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« Reply #195 on: August 31, 2003, 09:23:53 am » |
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I hope it's OK for sisters to post on this thread. I know Brent said that some of us were 'manly', but I do not feel that manly yet.  So I will change the trend of this thread. Most LBs/ex-LBs were trained by GG, directly or indirectly, so I do not 'blame' them for not being shepherds as they ought to have been. The did care for the sheep, but they promoted GG's system when it came to 'shepherding'. NOW, however, they are totally responsible for not boldly and publicly making things right. Making changes to the assembly schedule and/or just leaving a letter-of-exit to be read by someone else, is not owning the baby(I hope I have this expression correect). Maybe, they are afraid that they will get sued if they 'fess up  I do not know. And there's more and more... That's all for now, Marcia |
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« Reply #196 on: September 13, 2003, 12:35:16 am » |
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68 / The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by Johnson & VanVonderen
The "Can't Talk" Rule
The most powerful of all unspoken rules in the abusive system is what we have already termed the "can't-talk" rule. The "can't-talk" has this thinking behind it: "The real problem cannot be exposed because then it would have to be dealt with and things would have to change; so it must be protected behind walls of silence (neglect) or by assault (legalistic attack). If you speak about the problem out loud, you are the problem. In some way you must be silenced or eliminated." Those who do speak out are most often told, "We didn't have all these problems until you started shooting your mouth off. Everything was fine before you started stirring things up." Or else, to make it sound really spiritual, "You were angry-you didn't confront the matter in a 'loving' way. So it proves you weren't handling the matter in a mature, Christian manner." In either case, the problem remains.
The truth is, when people talk about problems out loud they don't cause them, they simply expose them.
In abusive spiritual systems, there exists a "pretend peace"--what Jeremiah decried, saying, "The prophets say 'peace, peace' when there is none." If what unites us is our pretending to agree, even though we don't agree, then we have nothing more than pretend peace and unity, with undercurrents of tension and backbiting. This is far from "preserving unity and peace in the Holy Spirit," which is to be the hallmark of healthy Christian churches. That is to say, any topic should be open for discussion, and on some points we may agree to disagree and to continue open dialogue on the subject, both parties willing; or we may both agree to suspend discussion for a time if it raises tension. The important point is that both parties be involved in forming the agreement. If what unites us truly is the Holy Spirit and love for one another, then it is possible to disagree and it will not destroy our unity.
The "can't-talk" rule, however, blames the person who talks, and the ensuing punishments pressure questioners into silence.
Here is another test. Susan is being counseled by John, a Christian counselor and leader in the church. John makes aggressive sexual advances toward Susan after a counseling session one afternoon. Susan reports the incident to the church leaders and the secular authorities. John gets in trouble and is taken before courts and boards and committees. Why did John get in trouble?
Was it because Susan exposed him? No. John got into trouble because his advances were inappropriate and illegal. What he might do, however, is somehow communicate to her (and maybe enlist the help of the pastor and other people in the church) that the reason why he's in so much trouble is because Susan spoke up.
Sadly, there are many women like Susan who suffer spiritual abuse when they are called "unsubmissive," "too strong," "disloyal," or "a Jezebel" for exposing abusive Christian male leaders, or even for questioning them. Too many churches communicate this kind of shaming message: "The problem is not that your boundaries were crossed and violated, the problem is that you talked. If you would not have made such a big deal, everything would still be fine." If a person accepts that message, they will stop talking.
The real problem, however, is that if a Christian who feels violated stops talking, then the perpetrator will never be held accountable for his behavior. And the victim will have to "freeze up" the pain and anger of being spiritually abused.
Though some in authority would love to never be questioned or opposed, the fact of the matter is that such a system is a trap and a downfall for any leader. If noticing problems is labeled disloyalty, lack of submission, divisiveness, and a challenge to authority, then there is only a facade of peace and unity. It is impossible for wounds to be healed, and abuse will one day escalate. If authorities are not accountable, then you have built a system that is in opposition to the freedom that is in Christ. You are ignoring James 3: I, which says, "Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we shall incur a stricter judgment."
Leaders are more accountable because of their position of authority-not less accountable. Why? Because if you are a leader people are following you, behaving the way you do. You are spiritually reproducing after your own kind. What are you reproducing?
Identifying the Abusive System / 69
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« Last Edit: September 13, 2003, 01:19:51 am by Marcia »
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faith
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« Reply #197 on: September 19, 2003, 12:55:21 am » |
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My Shepherds
I stood before my shepherds
gushing blood
though I tried so hard to hide
to deny
the shame
the fear
and the wounds
from the attack
by the wolf among their ranks ...
Not one of my shepherds saw
my wounds
or the pools of blood.
My shepherds
why
are they devoid
of indignation
that a wolf among their ranks
stole, killed, destroyed ....
Am I really one of Gods?
A wolf
How could he do this?
Why did he do this?
Who is next?
Who else is bleeding?
Has anyone not survived?
My shepherds
why
are they devoid
of urgency
for others like me
and for me
The wolf
The wolf might still be hungry
for sheep
and hes free to roam, to prey
to steal
to kill
to destroy.
God where are you?
My shepherds
as I stood before them
torn
bloody wounds untended
strictly
instructed me
I must forgive
and not tell anyone else about
the wolf among their ranks
then sent me on my way.
He lied
He looked like one of them
He even talked better than most of them
Are they all like him?
My shepherds
Why??
They dont want me any more ...
They
all
one by one
refuse to see
refuse to know.
Where is God?
Was I really one of His?
The wolf
The sheep
My shepherds
Dont any of them care??!!
Who are they?
Who am I?
Ah
I get it
The wolf among their ranks
is one of them.
I surely
am not
one of them.
- Kathy Cox (Amos 3:3)
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vernecarty
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« Reply #198 on: September 19, 2003, 01:36:08 am » |
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« Last Edit: September 19, 2003, 01:41:00 am by vernecarty »
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vernecarty
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« Reply #199 on: September 19, 2003, 01:51:33 am » |
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He sprang upon the tender flock
And ravaged all at will
Sad cries rang forth, he did not stop
but moved to maim, and kill
And all the while,
The watching shepherds
Did remain silent...still...
Did remain silent still!
Verne
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« Last Edit: September 19, 2003, 02:15:28 am by vernecarty »
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vernecarty
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« Reply #200 on: September 19, 2003, 02:09:29 am » |
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Betty has a hundred or so glass jars in a closet that contain the testicles of the young men she discipled dismembered!
Brent
...hope you don't mind the slight correction Brent... Verne |
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« Last Edit: September 19, 2003, 02:14:13 am by vernecarty »
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M2
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« Reply #201 on: September 19, 2003, 03:57:48 am » |
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He sprang upon the tender flock
And ravaged all at will
Sad cries rang forth, he did not stop
but moved to maim, and kill
And all the while,
The watching shepherds
Did remain silent...still...
Did remain silent still!
Verne
Did you write that Verne? It's pretty good. You should have a verse 2 about how the watching shpherds learned by observing and started imitating... or something like that. Marcia |
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vernecarty
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« Reply #202 on: September 19, 2003, 05:57:32 am » |
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He sprang upon the tender flock
And ravaged all at will
Sad cries rang forth, he did not stop
but moved to maim, and kill
And all the while,
The watching shepherds
Did remain silent...still...
Did remain silent still!
Verne
Did you write that Verne? It's pretty good. Marcia You are most kind...another humble offering: One voice with strident note, at last
Did rise in strong protest
A website was conceived, and fast
Control from George did wrest
The sheep streamed forth with joyful cry
Thank God! At last we're free!
All glory be, to God on high
Who gives men liberty
Who gives men liberty...!Verne p.s. I know there is a world of narrative poetry between those book-ends...feel free to contribute all.... |
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« Last Edit: September 19, 2003, 06:07:26 am by vernecarty »
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vernecarty
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« Reply #203 on: October 05, 2003, 09:01:43 am » |
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Dear Sondra:
As administrator of a new BB I would encourage you to observe some modicum of decency and fair play. I have not chosen to participate in your forum and for that thug of a young man to lift one of my posts from a forum in which I freely chose to participate and post it on yours where I did not, is at best boorish and at worst unethical in the extreme. It really ought to be obvious to even one as dense as 'Matt" that I, for one, have nothing more to say to him. There are any number of reasons, not the least of which is the obvious removal of the original post from the context in which it was made, that what your partner did was most inappropriate and would never be allowed by any self-respecting BB administrator. Particularly in view of what transpired on this BB. I am truly surprised that a person of your supposed delicate sensibilites would permit him to do what he did. Please remove that post from your BB. I am sure in the fine print somewhere Brian maintains copyright purview on what appears on this BB. A savvy business-woman like you would be sure to get my drift...I trust "Matt" will recover from his recent illness soon and return to posting his own muddled musings, unaided by the empty pretension of responding to what I have written for the consideration of those with whom I was actually engaged in dialogue. Thank you.
Verne
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« Last Edit: October 05, 2003, 09:30:44 am by vernecarty »
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M2
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« Reply #204 on: October 06, 2003, 08:45:06 am » |
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Verne, Maybe if you just pretend that it's not really there, it will just go away/disappear.  Marcia |
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vernecarty
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« Reply #205 on: October 06, 2003, 10:26:39 am » |
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Verne, Maybe if you just pretend that it's not really there, it will just go away/disappear. Marcia You are probably right; unless he keeps responding to his own posts over and over and over and over.... Verne |
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« Reply #206 on: October 06, 2003, 09:01:00 pm » |
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The Lord Jesus is my example, and He definitely did NOT take a moderate stance on situations that He encountered. He forgave those that knew not what they were doing, but He also publicly rebuked the Leaders for their behaviour. He did not mince words either, He all out told it like it was.
Mt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mt 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mt 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mt 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
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editor
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« Reply #207 on: October 07, 2003, 08:57:14 pm » |
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The Lord Jesus is my example, and He definitely did NOT take a moderate stance on situations that He encountered. He forgave those that knew not what they were doing, but He also publicly rebuked the Leaders for their behaviour. He did not mince words either, He all out told it like it was.
Mt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mt 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mt 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mt 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Warning: bitter irony and "moderate" sarcasm to followI have always thought that Jesus wasn't in the Spirit in Matt 23. He should have forgiven His enemies, not called them "children of hell," and given them a greater damnation. It's almost like He didn't give them a moderate damnation, but just let Himself get carried away with bitterness and gave them a greater damnation. That just can't be right. Also, I want to condemn and judge all of you who are bitter and unforgiving. Matt 23 does not apply to God's people. It especially doesn't apply to the Assembly system. They didn't travel land and sea to win one proselyte. Sometimes there were none, and a few times there were two. George didn't present a false image, where he tried to look holy on the outside, but was really filthy on the inside. No, he is no different than you or I. We all do the same things he did, but you are all so bitter. You are no better than----nay, even worse than he is! Matt 23 applies to people who are bitter and unforgiving, who want to call God's people "children of hell," and judge people. Jesus was condemning people in this passage. He wasn't condemning the Pharaisees, he was condemning all of you who are bitter, and judgemental, who won't forgive, and who criticize. I extend forgiveness to all of you Pharisees, but I condemn to greater damnation all of you who want to take the Pharisees to task, and point out their sin. In this, I stand against Jesus, who was not "in the spirit." End of "moderate," speech hereInteresting how Jesus spoke to Pharisees, isn't it? Why do you suppose we are so uncomfortable and afraid to do the same, even though we have a clear example in the Bible? Who and what has influenced our thinking? Brent |
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vernecarty
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« Reply #208 on: October 07, 2003, 09:53:08 pm » |
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Interesting how Jesus spoke to Pharisees, isn't it? Why do you suppose we are so uncomfortable and afraid to do the same, even though we have a clear example in the Bible? Who and what has influenced our thinking?
Brent
The thinking is the thing. You will indeed be in possession of remarkable testimony to the effectiveness of George Geftakys methods by carefully scrutinizing the thinking of those who post. This is indeed a key! Queston is...are you outside the box? Verne |
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Joe Sperling
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« Reply #209 on: October 07, 2003, 10:06:25 pm » |
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Wow!! I never realized how bitter Jesus was in Matthew 23 before. He wasn't being very "Christ-like" was he? Where was his moderation and forgiving spirit? He just seemed to "find fault" with everyone. Maybe he was just having a bad day.
--Joe
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