Why Leaders Are Responsible

[Mark C.]

Excellent Points One in All!!
  To follow-up on Brent's mention of a SLO LB and the need to warn churches where these folks may land:
   There were 2 LB's from the Valley and another Bro. who have been attending a small church there.  The Pastor is young, and just out of seminary, and I was concerned that these LB's still were following GG's "vision."
  I emailed a warning to the pastor, with a description of the Assembly, why it fell to pieces, and the possible danger these folks might be to the sheep there.
   The pastor never responded to me (unwise) and then showed the email to these Bros. (a further lack of wisdom)!  I guess he didn't tell them who wrote it as they jumped on Eric Buchman for it (sorry Eric, I signed my name not yours ).
    Anyway, I warned the Pastor that these individuals had been under false teaching and involved in a cult like group that abused it's members.  And furthermore, they still maintain their innocence in all of this and would be capable of trying to syphon off members into a "bible study."  I told him I hoped I was wrong, but it would be a good idea to keep an eye on them.
  If we are aware of these kind of situations it is not an unkind or retalitory action on our part to advise Pastors.  If one of the L.B.'s from that church in the Valley is reading this now please do not send any hate mail to Eric and instead direct it to me.  Also, if you need a further explanation I would be happy to talk with you about this.
                                                     God Bless,  Mark

[Sebastian Andrew]

Greetings everyone:

In my locale I recently read in the newspaper under religious news that a certain ex-LB (he was there to the end until the assembly here disbanded)  was going to address an independent bible church as a former missionary to Providence, RI. I too wondered how much of his background he revealed to these people to whom he preached. It seems to me that some of these LB's think of themselves still pretty highly. While I want to see EVERYONE recovered, it may be a good idea, as Mark has said, to warn others if necessary. Years ago I warned a faculty member at a local comm. college and at the local university with what little info was out there at the time. At most places a faculty member is required in order to have the right to be a student organization. At the university the assembly study was stopped as a result of that effort. The comm. college outreach may have stopped bec. the assembly didn't have anyone there anymore. Later, I did some long-distance internet searches using key assembly phrases and warned other Christian organizations such as IV and CCC, etc., about the assembly and their recruiting- often for brevity's sake comparing them to the International Church of Christ (Boston Movement). At one university, I was unable to get through to the faculty sponsor (who was also a Campus Crusade worker), and had to go to their regional director for any action to be taken. He later thanked me for pursuing it with him. In that particular case I believe that the CCC worker was close to becoming an assembly member, judging by how defensive she became of them. Other efforts were sometimes ignored. A couple of times I became the issue and was accused by non-assembly people as being judgemental,etc. I called a church in Champaign, IL. right before the Memorial Day MW Seminar, and lo and behold the pastor at that church knew about the assembly and George Geftakys. I sent him the info that I had gathered (about 10-11 years ago) but he probably wasn't too convinced then that I was anything more than a disgruntled former member. I have heard from a member of that church thay are well aware the assembly now bec. of his input.
   There is now a lot of info out there. The assembly is really darker than we even imagined. It really needs to be stopped.

[M2]

To leave a place that has basically ruled your life for years takes a lot of bravery because it means beginning a new life free of bondage.  Bondage can be comfortable because you don't have to think--others will tell you what is right, true, how you should act and what you should believe.  What a sad way to live.  The "light" of the mind in bondage is darkness.  It is also hard to give up old habits that come from deeply engrained beliefs.  It is also difficult for leaders to give up the power and prestige they once had AND it is even more difficult for people who are so accustomed to be lead to suddenly start thinking and acting for themselves.

Basically, leaders should only be held partially responsible for the evils in the old Assembly because those in committed fellowship yielded their wills over to the leadership who were following a system of right and wrong imposed from Fullerton/the worker's meeting.  To admit that and leave the Assembly is to be brave, honest and, at the end of the day, free of bondage.

We watched a Star Trek- Voyager episode 'The Gift' where 7 of 9 is being released from her Borg contraptions. She has a difficult time dealing with not hearing the voice of the collective, and being an individual human being in a community of human beings.  Reminded me of those who prefer to stay in their 'comfort zones' ie bondage, rather than being 'set free' to that which is unfamiliar to them.

Marcia

[jackhutchinson]

Brent,

When you find out what the church leaders say about the former LB who is discipling that young man without mentioning his past in the assembly, could you let us all know what happened?

Thanks,
Jack

[James]

Brent,

When you find out what the church leaders say about the former LB who is discipling that young man without mentioning his past in the assembly, could you let us all know what happened?

Thanks,
Jack

Should that not be a requirement for ALL former menbers before they take positions in the church they attend?

[editor]

Brent,

When you find out what the church leaders say about the former LB who is discipling that young man without mentioning his past in the assembly, could you let us all know what happened?

Thanks,
Jack

Should that not be a requirement for ALL former menbers before they take positions in the church they attend?

All the leaders, from every "right-on" church in SLO is well aware of the "saints," and the difficulties that many of the ex-LB's face.  None of these people are going to be leaders in any church in this area.  The problem is that this person is "discipling" a 21 year old, hyper-zealous male, and is doing so without mentioning it to anyone.  In other words, he is not accountable to anyone.

Furthermore, he didn't tell this potential disciple about his very recent past, which casts serious doubt on his ability to disciple anyone.  He is to be confronted by 2 pastors ASAP.  I may not post details here, for obvious reasons.

Brent

[M2]

Leaders were directly or indirectly appointed by GG. I do not recognize them as valid leaders because the assembly is a false religion. They are brothers among brothers and should not hold position of leadership even now. They were trained by GG and faithfully implemented his direction. There are always a few exceptions to the rule.

Those who knew better and did not warn the saints - shame on them.  They are now very proud of the fact that they did not succumb to GG 100%. - this is not a fruit of repentance.

A particular LB does not even acknowledge his faithfulnees to GG's system. Yet most who have left will say otherwise.

When asked about 'false teaching' they basically shrugged their shoulders and said 'Oh well, we just disagreed with GG/TG/whoever'.
They failed to protect the sheep from 'false teaching' by not taking a stand for us 'dumb sheep' who were actually deceived by the 'false teaching' and did not have their 'discernment' in order to just shrug it off.

I AM SPEAKING OF RECENTS EVENTS, EVEN AS RECENT AS LESS THAN A MONTH AGO.

THESE LEADERS AND OTHERS WHO STAND WITH THEM ARE FULLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PART THEY PLAY IN THE SYSTEM.

MAT 7:15 ¶ "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
MAT 7:16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they?
MAT 7:17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
MAT 7:18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
MAT 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
MAT 7:20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
MAT 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.
MAT 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
MAT 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

[M2]

I was reading Acts 3 where the lame man is healed outside the temple. It is interesting that Peter says, "And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also."(Ac 3:17)  Then he proceeds to present the evidence such that they need not remain ignorant. The people heard the message. the leaders were greatly disturbed and arrested Peter and John and warned them to speak no more... etc.

Sound familiar?

Marcia

I received two email replies to my post quoted above. Both replies came from ex-assembly members from the same mid-West assembly.

Reply # 1:
Your quote of Acts 3 is very appropriate.

Reply # 2:
Email Subject: quoth the raven
Quote:

"The people heard the message. the leaders were greatly disturbed and arrested Peter and John and warned them to speak no more... etc.   Sound familiar?"

Come to think of it, that does sound familiar!!  Let's see...a while ago, ?? and I tried to get you people to think reasonably and stop with the nonsensical arguments.  We tried to show people that bitterness was wrong, that holding on to your anger or "letting it out" is not godly, but totally psychological, that many of you here are using this bulletin board to meet your needs instead of Christ, that it is not doesn't make sense to blame your problems on the assembly, that the midwest had many good assemblies unlike California, that most of you don't know what you're
talking about when it comes to "legalism" and "authoritarianism", and lastly, that YOU DO NOT GAIN A FULL INHERITANCE WHEN YOU ARE SAVED.  The Bible clearly shows differently.  And do you know what happened, Madame?

Well, ?? got kicked off and we both got banned as well as ??.
Hmm...we got "excommunicated" by the anti-assemblyites!!!  Well, well, well.  Now isn't this fun!


I post reply # 2 on behalf of the brother that got 'excommunicated' from the BB and therefore is not allowed to post on the BB, and had to email me instead. Highlights by Marcia M.  I guess it is not OK to let out you anger on the BB, but it OK to do so in an email!

MM

[jackhutchinson]

I’ve heard there are leaders that not only claim that they never engaged in manipulation, etc., but that they followed God instead of George.  Some of these same LB’s are still leaders in their existing assemblies.  Even the sheep still think they are fit to be leaders.  Here’s my take on those who were leaders in GG’s assembly system.  Even in the case of nice, easy-going, mild mannered LB’s, I do not believe they should be leaders anytime soon.  Every LB falls into one of the following categories:

1)  They claim that they did not know that GG and his assembly system were corrupt, so they were just sincerely serving God in their local assembly.

My conclusion:  Shepherds are supposed to protect God’s sheep from wolves.  If they could not recognize a wolf like George, then they are admitting they have no discernment as shepherds.  This is a classic case of the blind leading the blind.  Their long-standing spiritual blindness disqualifies them from being a shepherd over God’s sheep.  They need to be taught by OTHERS to gain their sight before they can lead God’s people again.

“And He spoke a parable to them: ‘A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he?  Will they not both fall into a pit?’”  Luke 6:39


2)  They claim that they did see problems with GG and his assembly system and that they addressed those issues privately through personal contact and letters.  They may even express regret over the fact that they didn’t do more.

My conclusion:  Shepherds are supposed to act self-sacrificiallly to protect God’s sheep from wolves.  They obviously realized at some point that GG was not going to change his ways.  They then CHOSE to remain quiet and maintain their positions as leaders due to their fear of the consequences of rocking the boat.  Their long-standing cowardice disqualifies them from being shepherds over God’s sheep.

“Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.”  John 12:41-42


3)  They knew very well GG and his assembly system were corrupt, but out of ambition they went along with the program.  These men love having young men and women under their authority and will do anything to maintain their position.

My conclusion:  Corrupt men that have authority over God’s sheep are not shepherds, but wolves.

“I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.”  Acts 20:29-30


4)  They saw that GG and his system were corrupt, and eventually left when they saw that their efforts to reform the man and his system were doomed to fail.

My conclusion:  These are men who have repented of their blindness, cowardice and/or corruption, and as a result, left their positions of power as leaders (or were booted from the system).  These are men like Steve Irons, Jim McCumber, Gerald Matthias, Paul Boyer, Kirk Cesaretti, among others.  From what I know about these men they are either not seeking positions of leadership or they are leaders again only after having been taught by others for awhile.  They have clearly been zealous in their repentance.  I think that they are the only leaders who can truly say that they followed God instead of George, and yet, they would be the last people to make that claim.

"For behold what earnestness this very thing, this godly sorrow, has produced in you: what vindication of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what avenging of wrong!  In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in the matter."  2Cor 7:11

People in existing assemblies would be much better off at a healthy church in their community.  No church is perfect, but at least at other churches one can discuss problems without being labeled as a troublemaker.  To remain in existing assemblies is to CHOOSE to be under the authority of leaders that are either blind, cowardly or corrupt (or all three).

Jack

[Mark Kisla]

Jack,
I agree with you 100%.
These men accepted the position of leadership. The LBs & workers I encountered had no problem with 'correcting the sheep' with zeal. When it came to correcting themselves by correcting their leaders George & Betty, where was the zeal ? Were they afraid to face the truth because they would lose their position ? If that's true, then they loved their position more than the truth.

Mark

[Mark Kisla]

I was reading Acts 3 where the lame man is healed outside the temple. It is interesting that Peter says, "And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also."(Ac 3:17)  Then he proceeds to present the evidence such that they need not remain ignorant. The people heard the message. the leaders were greatly disturbed and arrested Peter and John and warned them to speak no more... etc.

Sound familiar?

Marcia

I received two email replies to my post quoted above. Both replies came from ex-assembly members from the same mid-West assembly.

Reply # 1:
Your quote of Acts 3 is very appropriate.

Reply # 2:
Email Subject: quoth the raven
Quote:

"The people heard the message. the leaders were greatly disturbed and arrested Peter and John and warned them to speak no more... etc.   Sound familiar?"

Come to think of it, that does sound familiar!!  Let's see...a while ago, ?? and I tried to get you people to think reasonably and stop with the nonsensical arguments.  We tried to show people that bitterness was wrong, that holding on to your anger or "letting it out" is not godly, but totally psychological, that many of you here are using this bulletin board to meet your needs instead of Christ, that it is not doesn't make sense to blame your problems on the assembly, that the midwest had many good assemblies unlike California, that most of you don't know what you're
talking about when it comes to "legalism" and "authoritarianism", and lastly, that YOU DO NOT GAIN A FULL INHERITANCE WHEN YOU ARE SAVED.  The Bible clearly shows differently.  And do you know what happened, Madame?

Well, ?? got kicked off and we both got banned as well as ??.
Hmm...we got "excommunicated" by the anti-assemblyites!!!  Well, well, well.  Now isn't this fun!


I post reply # 2 on behalf of the brother that got 'excommunicated' from the BB and therefore is not allowed to post on the BB, and had to email me instead. Highlights by Marcia M.  I guess it is not OK to let out you anger on the BB, but it OK to do so in an email!

MM

MM,
 Reply #2 is not surprising at all.
To hammer on, belittle, use whatever method necessary to stop the sheep from "working out your own salvation" of course all the while ignoring the doctrinal errors and methods of leadership that were taught by George Geftakys.
The doctrinal errors and failures of leadership will never be discussed by this individual with the same zeal he has in analyzing this BB. This is how he has been programmed.

Mark

[editor]

Brother #2's  (funny title)  email is a study in blindness, bad judgement and hypocrisy.

The difference between the Assembly excommunicating someone, where the person gets no chance to talk, and where they are silenced is not to be compared with the patience shown to this person on this BB.

In the former instance, people were excommunicated by an adulterous blowhard for telling the truth!

In the latter, people were banned for being rude, abusive and obnoxious, and this only after thouroughly proving their character with their own, unedited words.  Funny, #2 here started threads on this very BB, and his words of "trooth" are still there for everyone to see.  

#2, thanks for the clear, concise reminder of why you can't post here anymore.  You should thank Marcia for putting your un-edited email on here for you.  Keep it up!  It really helps.

Brent  (sparky on the other board)

[M2]

I’ve heard there are leaders that not only claim that they never engaged in manipulation, etc., but that they followed God instead of George.  Some of these same LB’s are still leaders in their existing assemblies.  Even the sheep still think they are fit to be leaders.  Here’s my take on those who were leaders in GG’s assembly system.  Even in the case of nice, easy-going, mild mannered LB’s, I do not believe they should be leaders anytime soon.
...

Jack and others,

There was one scenario presented to me. I am interested in your perspectives:

This lays out Jack's position clearly. His categories leave no room for a sincere leading brother remaining in an assembly. He did not include a category where the brothers were aware and resisting and the sheep were protected. In Ottawa, we tend to think that distance (i.e. less influence) protected us from much of the trouble. Many of the brothers say they have been cautious about George since some event or something he said raised a warning flag. Others have had trouble with George; when they raised issues and got a bad reaction. One could make a case for an individual leaving or an assembly dissociating itself from George. Some may have been thinking about this but no one did it.

Marcia

PS. The person who presented the perspective above is not a LB, and has been an 'honest inquirer' and therefore merits that he/she be treated as such.
MM

[jackhutchinson]

Marcia,

Good point, and I knew that would come up.  LB's who make this claim are really in category #2.  Here’s why:

They claim they saw that George and his assembly system were corrupt and protected their local assemblies from the wolf.  This is easy to claim, but difficult (if not impossible) to prove.  Here are some questions to ask those LB’s who make this claim.

    a)  If you saw that GG was a wolf (and he would not repent of the things you saw), then why didn’t you PUBLICLY and specifically warn the sheep about what was wrong with him and his system?  The poor sheep only recently found out GG was a wolf.  If you had done your job they would have known long ago that GG was a wolf.  Others did make PUBLIC warnings, and they weren't even leaders (they also left or were given the boot).  No doubt you PUBLICLY warned the sheep about those who were thought by the leadership to be wolves.  Why not warn them about a wolf that was purported to be a great, godly leader?

     b)  If you saw that GG and his system were corrupt, then why did you stay in the system?  I know you were part of the system.  We only prayed for GG’s ministry (with VERY few exceptions).  We prayed for the Midwest, Canada and the East Coast all the time.  If you had PUBLICLY and faithfully protected the sheep from the wolf we would have all been told that you had lost your ‘heavenly vision’ (George’s term for loyalty to him and his assembly system).  This was done whenever a LB was bucking the system.  We would be asked to pray for ‘unity in the leadership’ (another term for loyalty to GG and his assembly system).

     c)  If you protected the sheep from the wolf, then why did you wait until GG was excommunicated (ie when it was safe) to stop doing the following things?

Attending his seminars
Attending his workers’ conferences in Colorado every year
Attending his workers’ meetings every other week held by those who answered to him (or Betty)
Selling his books on your booktable
Listening to and watching his taped seminars
Allowing him to preach in your gatherings
Allowing his itinerant preachers to preach in your gatherings
Allowing his MTT's to ‘help’ your gatherings
Sending ANY money to Fullerton
Reading GG's Torch and Testimony magazines

By the way, these are things that GG himself mentioned at his last seminar.  He said that they facilitated the maintainence of his 'heavenly vision'.  If you did these things then distance did not protect the sheep from his influence in any meaningful way.

My conclusion:  There is only one answer to any of these questions - fear of the consequences of making a PUBLIC stand against George.  Again, this is really just the same category as #2.  This is not a case of a momentary lapse in judgment, but of long-standing cowardice.  Anyone that stays in an existing assembly is CHOOSING to be under the guidance of leaders who have exhibited a long-standing refusal to PUBLICLY protect the sheep.  Is this really what the sheep want?  I hope not.

Jack

[Heide]

I'm not really sure where to start on this but....

Think of the GG ministry as a business. You have GG who is evil and corrupt. He can't hire men who will stand up to him. He hires the youthful, the young and in school. The ones he can manipulate. In the business world a corrupt boss cannot hire honest men, his business will never last. We all know that fruit doesn't fall far from the tree, look at DG and TG. The elders and leading brothers will all have characteristics that can be used. And yes, this was a business for GG. A business to make money.

The leaders who stayed and are still perpetuating the ministry are most accountable. They have heard and read about George being excommunicated, however, they still welcome him with open arms. Most of those sheep in SF and Sacramento don't know about the excommunication letter. It is men like Scott Testa and Dan Mattsson-Boze who have the most to be worried about. They have led the sheep even further astray. Men like Jim McAllister who really are holding the sheep hostage. The people still involved with each assembly that know the truth and still stay. They are accountable for their actions as well as the leaders.

Heide