apparently leading brothers are the easiest target. The leading brothers cared for you more than GG did. Why do we so quickly forget all that LB's did for us? How would you expect them to react after they selflessly serve the saints and then suddenly everyone points fingers at them and says how horribly they were treated by the LB's? Do you think they are going to jump up and say "here i am, and here's my wife, and here's my children, go ahead and throw rocks and mud at us!". They have a duty to their family and they have a duty to protect their children from unwarranted wrath at the hands of disgruntled ex-assemblyites. The blame goes on George G. - not on leading brothers, sir.
- Matt

Matt,

Are the leading brothers paying you off with excess cash from the Geftakys slush fund???  You've became their main spokesperson.

Bottom line is this, any leading brothers who knew  or chose not to know of the terrible sins that plagued the Geftakys ministry are scum of the earth.  Not coming to the defense of women who were being beaten or abused for fear of the wrath of Brother George is so weak.

End of story.

[Matt]

Matt,

Are the leading brothers paying you off with excess cash from the Geftakys slush fund???  You've became their main spokesperson.

Bottom line is this, any leading brothers who knew  or chose not to know of the terrible sins that plagued the Geftakys ministry are scum of the earth.  Not coming to the defense of women who were being beaten or abused for fear of the wrath of Brother George is so weak.

End of story.

I'm not saying that all leading brothers are good. No, sir - that's ridiculous. I'm saying that they are not all "scum of the Earth" to use your phrase. I'm also saying that I can understand very much why they want to separate themselves from the assembly. Regarding the St. Louis incident that Verne brought up, how in the world would they know about the Geftakys crimes? They're 1,000+ miles away! And again, many people have selfishly and irresponsibly pinned blame on the same leading brothers who loved them and served them for years - why would the LB's want to expose their families to undue wrath?
- Matt
P.S. Tim G, this post will cost you 15$, sir.

[Bluejay]

Matt,

Are the leading brothers paying you off with excess cash from the Geftakys slush fund???  You've became their main spokesperson.

Bottom line is this, any leading brothers who knew  or chose not to know of the terrible sins that plagued the Geftakys ministry are scum of the earth.  Not coming to the defense of women who were being beaten or abused for fear of the wrath of Brother George is so weak.

End of story.

I'm not saying that all leading brothers are good. No, sir - that's ridiculous. I'm saying that they are not all "scum of the Earth" to use your phrase. I'm also saying that I can understand very much why they want to separate themselves from the assembly. Regarding the St. Louis incident that Verne brought up, how in the world would they know about the Geftakys crimes? They're 1,000+ miles away! And again, many people have selfishly and irresponsibly pinned blame on the same leading brothers who loved them and served them for years - why would the LB's want to expose their families to undue wrath?
- Matt
P.S. Tim G, this post will cost you 15$, sir.

Matt...I think we have some serious communication issues.  "Scum of the earth" was made in reference to the leading brothers who knew of the heinous crimes taking place and did nothing to stop it.

Believe me...There were people in St. Louis knew what was going on....

$15...you are getting off way to cheap!!!

[Matt]

Verne and Bluejay,
How can you be so sure the leading brothers knew about everything? Do you think George G brought up his sin regularly at these meetings? *Maybe* the leading brothers in and around Fullerton knew the extent - but how could the midwest/east coast/canadian/international assemblies know? They were not here (in CA) to see anything and why would they believe anything at the time said against George G if they hadn't see it themselves? Why would they believe it was anything more than gossip, slander, or hearsay? Yes hindsight is a nice thing, but it comes too late.

1 Cor 3:10-15
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The Lord burns away all our iniquity and impurities. What is left - the good things, the Godly things, the Holy things, the things we did to further the Kingdom - those are what He remembers. So why are so many saints "burning away" from their minds all the acts of love of the leading brothers. They are doing the exact opposite of the Lord! They are only looking at the wrongdoings. Take for example that person who emailed us about the leading brothers in STL. These leading brothers did A LOT to serve this brother and he shamelessly sends out that email slapping them in the face. Is that Christ-like? We as saints also have a "God-given" responsibilty to be thankful to the leading brothers who served us for years. Lord bless.
- Matt

Eph 1:15-16
Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,  

Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;  

[MGov]

Matt,

Are the leading brothers paying you off with excess cash from the Geftakys slush fund???  You've became their main spokesperson.

Bottom line is this, any leading brothers who knew  or chose not to know of the terrible sins that plagued the Geftakys ministry are scum of the earth.  Not coming to the defense of women who were being beaten or abused for fear of the wrath of Brother George is so weak.

End of story.

The first paragraph is a personal attack at Matt, and is unnecessary.  It does not encourage open communication.

With regards to the second paragraph, I personally know of 2 LBs who 'stood up' to GG on various issues.  Those that didn't need to repent or else God will expose their sin eventually.  My husband (not a LB) also did not 'go with the flow' so...  Other LBs were just not part of it all and were genuine shepherds.

Verne and Bluejay,
How can you be so sure the leading brothers knew about everything? Do you think George G brought up his sin regularly at these meetings? *Maybe* the leading brothers in and around Fullerton knew the extent - but how could the midwest/east coast/canadian/international assemblies know? They were not here (in CA) to see anything and why would they believe anything at the time said against George G if they hadn't see it themselves? Why would they believe it was anything more than gossip, slander, or hearsay? Yes hindsight is a nice thing, but it comes too late.

I agree with you that all the LBs did not know about everything.  Some knew about DGs issue and did not do anything about it.  But I doubt that any knew of GGs adultery (I could be wrong on this).   It was a total surprise to us.

M

[Matt]

O.K. Matt, granted they may not have known everything, but believe me, they knew enough. I know quite a a number of people who were high in the ranks of leadership in this ministry and some who were there for a very long time. Believe me Matt, they knew enough...The system could not have survived without their complicity, not for the span of one pre-prayer....there is also the little matter of discernment, a spiritual gift God  would absolutely not deny any gathering of His people which suggests that those who knew full well what was going on chose to ignore it.  All those workers and leading brothers and elders yet George in gross sin and compromise for so many years...think of it Matt...it is indeed a shameful legacy

Verne

The system could not have survived without their complicity? No, sir - true perhaps in theory, but not practice. In practice (aka reality), the system could not survive when GG's sin was made to known to everyone (including the leading brothers). That's why so many assemblies disbanded and so many saints left fellowship. Again, how could the saints in the midwest/east coast/canada/etc. know what was going in Cali? They weren't here to witness anything firsthand. A lot of the saints in San Diego had absolutely no idea what was going 2 hrs north of us, how could the saints even further away know? How, Verne? Again, GG and David G's sins were not the topic of leading brothers meetings or of seminars or of anything. What reasons did they have to believe that GG was sinning in those respects...if they were told anything, how could they believe it to be more than just a slanderous rumor? And MGov is right, leading brothers did stand up to GG, even the website will tell you that. So how are the leading brothers responsible for anything? They need our prayers and we need to be grateful for the many ways they loved and served us for so long.
- Matt

[Oscar]

Matt,

Regarding your comments that "no one knew".  

"A lot of the saints in San Diego had absolutely no idea what was going 2 hrs north of us, how could the saints even further away know? How, Verne? Again, GG and David G's sins were not the topic of leading brothers meetings or of seminars or of anything".

I can testify that the leading brothers in Fullerton, (which of course were also the primary workers) knew quite a bit about David as far back as 18 years ago.

1. We knew that GG protected David and excused his conduct.  I remember the night that Mark M. told GG that he had seen David standing on a corner with his non-Christian friends smoking a cigarrette.  GG launched into a defense of David based on his childhood problems with diabetes.

2. "We" means Myself, Mark M., Dan Notti, Tim G., Dennis Patrick, Steve Irons, Albert Viramontes, Jim Hayman, MAYBE Keith Walker-I'm not sure when he joined the LB's.

3. We knew that David was a bum...he could buy a house, have a car hobby, support a family, travel, have expensive alterations done on his house, and so on.  We also knew he hadn't had a job in years.  We may have been suckers for GG's flim flam, but we weren't so stupid that we couldn't figure out what was going on, that David was being supported with ministry funds.  We knew this LONG before he was recongized as a full timer.  WE TALKED ABOUT IT WHEN GG WASN'T THERE!

4. We knew David was a jerk.  He boasted of his strict requirements for the brothers in his house on the rare occassions when he attended worker's meetings in Fullerton.  "It may be all right to call in sick to your employer, but I tell my brothers that this is GOD'S work and that they must deny themselves and lay down their lives for their brethren".  

5. We now know that SOME knew about the physical abuse.  Believe me, that was NEVER mentioned in a leading brother's meeting or worker's meeting.  All understood the PRIME DIRECTIVE: "Thou shalt not touch a member of the royal family".

I first heard of the abuse in 1992 from a house painter that knew Judy's family. He said that David, "slapped Judy around."  That was 6 years after I had left the LB meetings, and 5 years after I left the assembly.  But if you read Judy's story, you know that several leading brothers and workers knew about it years ago.

So Matt, I can understand that the average "saint" didn't know much about what was going on, but just about ALL the leaders in the places where David and Judy lived knew.

Thomas Maddux

[BeckyW]

Thank you O plethora of guests visiting the BB for my sky-rocketing negative points. , This thread really hurts doesn't it? Oh well the truth often does...
Verne

Verne,
I don't know how the points thing works, in fact, I don't know if I have this quote thing right either,
BUT your message above reminded me of this quote from the"Direction for Workers" handbook, page 5, #19, of which we happen to have a copy.
"The worker's inheritance is dependent on a good attitude."
Perhaps they're just concerned for you??
 

[Matt]

Regarding your comments that "no one knew".  

I never said "no one knew," Mr. Maddux.  No, sir - that's ridiculous.

I can testify that the leading brothers in Fullerton, (which of course were also the primary workers) knew quite a bit about David as far back as 18 years ago.

Duh! I said that leading brothers in and around Fullerton surely knew about the sins of David and George Geftakys. Thanks for proving my point though. However, those leading brothers had firsthand, eye-witness knowledge of these sins. I'm speaking on behalf of the leading brothers who were not at Fullerton or San Luis Obispo. Again, these leading brothers would not have an opportunity to see these sins committed...so why are they responsible for them?

So Matt, I can understand that the average "saint" didn't know much about what was going on, but just about ALL the leaders in the places where David and Judy lived knew.

Thomas Maddux

And, sir I never said anything to the contrary. We cannot pin the sins of a few leading brothers onto all of the leading brothers. The Leading bros in San Diego had no idea...that is the only assembly I can speak about with some authority. But I can use logic...and if the assembly 2 hrs south of Fullerton did not know, how would the assemblies outside of California know? This thread was started by Verne with St. Louis as an example. I want you think about this carefully. How would the leading brothers of other assemblies (outside of Fullerton and SLO..and maybe Placentia because it's only 5 mins from Fullerton and used to be part of Fullerton) know what was going on? Think about this. Would the sins of david G and George G be made topics of leading brothers' meetings? Would they be the topic of seminars? Of course not. So how would the leading brothers in St. Louis, Nebraska, Canada, Providence, northern cali,etc, have any more information than the other saints at these assemblies? If they heard rumors from California, what evidence would they have to believe them as anything more than slanderous rumors? No, sir, you cannot blame all the leaders for what happened. You can point your finger at the leading brothers of the Fullerton and SLO assemblies for not saying anything, but you CANNOT casually go around and say that all leading brothers are responsible.
- Matt

[Matt]

Matt assuming you are right and even most of them knew nothing...why the strange silence? You are assuming that it was just knowledge of George's sin that forced the bretheren to act. I would submit that it was in fact widespread knowledge of the facts that ultimately destroyed George's ministry. It would have never happened without the website. Geftakys was a master of damage control. Do you think for one minute if this information had remained under the control of assembly leadership (including leading brothers in other places) we would have  had the same results? I think not. Leading brothers generally did exactly what George and Betty instructed them to do (except in those cases whrere their separate instructions were contradictory with the well-known resulting inter-necine warring camps). You are forgetting the clear evidence of that ministry's practice of covering up gross-misconduct. Beyond all this Matt, what about the expectation we should have of Godly men to be men of stature and discernment? Aren't you at all troubled by the fact that these events were going on in such a tightly knit  ministry and all these folk were  supposedly so blissfully ignorant? Where was their sense of smell?
Verne

Dear Verne,

How can you expect leading brothers to "smell" something that was thousands of miles away from them? And how can imply that the leading brothers have NOT been Godly men of "stature and discernment?" You keep saying they need to repent for "destroying" the sheep....but how, sir, did they destroy the sheep? This is all so ridiculous - this readiness of the saints to victimize themselves.

Saints, now for my sad story:

Oh, dear, since everybody kneeled at prayer meetings, I felt peer-pressured to kneel too. Now I have a sore knee...darn that assembly, who can I blame for that? I know! The leading brothers.

Oh my, one time I was exhorted because I said a cuss word. That hurt my feelings and now I'm in therapy. Who can I sue to pay for my therapy? I know! The leading brothers.

oh woes me, I was forced at gunpoint to attend every meeting and outreach of the assembly for the past 25 years. Who can I possibly seek to punish for my 25 yrs of enslavement? I know! The leading brothers.

oh me oh my, I was rebuked for allowing my child to scream and wail all through the Bible study. Unbelievably, this heartless assembly valued the message of the leading brother's preaching more than my baby's screaming. How can I get compensation for this form of "child abuse?" I know! Get the leading brothers to pay!

The fact of the matter is that the leading brothers and their families served you many times over. All the dinners they cooked for you, all the phone conversations they had, all the planning, all the comforting, all the organizing, all the loving, all the time they gave - all while trying to raise families of their own and maintaining full time jobs. The leading brothers didn't ask more of you than what they did for you. Now, saints, you turn around and bitterly accuse them for things they had no control over? Do you think that's the Lord encouraging you to blast those who loved you so much? That's the devil working in you. Beware of that. The Lord wants you to be grateful for those that served you. I know that this is a controversial post - but I'm ready. Bring it on!
- Matt

[MGov]

Dear Matt,

Looks like you had an ENOP (extended night of posting) last night.  It's good that you ask the questions, and state your opinions, because I know that it helps me to think about why I believe what I believe.
If I am 'reading' your posts correctly, you are saying that not all LBs were 'like the Pharisees'; some had a true sheperd's heart like the Lord Jesus; and we should therefore not lump them all in the same category.
You are also saying that some of us non-LB's might have been offended by some LB's some of the time, but since they are sinners like us we need to forgive and forget and not be bitter towards them.
The other question being posed is 'What about those who knew better and did not do anything about what they knew, if they were supposed to shepherd the flock?(I don't think you asked that question, but it has been posted on this BB).

I have to go now. and will continue this later.

Lord bless,
M

[Mark C.]

Dear Matt
  I also was a leading brother in an Assembly.  I would have had similar responses as the leading bros. in San Diego had toward you while a member.  I led a brothers house for most of my time in the Assembly (20 years) and couldn't bring myself around to direct the house in the authoritarian manner I was encouraged to.
  My heart's desire and goal in the Assembly was to serve Christ and to bless those in my care.  I also know there were others who had the same desire as mine.  
   When I challenge the Assembly as being an "evil system" or desire to hold leaders responsible it is not an attack on those leaders who were just as much victims as regular members were.
   There is a major distinction in the Assembly between "workers" who were leading bros. and just local leading bros.  I was asked to come into the workers mtg., but was reluctant to do so; I did not see a Biblical justification for such an oversight gathering.
  I still bear a responsibility for my passivity re. evil that was promoted by the GG system.  There were many silent protestors who closed their eyes to what was right before them, as they were decieved into thinking that raising objections was "divisive and satanic".  When I started to see and raise objections I was kicked out of my Assembly and cruelly treated.
  I don't think anyone here has suggested that we were victimized by those leaders who sincerely followed Christ and encouraged His people to follow the Lord.  It was the "organizational oriented" leaders who demanded loyalty to GG and his heavenly vision/holy calling ministry that did great harm to individuals.  
   Please read the testimony of Kevin Welsh and notice how the intense group centered focus and false merit theology led to a failed toxic faith in his life.  The correct and healthy emphasis leads us into an individual relationship with Christ and a grace based life that can survive without the group.
  Another good question that Verne brought up was what the leaders did at the disbanding of the Assembly.  If they were so concerned about their flock, what attempts did they make to follow-up with former members by inquiring of their needs?  In the Valley the main leader (Tim McCarthy) just walked out and refused to return phone calls from former members.  He and his wife have been blaming a brother for the collaspe of the Assembly there because they called for answers re. the position of the leading bros. re. GG.  These leaders refuse to even entertain the idea that God was judging the group methods of elitism and abuse.
   It would seem that these actions might describe those who were GG's men and had little real care for members and their lives with Christ.  Their main burden was to defend the system and their position in that system.  Now, these individuals are also victims as they believed that loyalty to GG was the same thing as loyalty to Christ.
   It is not unfair to ask these individuals how they view things now, as those who followed them deserve at least an explanation.  
                                   God Bless,  Mark