Why Leaders Are Responsible

[vernecarty]

All,

My attempts to show the definition of a "system" was in reply to Verne's claim that God had "cursed" GG's false religious system.

Here is another try at trying to clarify my point.

Let's take the SLO assembly.  It, if I don't miss my guess, consisted of 1. a rented building.  2. A group of people ascribing to and practicing certain ideas and beliefs.  3. Some bits and pieces of property, like chairs, hymnbooks, a few extra head coverings, a coffee maker or two and so on.

Now, the building is still there, but not in use by those people.  The people are still there, but don't believe or practice the peculiar assembly doctrines any more.  The property still exists, but is probably scattered around in various garages and homes. (if this does not describe SLO, it describes some other ex-GG assemblies).

Now, what did God curse?  The building?  The stuff?  The people?  Brent, are you cursed?

If God didn't curse any of those things, then what exactly DID he curse?  It doesn't seem to me that there is anything else to curse.  The people, I would say, were BLESSED, not cursed.  

The blessing was the entrance of greater light when they saw the truth about GG and his teachings and were set free.

All it took to dissolve the assembly, (ies) was some truth. That just shows the insubstantial nature of evil.  As Augustine said, evil has no being, it is just the absence of good. It is like light and darkness.  Light is a stream of photons, it has physical being.  Darkness is just the absence of photons.  It is nothing.

 I think it is fair to say that God is dealing with GG.  He is certainly reaping what he has sown.  

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Hi Tom,

I think your point is well taken.  However, the "system," or organization, had nothing to do with the stuff.  It had to do with the ideas and practices that we engaged in.  Some people were sincere, some were coerced, a few were corrupt.

Example:  The idea of The House of God. Brent

Tom Brent is exactly right. Where does evil come from? It begins with wrong thinking beginninig with Lucifer who thought he would be like the Most High. It has nothing to do with stuff except "idea" stuff.

 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Genesis 6:5  

AAAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!

This is exactly what I meant when I said that the "system" did not have objective existence as an entity in this world that God could curse.  All it was/is/has been was a cognitive construct in the minds of a group of people.  If God were going to curse it He would have to curse our minds.  

Therefore, I think that talking about GG's IDEAS as if they were an object that could receive cursing is incorrect.

Brent is correct in saying,

"Example:  The idea of The House of God.  In the Assembly, the House of God meant the Assembly meetings and its governement.  The idea was that God's purpose was always centered on His House.  We were His house, the Church down the street was not.  The LB's were His government.  The Church down the street was not----it's all in Testimony to Jesus.

The idea, which was erroneous, kept us all in bondage to attend all the meetings and obey the leaders---that is if we valued what God was doing.  This idea produced a behavior, the endless grind of meetings, workshops, seminars, etc.  It also produced an elitist attitude and spiritual pride, just like the Pharisees.

This is what I mean by the "system."  The card table that held the bread and wine wasn't cursed, neither was the rented room or the hymnbooks.  The bondage that came about by adherence to the doctrine and practice promulgated by GG is the "system."  That sort of behavior is wrong, and the fruit it produces is bad fruit."

Well, however God "put paid" to the GG assemblies, it is done, and GG is finished as far as founding a great movement.

"FREE AT LAST, FREE AT LAST, PRAISE GOD WE'RE FREE AT LAST"

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Didn't Plato deal with this already in his "world of ideas" construct? We have in this discussion fallen prey to making a distinction without a real difference. Point well taken Tom.

 If God were going to curse it He would have to curse our minds.  

You know what? In some cases He certainly has!!


 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient
Romans 1:28

Wrong thinking engenders wrong outcomes, i.e. produces the "stuff" of which evil is made...

Verne

[M2]

But what would real repentance look like?  First, an admission - both publicly and from individual to individual - that the leaders screwed up, that they committed malpractice of the worst degree, that they are utterly unfit to lead anything ever again.  Then, second, leaving the existing assemblies and becoming nobodies in need of healing and cleansing at a healthy church.  None of the leaders in Fullerton has openly admitted the magnitude and extent of their failure.

I agree with Mith that this kind of a humble attiude would be a good demonstration of real repentance. It took Moses a good 40 years to be changed from a murderer to a leader again. The healing time varies from situation to situation. Mark C, Steve I, Tom M and others have demonstrated a real laying aside of Geftakysism and I personally would not have any qualms if they were given leadership roles in their present churches. However, many existing and ex-LBs have not truly repented even though they claim that they have.

Marcia

[vernecarty]

Is it possible that what keeps some from admitting how destructive the assembly system was and motivates their clinging to it despite what God did, is that which ensnared the first transgressor - PRIDE?
Why is it so hard for some to admit - We were wrong??!!
In the now ill-fated attempts to somehow prove that it really  wasn't all bad, and that indeed something good can be salvaged from the smoldering ruins of God's judgment, there is something strangely reminiscent of that first and ancient transgression. The caveat notwithstanding, God apparently does allow a rebuilding of Jericho...
Verne

[golden]

Isaiah 29
20   For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:
21   That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.
22   Therefore thus saith the LORD, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale.
23   But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.
24   They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

[M2]

Is it possible that what keeps some from admitting how destructive the assembly system was and motivates their clinging to it despite what God did, is that which ensnared the first transgressor - PRIDE?
Why is it so hard for some to admit - We were wrong??!!
In the now ill-fated attempts to somehow prove that it really  wasn't all bad, and that indeed something good can be salvaged from the smoldering ruins of God's judgment, there is something strangely reminiscent of that first and ancient transgression. The caveat notwithstanding, God apparently does allow a rebuilding of Jericho...
Verne

Some of the most staunch supporters of maintaining an 'assembly' lifestyle are indeed proud of their accomplishments.

Proud - that they did not succumb to GG in the first place
Proud - that they sought the Lord, and the Lord led them in their decisions, not GG or the LBs
Proud - that they knew when GG was off track in his ministry, so they just shrugged it off as "Well, we just don't see eye to eye on that topic"
Proud - that they were not as worldly as some of the other churches

There's probably more. These ones remind me of the Pharisee and the tax-gatherer who were praying in the temple.
LUK 18:11 "The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself, 'God, I thank Thee that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer.
LUK 18:12 'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'
LUK 18:13 "But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'
LUK 18:14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted."

Lord bless,
Marcia

[jesusfreak]

Is it possible that what keeps some from admitting how destructive the assembly system was and motivates their clinging to it despite what God did, is that which ensnared the first transgressor - PRIDE?

Sure, it is entirely possible. To extend the thought, what form of pride are you speaking of?  Lets assume the negative:  They have just wasted X years of their lives over something they have dedicated all they had too, and would rather live in denial than to face reality.  They enjoyed the "placement" possessed within the Assembly system and have no preference to moving on to other lifestyles, in fact they think their situation is the best.  

Lets assume the positive: They have collectively developed a perspective of God in which they feel they thrive, and as they are at peace with it, they are proud.  They feel they are making a significant impact in this world for Christ, and have found the Assembly as a comfortable zone in which they can be nourished.  You are "proud" through being "happy".

Of course, this is a *VERY* simplistic picture of what is going on, but as it completely excludes the taint within the groups, it is perhaps useful in looking for "untainted" reasons why many may still choose these groups.   My personal opinion is that this taint is insurmountable by its definition, but my beliefs do not require these ones to be "prideful" for their continued attendance to this System to be explained.  

Why is it so hard for some to admit - We were wrong??!!

The set of cases I am viewing here are the groups who have made attempts to analyze and explain away the various errs and inaccuracies of faults uncovered.  I do not include the groups that still allow GG to teach.

That said, these groups *have* admitted they were wrong........but not to the length that you are longing for.  Consider this: They are acting under the assumption that it is *not* the house church ideal which is in the wrong, but it is within the doctrine that inaccuracies exist.  As such, corrective analysis of the doctrine is seen as possible and is, in their eyes, slowly being achieved.  I believe this falls quite in line with the legalistic conservativism found with the groups.....and I must now include the fundamental flaw of their plight.  I recently used the analogy (i forget where) that "they all have been bathing in mud for years, and now they use each other to check for cleanliness".  It is the underlying taint with clouds their efforts and not, directly, the people.  As for the end potential of their situation, I like to think of a math analogy.  You have 2 points with a distance between them over which you can only cross half the remaining distance each time you move.  Will you ever get where you are going? No, there is a fundamental flaw.
just a thought

In the now ill-fated attempts to somehow prove that it really  wasn't all bad, and that indeed something good can be salvaged from the smoldering ruins of God's judgment, there is something strangely reminiscent of that first and ancient transgression. The caveat notwithstanding, God apparently does allow a rebuilding of Jericho...

It would indeed be interesting to see where this all leads.

--
lucas

[Delila Jahn]

As soon as I found out (days ago) about the 'fall out' - I've been out of fellowship for years and years - I called Garnet Wilhelm, long time lb in Estevan.  It was the most open conversation I've ever had with a lb.  He said I was always welcome in his home.  I have not had the courage to call any others.  I'll be taking Garnet and his wife up on that offer soon enough because there are things I'd like to know but here's how I see Estevan and Calgary and both places I lived for years so I can have some sense when speaking of my own experiences there: they were honestly mislead. So call me dumb for saying so.  I know there are wounded from both places who would say different.  Ottawa on the other hand was a very scary place and I lived there four years and I know the connection to Omaha and Fullerton was stronger in both these places.   But you can't tell people to feel for the backs of their heads and turn the switch to the 'on' position.  No one could have told me that when I counseled people to stay or ran to the leadership everytime I had a question that needed their special 'clarification' - even if the answer sounded ridiculous to me.  I sucked it up.  No one could have told me to turn my brain on.  So now, we expect the leadership in these places to automatically find the 'on' switch and start thinking. Don't you think that's a big step for some people?  In my opinion Garnet's oblivious and we'll talk soon enough but I think he's honestly oblivious to much.
delila

[M2]

So now, we expect the leadership in these places to automatically find the 'on' switch and start thinking. Don't you think that's a big step for some people?  In my opinion Garnet's oblivious and we'll talk soon enough but I think he's honestly oblivious to much.
delila

Dear Delila,

It is great to hear from you. I have been thinking of you recently and wondering how to get in touch with you and now here you are. I've enjoyed our email correspondence since you registered.

My heart was grieved all those years ago when I observed your 'training' process. But my voice was nothing against the great ones. However if I am oblivious to having contributed to your 'training' myself, please remind me so that I may ask your forgiveness. I know that Bernie and Diana truly cared for you and that Ronan stood for you when you faced the dilemna of returning to Ottawa or not. I was told that you were attempting to distance yourself from Darrell B, as the reason for your not returning (a lie).

Back to the topic of this thread 'Why Leaders Are Responsible'. It is a year now since we have had to face up to the fact that we were deceived when we thought that George Geftakys was God's servant, and followed him and his assembly system as if it was a 'testimony to Jesus'. So IMO any leader who is oblivious is oblivious by their own choice. They have had many warnings and opportunites to 'honestly inquire', but have repeatedly refused the means of their deliverance from Geftakysism. Nice people get deceived too. I pray that your contact with Garnet and Margaret will be profitable, but I warn you to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees. Garnet Wilhelm, Ronan Cossette, Dave Clearwater, Bernie Cossette, Mark Vass, Bob Smith(LBK??), Armand Cossette, Dina Dinakaran are/were LBs in the Canadian assemblies, and some of them were workers too. Their wives were/are the LBWs who ruled along with them; we had this private joke about 'leading sisters'. The wives know how to manipulate and control just as aptly as their husbands. All leaders are responsible for their present condition. God has answered their prayers but they have turned a deaf ear. Those who are going to other gatherings, because the assembly in their locality has disbanded, may actully infect the new gathering with their poisoned stew if they have not truly  repented from their involvement with GG. Some have the notion that they are called to spread 'the vision' (pronounced division) and are proud when they lead small group studies in their homes. Bob Smith has demonstrated very clearly that he remains assembly sympathetic, as do the Cossettes and possibly the other leaders as well.

Lord bless,
Much love,
Marcia

[Kimberley Tobin]

I can't agree with you more, Marcia.  Many of these leaders knew of the kind of things that were going on in SLO (it wasn't just happening there, every assembly had their own things happening, that had the lowly members been aware of it, there would have been outcries.)

Many of us had struggles internally that, armed with the right information (i.e. the SLO situation with David and his family and the assembly leaderships' coverup attempt), we fled for our lives.  When my husband and I learned of what happened up in SLO we were gone within 2 days.  Most of these leaders knew of these situations or others like them.  So what was their excuse for the "on" switch to turn on?  I don't pity them, or excuse them.  They should have stood up for righteousness sake and not been cowards!  I have lost all respect for any assembly member, leader or not, who has continued in their assembly ways (whether their assembly has disbanded or not).  They continue their elitist, shunning ways, while holding themselves out to be men and women of honor and integrity.  And there are people in the mainstream evangelical community who are eating it up.  We knew how to "look good" in the assembly, didn't we?

[al Hartman]

Hi Everyone,

     My PC has been down, so I'm way behind on the BB, & just catching up on this thread.

     It continually amazes me that a thread like this one can be on its 23rd page and have been read thousands of times, and still there is more to be said.  This is, in part, because people are still discovering what has happened and finding this BB, as has Delilah (Welcome! )

     This thread has served to establish two facts: [1] That leaders are responsible, and [2] Why they are responsible.  There is a parallel between what happened with us and events following WW2:

     The world was outraged when Nazi leaders, brought to trial as "war criminals," attempted to excuse their actions as merely the responses of soldiers following the orders of their superiors.  This occurred at every level, from the highest offices of the Nazi regime to the lowliest guards accused of cruelty to their captives.
     And so it has been within the assembly structure, for there are hierarchies within hierarchies within hierarchies...
GG & BG lorded over elders & workers, followed by LBs (& LBWs), heads of training houses, husbands over wives, parents over children and, in many cases, older children over the younger.  Not everyone was guilty in equal measure, but the "cowards" of whom Kimberly speaks are far more numerous than at first would appear.
     At our individual stations in the assembly, many (if not all) of us thought of ourselves as soldiers in the Lord's army, doing our respective duties, simply following orders.  And we must each face our own personal Nuremberg-- we must own up to our behavior, hear the accusations against us, and state our plea.
     We may have simply been following orders, obeying those above us in the chain of command, perhaps believing in what we did, perhaps acting out of fear of the consequences of disobedience.  This may explain our actions and attitudes, but it does not excuse them.  None who have received Christ are without the witness of God's Holy Spirit in our lives to guide us into all truth and away from error and sin.  We cannot have suffered the stifling of that Divine Voice within us except by our own choices.  Others, even satan himself, may attempt to distract us with a lot of noise and smoke, but none can quench the Spirit of the Living God when He speaks to us.

     Is there guilt on the part of the leadership?  Yes, at every stratum, and those who share in the guilt at even the lowliest level should have compassion toward those who were guilty at the highest.
     Do I suggest softness?  Hardly!  The only right followup to guilt is repentance.  We must require it of ourselves, and accept nothing less from others.  Apologies can be attractive, but the weight of their effect can only be borne by an utter change in attitude and behavior.  Only the confession before God that permits the receiving of God's forgiveness can bring about true repentance-- all else is merely charade.

     When the Light of God's Truth breaks upon us, there is great relief, a sense of deliverance, rescue, new understanding.  With this arrives a danger, for much shall be required of those to whom much has been given.
     Revelation (enlightenment) so inspires us by its greatness that it is easy to believe that "No one has ever yet seen as cleary as I do now!"  But humility is the order of the day.  What God shows me is for my edification first of all.  Whatever He teaches me, I must learn to implement into my own life, both in my thinking and in my doings.  Then, perhaps he may lead me to share it with another.
     Those who have children will understand:  When a child first discovers a truth, that child feels like the wisest person on earth, and can't wait to tell everyone else this grand "new" truth!  But it is only "new" to that child...  Others have known it for ages, or are not yet prepared to see it.
     Those of us who are no longer children must guard ourselves against being propelled by the thrill of discovery into teaching something before we have accurately learned it.  God has shown it to me so that I may learn it in my own life, then offer it back to Him to use as He directs...

Hoping for your safety and prosperity in Christ this year,
al Hartman

[al Hartman]

Al,

Delila instructed me many years ago that her name is spelled Delila without the H because she was delivered from hell. I will never forget how to spell Delila's name now.  

Lord bless,
Marcia

     I actually noticed the correct spelling and intended to use it, but somehow didn't.  Maybe that was so you would share with us about the "H."

     In the future, I will make every effort to get it right, Delilah, and thanks for pointing it out, Marsha .

 ;)al

[mithrandir]

I can't agree with you more, Marcia.  Many of these leaders knew of the kind of things that were going on in SLO (it wasn't just happening there, every assembly had their own things happening, that had the lowly members been aware of it, there would have been outcries.)

Many of us had struggles internally that, armed with the right information (i.e. the SLO situation with David and his family and the assembly leaderships' coverup attempt), we fled for our lives.  When my husband and I learned of what happened up in SLO we were gone within 2 days.  Most of these leaders knew of these situations or others like them.  So what was their excuse for the "on" switch to turn on?  I don't pity them, or excuse them.  They should have stood up for righteousness sake and not been cowards!  I have lost all respect for any assembly member, leader or not, who has continued in their assembly ways (whether their assembly has disbanded or not).  They continue their elitist, shunning ways, while holding themselves out to be men and women of honor and integrity.  And there are people in the mainstream evangelical community who are eating it up.  We knew how to "look good" in the assembly, didn't we?

Looking back on things, I began what would be my journey out of the assembly in 1994.  I had given so much, to the point of having almost nothing left to give.  I had just graduated college, though it was a long and bitter struggle (what with being in brothers' houses, New Song, campus ministry, etc.).  And I was treated like used-up trash.  Had I known back in 1994 what kind of place the Assembly was, and what kind of men were its leaders, not only would I have left, but I would have busted a few leaders' jaws in the process.  Even now, reading the words of those who are just now telling their stories of abuse fills me with a rush of anger.

But I can rejoice that this week, I relaxed, worked on my house, went to a normal church, and was not at Cal State Fullerton dressed up in nice clothes and a tie, trying to be God's policeman while George Geftakys beat his gums on stage.  Truly I could find more uses for used toilet paper than for George's seminars!

Clarence Thompson

[al Hartman]

If we ever get to understand the evil in the Assembly it will be because of those willing to tell their stories.  Thanks to all who are willing to participate in this endeavor.
                                                God Bless,  Mark C.

Is it not interesting that there are still some (thankfully we have learned to ignore them) who will vehemently disagree even with the above premise, i.e. that evil did exist...
This I think is the kind of mentality that would mitigate the sin of Eve by pointing out:

"But the fruit was nutritous!..."
Verne

To Those Who hope to see the assemblies rise from the ashes,
To Those Who deny that the assemblies have failed,
To Those attempting to carry assembly values into other venues,
Especially to Those Wives Who see the errors of your husbands' judgment, but feel duty-bound to stand by your man,

     It feels like trying to break into a bank vault using only my forehead, but I want to try once more:
     Can you find the courage to ask yourself what you are afraid of?  Why aren't you willing to listen without feeling you must debate and win?  Don't you understand that if you are on the Lord's side you have nothing to fear?  Who can overthrow the Living God?  If God is for you, who can stand against you?
     If you are unwilling to consider the testimonies and the appeals of those who post on this bulletin board, isn't it because you are afraid they may be right, and that that would mean that you are wrong?
     But if you are claiming to represent Christ's interests, and there is even the slightest possibility you may be wrong, don't you owe it to your Savior to find that out?  Surely you do not want to continue representing Him falsely, if that is the case?!  And can you not trust Him to protect you from deception as He fulfills His promise to you that His Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth?
     We present the simplest of gospels: Salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ; the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast.  Is there any reason why you should not nobly search the Scriptures to see whether these things are so?
     What pride, what prestige, what convenience could motivate you to neglect the opportunity to either prove yourself true to Christ or else sweep your life free of error?
     I could continue, but I think it has been said for now:  Come, let us reason together...

In faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ,
In hope of the Savior's soon return,
In love of Him Who first loved us, and of all for whom He died,

al Hartman

[summer007]

I just wanted to add this as food for thought I was wondering how many LB's there are that hav'ent come forward...out of the 8 that have..(of course many left along time ago wont count those...) and I came up with about 35 according to  reflections references of the groups left...This is only a rough estimate...and I've met or personally known about 18 of them....Heres a quote from an Frederick the Great (1712-1786)--IF MY SOLDIERS BEGAN TO THINK,NOT ONE OF THEM WOULD REMAIN IN THE RANKS.....

[mithrandir]

I heard preaching on an interesting passage while in church today (yes, yes, I said "in church."  I went to church!  I did not go "to meeting." )

It was on Luke 19, and the transformation of Zaccheus' life.  When the Lord met Zaccheus, the evidence of his repentance was that he said to the Lord, "Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much."  And the Lord's response to him is noteworthy.  He didn't say, "Now, Zaccheus, you don't have to do all that.  Really, the people you defrauded just need to forgive.  They need to learn not to be so bitter.  All that matters is that you were really sorry."  No, rather, the Lord commended this evidence of Zaccheus' changed heart.  He said, "Today, salvation has come to this house, because he too is a son of Abraham."

This radical repentance of Zaccheus is what is still lacking in almost every leader or ex-leader of a Geftakys group.  Note, I said almost every leader - but some have truly repented.  And there are others who held or wanted or strove for priveleged positions - whether doorkeeper, worker, head steward, leading couple, ad nauseaum - who still need to repent.

mithrandir