Why Leaders Are Responsible

[M2]

I can hear it now. "Marcia, we are afraid to meet with you individually because you might convince us that we are wrong and we wouldn't want that."

Someone said, in a PM response to mine, that you are an honest inquirer. So on that basis I will make this response. I have emails to back up anything I have recently posted. I will not publicly display those emails as I only wanted to make a point that I had made every effort to meet and talk with them, but it did not happen. After I left I received the 'silent treatment' ie no more email replies from the LBs. They even told the brothers at their General Brother's Meeting that if they replied to my emails then I would write back. Why state the obvious? I will not display personal information to you as I do not know who you are. If you reveal your identity, I may change my mind depending on what I discover.

Marcia

[Joe Sperling]

What Brian says below hits the nail on the head. There really is a "built in" fear of being deceived in  groups like the Assembly. Full blown cults display this same fear by never allowing a solo contact with an "apostate"(someone who has left the group) for fear the apostate may lead to deception. The Jehovah's Witnesses are a good example. They always have several people meet with the"offender" at once, or have the individual come to them and stand before an "open court"--that way, through strength in numbers, they reinforce one another with the "group's" stance on that individual.

Yet, if you address this "fear" you would meet the standard response---to laugh it all off as untrue. "Why should we be afraid of being deceived?" they might mockingly ask---but will you see them meet with this individual out in the open, one on one, allowing the individual to TRULY express their concerns? No---they need a "group" setting to address the individual, where they are totally in control and can manipulate the direction of the conversation.

This is standard procedure and well known by many who have had a disagreement and tried to express their concerns.


--Joe

[vernecarty]

What Brian says below hits the nail on the head. There really is a "built in" fear of being deceived in  groups like the Assembly. Full blown cults display this same fear by never allowing a solo contact with an "apostate"(someone who has left the group) for fear the apostate may lead to deception. The Jehovah's Witnesses are a good example. They always have several people meet with the"offender" at once, or have the individual come to them and stand before an "open court"--that way, through strength in numbers, they reinforce one another with the "group's" stance on that individual.

Yet, if you address this "fear" you would meet the standard response---to laugh it all off as untrue. "Why should we be afraid of being deceived?" they might mockingly ask---but will you see them meet with this individual out in the open, one on one, allowing the individual to TRULY express their concerns? No---they need a "group" setting to address the individual, where they are totally in control and can manipulate the direction of the conversation.

This is standard procedure and well known by many who have had a disagreement and tried to express their concerns.


--Joe

No question about it. What made the manipulation so effective was inculcation of the "herd" mentality early and often. I was struck by Tom's description of the leading brothers' cowardly ganging up on him; not a single one of them, despite knowing the man's testimony and example, having the courage to break ranks and honestly ask the question:
"What are we doing here?"  
It is truly tellling that none of these men have gone to Tom in repentance and to seek reconciliation. After-all it is true that he was right and you were terribly wrong is it not?
Verne


The more you sweat in practice
The less you  bleed in battle!

[Scott McCumber]

Verne,

Anyone who has taken the time to read the accounts on the website will find this a well-documented and common theme.

Steve Irons, Brent Tr0ckman, Tom Maddux, Jim McCumber . . . The list goes on.

None could meet with the great man without his lieutenants and none of the lieutenants were allowed (or had the b@!!s) to meet them individually.

Many times these men requested to meet one-on-one with men they were supposedly friends with and had labored with for 20 years only to be ambushed when they showed up to meet!

Cowards. Liars. Backstabbers.

Scott McCumber

PS - George wanted to take me to task one Sunday afternoon in Fullerton. I faced George, Steve Irons, Mark Miller and a couple other thugs and withstood about 20 minutes of loud berating by the Mad Greek.

I was 15. Guess he was afraid of me!

[vernecarty]

Verne,

 George wanted to take me to task one Sunday afternoon in Fullerton. I faced George, Steve Irons, Mark Miller and a couple other thugs and withstood about 20 minutes of loud berating by the Mad Greek.

I was 15. Guess he was afraid of me!

Why Scott....I had no idea...!
But seriously, what you are describing is part explanantion for the damgage done to the relationships of some of these men and their children. What must have been going through the minds of young and  impressionable persons seeing men who were supposedly God's servants conducting themsleves in such a cowardly and ignoble fashion. The confusion and despair must have been intolerable - no wonder many left and choose not to folllow in their parents footsteps. It was the children who ultimately displayed some integrity! Notwithstanding the unfortunate result of some throwing the baby out with the bath water. I think when all is said and done it is the effect to undermine and ship-wreck the faith of many that will move God to exact the heaviest toll from those responsible. I believe this is just the kind of thing Matthew 18 ominously warns us about.
Verne


 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!  

[Mark Kisla]

To Those of you who know;

Was there ever appointed anywhere a Leading Brother without George Geftakys's approval ?

Was there ever a Leading Brother anywhere who freely challenged any of George Geftakys's teachings and maintained their position as a leading Brother ?

[M2]

To Those of you who know;

Was there ever appointed anywhere a Leading Brother without George Geftakys's approval ?

Was there ever a Leading Brother anywhere who freely challenged any of George Geftakys's teachings and maintained their position as a leading Brother ?

Good questions. I have some answers, but I will instead make this comment.

I was never a LB/LBW/worker so I was not appointed. While I was "in" I disagreed with various ones on various occasions. BUT I confess that I was guilty of participating in a spiritually abusive system and that I was sincerely decieved at the time of my involvement in it.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[Mark Kisla]

To Those of you who know;

Was there ever appointed anywhere a Leading Brother without George Geftakys's approval ?

Was there ever a Leading Brother anywhere who freely challenged any of George Geftakys's teachings and maintained their position as a leading Brother ?

Good questions. I have some answers, but I will instead make this comment.

I was never a LB/LBW/worker so I was not appointed. While I was "in" I disagreed with various ones on various occasions. BUT I confess that I was guilty of participating in a spiritually abusive system and that I was sincerely decieved at the time of my involvement in it.

Lord bless,
Marcia

Marcia ,
I commend and admire you for your honesty. I also want to confess that I was guilty of participating in a spiritually abusive system and that I too was deceived. I want to apologize to those individuals whose faith I adversely affected because of the false doctrine I embraced while in the assembly.
Sincerely,
Mark Kisla

[M2]

Mark,

I was not looking for commendation. I was attempting to make a point. I.e. I have heard certain LBs and others say: well so-and-so was not appointed by GG, and so-and-so withstood GG on such-and-such issue and etc. So.... we weren't really that influenced by GG, and we are not as close to Fullerton as SLO, and we do not have the same problems as .... and it goes on.

My point: position, appointment, withstanding on issues, proximity has not exempted us from our involvement in the Geftakys assembly system.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[Mark Kisla]

Mark,

I was not looking for commendation. I was attempting to make a point. I.e. I have heard certain LBs and others say: well so-and-so was not appointed by GG, and so-and-so withstood GG on such-and-such issue and etc. So.... we weren't really that influenced by GG, and we are not as close to Fullerton as SLO, and we do not have the same problems as .... and it goes on.

My point: position, appointment, withstanding on issues, proximity has not exempted us from our involvement in the Geftakys assembly system.

Lord bless,
Marcia

I understand & agree

[BeckyW]

Marcia and all,
I have another thought on why leaders hesitate to meet one on one with those who disagree with them.  It may be because, one on one, they will actually find themselves agreeing with the dissenter, remembering that they are talking with someone, a fellow believer in Christ, who has served in the assembly with them for many years.  They might realize that the person is not an apostate, or a flake, or a railer, or "has issues", or whatever label leaders may apply in order to justify their ungracious treatment of them.
One on one, they might hear their conscience, or the still small voice of God Himself.
But leaders together may experience the years of programming that kicks in and says, "unity", "stand together", etc. It was taught and caught from the top down to behave in these loyal-to-the-system ways.
Many of us treated ones who left badly, because we thought there was never a 'good' reason to leave.  
And leaders led the way.
Becky

[Oscar]

Hi all,

Last Sunday I had a brief encounter with  an "un-leading brother" from a nearby assembly.

I now understand much better why these people are continuing.

What I encountered was an attitude of smug superiority.  He obviously considered his group to be the spiritual elite.

I asked him who the leading brothers were, and his answer was "we don't have any leading brothers, they have all stepped down".

So, I asked him how they make decisions.  His reply was "by the unity of the brethren". (this is straight out of PB teaching).

Sooo, I said, "Now that's very scriptural, an assembly with no leadership.  Where do you see this "unity" idea in the Bible?"

His reply was, "Acts 15".

The conversation didn't go on much after that.  I was invited to eat lunch with him and some others, but I felt it would be best to apply my time elsewhere.

I am apalled, but not surprised, by his answer.  This is the result of only hearing one explaination of the scriptures and not having anything to compare it with.

The conference of acts 15 involved two different assemblies, and had two apostles and the brother of Jesus Christ present!  The apostle James was killed by Herod prior to this.

Eusebius says that he became much beloved and respected and was a pillar of the faith.

So...he told them what they were going to do, "I give my judgement", and they agreed.

When this crowd decides to meet at 9:30 instead of 9:15 or such, they think that they are doing the same thing.  When I left the assembly I told Steve Irons that the fundamental reason was that the whole thing was based on a false mysticism.  

THIS IS EXPONENTIAL FALSE MYSTICISM!

What pathetic, abysmal ignorance....and all of this was said in an attitude of condesension.  

So very very sad.

Thomas Maddux

[vernecarty]

Hi all,

Last Sunday I had a brief encounter with  an "un-leading brother" from a nearby assembly.

I now understand much better why these people are continuing.

What I encountered was an attitude of smug superiority.  He obviously considered his group to be the spiritual elite.

I asked him who the leading brothers were, and his answer was "we don't have any leading brothers, they have all stepped down".

So, I asked him how they make decisions.  His reply was "by the unity of the brethren". (this is straight out of PB teaching).

Sooo, I said, "Now that's very scriptural, an assembly with no leadership.  Where do you see this "unity" idea in the Bible?"

His reply was, "Acts 15".

The conversation didn't go on much after that.  I was invited to eat lunch with him and some others, but I felt it would be best to apply my time elsewhere.

I am apalled, but not surprised, by his answer.  This is the result of only hearing one explaination of the scriptures and not having anything to compare it with.

The conference of acts 15 involved two different assemblies, and had two apostles and the brother of Jesus Christ present!  The apostle James was killed by Herod prior to this.

Eusebius says that he became much beloved and respected and was a pillar of the faith.

So...he told them what they were going to do, "I give my judgement", and they agreed.

When this crowd decides to meet at 9:30 instead of 9:15 or such, they think that they are doing the same thing.  When I left the assembly I told Steve Irons that the fundamental reason was that the whole thing was based on a false mysticism.  

THIS IS EXPONENTIAL FALSE MYSTICISM!

What pathetic, abysmal ignorance....and all of this was said in an attitude of condesension.  

So very very sad.

Thomas Maddux

I do not mean this in any way to be condemnatory; I simply make it as a strictly theological observation.
God has spoken with absolute and conclusive authority concerning the work of George Geftakys and the system of assemblies that he established. I believe it was his Divine purpose to deliver His own from a satanic system of deception and depravity, though a convincing counterfeit.  That this has indeed been accomplished is in no way disputable.
One is therefore left with the conclusion that those still clinging to what which God has judged must have been designated for just that purpose. Behold the goodness and severity of God...!
Verne
I would have been curious as to his explanation for why he as a former LB stepped down...they after-all need leaders now more than ever don't they? Exactly what kind of shepherd is he anyway, abondoning that poor and hapless flock. Could it be that he has plans to "step-up" in the near future?

[M2]

What I encountered was an attitude of smug superiority.  He obviously considered his group to be the spiritual elite.
...
What pathetic, abysmal ignorance....and all of this was said in an attitude of condesension.  

So very very sad.

Thomas Maddux

But Tom, they have repented from "elitism". Surely you must have mis-understood.

Marcia

[Oscar]

What I encountered was an attitude of smug superiority.  He obviously considered his group to be the spiritual elite.
...
What pathetic, abysmal ignorance....and all of this was said in an attitude of condesension.  

So very very sad.

Thomas Maddux

But Tom, they have repented from "elitism". Surely you must have mis-understood.

Marcia

Marcia,

One would think so, but there is just something about a sneer that you can't hide.

Thomas Maddux