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Arthur
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« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2003, 02:33:57 am » |
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I seems to me the critical question is not so much the style of governance but the quality of the men serving.
Verne
You can say that again. Excellent point! |
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« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2003, 02:38:57 am » |
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It also sounds like the way the assembly's government was setup. And yes we did use our feet!
The Assembly was a little different in this respect: We claimed that the elders and leading bro's governed the Assembly, but in reality it was George. They claimed that God raised up the leadership, but really George did. George was a "episkopos" but he claimed to be a brother-among-brothers. The congregation was not free, unless their only recourse was to forsake all. If we missed a meeting, we were asked to give account! The whole thing was twisted and backwards! They should have just said, "George is the pastor of the movement, and we have been appointed by him, in order to help him and promote his vision. Part of that vision is that we shouldn't ever miss meetings, and we need to submit a schedule to leadership...etc." And yes, Calvary Chapel is but one of many churches set up in a way that I outlined. Brent |
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Arthur
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« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2003, 02:58:44 am » |
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The Assembly was a little different in this respect:
We claimed that the elders and leading bro's governed the Assembly, but in reality it was George. They claimed that God raised up the leadership, but really George did.
George was a "episkopos" but he claimed to be a brother-among-brothers.
The congregation was not free, unless their only recourse was to forsake all. If we missed a meeting, we were asked to give account!
The whole thing was twisted and backwards!
They should have just said, "George is the pastor of the movement, and we have been appointed by him, in order to help him and promote his vision. Part of that vision is that we shouldn't ever miss meetings, and we need to submit a schedule to leadership...etc."
Oo, oo, I think we're hitting on to something here. Why is it that what was said was different than what was practised? Why wasn't it just all out in the open? I mean, if it was all legitimate and no one was doing anything wrong then let's just let it be out in front of everyone, clear and in plain view. Well, of course we know it wasn't legit, but why the excessive need for coverup and tight control? I think it is because we all had our Bibles right there in front of us, clearly proclaiming the truth. I mean, think about it. What kind of a con-artist would give lectures to you out of the manual that tells you the truth about his con-job?!? One thing that I thought of when I was first joining the assembly was--"there something strange here, but these people seem to be following Jesus. I want to follow Jesus too. Well, if there is something wrong then I'll find out because we sure do read the Bible alot."  One of the first verses that really struck me and that I held on to was that Jesus said, "If you continue in my word then shall you be my disciples indeed and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Indeed. |
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« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2003, 03:04:31 am » |
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Here is a group that I have recently looked into. I was contacted by a parent of one of their members. They read their Bibles as much or more than anyone I have ever encountered. http://www.specialministries.orgRead especially the one where they say they are proud to be a cult. Lurking... |
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Arthur
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« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2003, 03:32:16 am » |
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Here is a group that I have recently looked into. I was contacted by a parent of one of their members. They read their Bibles as much or more than anyone I have ever encountered. http://www.specialministries.orgRead especially the one where they say they are proud to be a cult. Lurking... Wow do they make Peter out to be the bad guy! You know that's funny, because I remember one message from GG in which he said something about how Peter just implied that he had obtained the crown whereas Paul explicitly stated it. I got the impression from that message and some others of GG that he likened himself only to Paul and not to Peter. A cursory glance of the New Testament does not show Peter in near as good of a light as Paul (after all, Peter didn't rebuke Paul in front of everyone, but Paul sure did--hmm, GG's modus operandi and not for the good reason Paul had) and no doubt GG noted that into distinction into his overcoming catalog, missing the point of Peter's example of how Jesus changed his life and that it's not about importance or the preeminence of any person--all are servants of Jesus and said so of themselves, including Paul. |
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« Last Edit: June 05, 2003, 03:32:52 am by Arthur »
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« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2003, 06:02:50 am » |
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What is so interesting about the specialministries.org website, and the group that it represents, is that these people are clearly teaching a false gospel.
They make no apologies for it. Quite the opposite, they say that the entire Christian world is teaching a false gospel! They read and study, pray fervently, and practice biblical submission to God's chosen servant.
They also teach, among a variety of falsehoods, that a person must die to sin in order to be born again. Christians can't falter, or sin, so if someone is sinning, they are not a Christian. Of course, one of the signs that really shows that a person is a sinner, and therefore not a Christian, is if they leave the Greater Ministries group....
I am curious if any of the people on the forum who defend the Assembly, or its leaders, would care to comment on this group?
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Peacefulg
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« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2003, 07:25:00 pm » |
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Verne, you are so correct when you mention what is the quality of those men making the choice.
Brent to add to your government example where would you put the time of the Judges. Looking at things, we know the Lord never wanted to give the people a King, and judges seem to be the new testament principle of what Elders were intended for (our close too it).
Last, the whole position of a pastor is very strange to me the way the church sees them today. In Eph. 4 we see that there are apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.
1. Does this mean only one in each place, or could there be 3 of them here and none over there.
2. Are pastors and teachers one in the same all the time?
- If no, then why are the teachers not more prevlant in teaching.
- Elders and Deacons must be apt to teach, so why do we rarely see them (now I go to a Calvary, but why do places like them and others you mainly only see an elder or deacon preach or teach when the pastor is out sick or travelling).
3. What type of leadership position should the others hold (please do not start a discussion over is there apostles today in the church).
4. Lastly in context are these more gifts, or leadership positions.
Cheers,
George
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« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2003, 08:47:59 pm » |
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Verne, you are so correct when you mention what is the quality of those men making the choice.
Brent to add to your government example where would you put the time of the Judges. Looking at things, we know the Lord never wanted to give the people a King, and judges seem to be the new testament principle of what Elders were intended for (our close too it).
Last, the whole position of a pastor is very strange to me the way the church sees them today. In Eph. 4 we see that there are apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.
1. Does this mean only one in each place, or could there be 3 of them here and none over there.
2. Are pastors and teachers one in the same all the time?
- If no, then why are the teachers not more prevlant in teaching.
- Elders and Deacons must be apt to teach, so why do we rarely see them (now I go to a Calvary, but why do places like them and others you mainly only see an elder or deacon preach or teach when the pastor is out sick or travelling).
3. What type of leadership position should the others hold (please do not start a discussion over is there apostles today in the church).
4. Lastly in context are these more gifts, or leadership positions.
Cheers,
George
Hi George: Good questions! I certainly don't have an authoritative answer to them, but they are things I have mulled over quite a bit. I see Moses as a Priest/King, in that he ruled and mediated. I see the Judges the same way. The Kings of Israel were not priests (Uzziah comes to mind), but ruled with the priest's counsel, so it was a continuation of the Priest/King model, after a fashion. As for Judges being like elders, I must think about this before commenting. It never crossed my mind before. I think most churches have more than one pastor. Most churches also have a senior pastor, with assistants, worship pastor, college pastor, etc. I don't think there is anything wrong with having more, but I would say that every church has pastors, whether they admit it or not. Someone is going to function in this way. Elders and Deacons teach regularly in my church, especially in small groups, retreats, conferences, and Bible studies. The senior pastor teaches mainly on Sunday, and spends much of his time counseling and overseeing the direction of the church. Here at Calvary SLO, the emphasis is to see people not looking to Sunday as their whole "church" life, but to get "plugged in" by getting involved in other things, like home groups, etc. There are plenty of opportunities for people to teach and pastor in this setting, and it is encouraged. As far as leadership, I think people should be free to act according to God's leading. There have been several quite ambitious projects started by different people during the time of my involvement, some of which have been totally successfull, while others have been total failures. The point is that people had the freedom to step out in faith, with the full support of the church leadership. (I am not aware if any endeavors were stopped, but they could have been) Leaders should be gifted people, and I see them as a gift. I thank God for my pastors! Brent |
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Peacefulg
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« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2003, 09:29:03 pm » |
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Hey Verne and Brent, thanks for the replies, and like Brent said these and other questions are ones to be mulled.
Brent, I take it that your other pastors along with "the" pastor, and the elders and deacons have a very good thing going there (which is rare I must say).
One thing, what in the world is a Music, College, etc. pastor? If they are people assigned to watch that particular group then should not the princple set in Acts 6 apply better to them (i.e., be deacons leading or over such and such ministry)?
I do not mean this to be an attack on Pastors, but in the bible Elders and Deacons are the "main" leadership you read about in a gathering not the pastor. I knew from day one that GG pulled the strings in the Assembly, but he was only a man and I was not about to let him stand in my way (I guess that is why on the campus, I never went the extra mile to win people to the Assembly, but rejoiced more when they got on with the Lord and not with George).
No matter what a lot of former assembly leaders say, they were also trying to grow into the "grace, knowledge, and good favor" of George. I so rejoice that many have seen the light in this life and not the next. PTL!!!!!
Cheers,
G
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« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2003, 09:49:44 pm » |
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Brent, I take it that your other pastors along with "the" pastor, and the elders and deacons have a very good thing going there (which is rare I must say).
Yep, I must say that we have a really good thing going here, at least for the 3 years I have been there. We lost our "pillar," the assistant pastor, to a missionary endeavor in Scotland. I honestly didn't think the church would recover, because this man was so gifted, (He was a key player in the website/exposure of the Assembly, and helped me with some of my writing). However, we have only grown in his absence, although we miss him and his wife dearly. One thing, what in the world is a Music, College, etc. pastor? If they are people assigned to watch that particular group then should not the princple set in Acts 6 apply better to them (i.e., be deacons leading or over such and such ministry The current worship pastor started off as a guy who knew how to play guitar, and sang in a home group. Before he was on staff, he oversaw the worship team, and did pre-marital counseling and weddings. He was brought on staff when the assistant I mentioned above departed for Scottland. The Worship pastor is responsible for the people who sing and play intruments. Besides the practice schedule, I am sure he tries to stay as close as possible to each person involved, in order to insure that the very important role they play is adorned by a Christ honoring life, and that they are able to grow in grace. He has also written many songs, etc. Also, he oversee's the home groups, and serves as a resource for the people who lead and teach in them. We live in a college town. On Sunday morning, there are probably 400 college students attending each service. The college pastor has the busiest job of all, and he oversees the campus, and the college mininstries, trips, studies, etc. There are plenty of deacons serving with them, and with all the other aspects of the church. BTW, there is no office called, "deacon," but there are plenty of them, and they are not hard to find. I do not mean this to be an attack on Pastors, but in the bible Elders and Deacons are the "main" leadership you read about in a gathering not the pastor. Well, yes and no. Paul exercised a little extra-local muscle, and asked Timothy to do the same. So you have biblical precedent for a Bishop here. Also, the congregation elected/appointed deacons and elders, so you also have precedent for congregational rule in the NT church as well. As you mention, there is also precedent for elders and deacons to be the main leadership. I look at it this way: Pastors are elders, but not all elders are pastors. If someone is going to pastor the flock, they are going to be out front leading, regardless of the leadership structure of the particular church. If this is too heavily dominated by one man, the members will suffer. Conversely, if one man is shirking his responsibility, and not taking the lead as he should, the members will suffer. We need grace! Every hour, every day. Brent |
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Arthur
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« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2003, 02:38:50 am » |
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For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: If any be blameless...
Ok, this is cool that we're talking about this, now I get to ask a question I've had for sometime:
Was this passage of Paul telling this to Titus only good for that time? I mean, is it only one of the original apostles who can tell another guy like Titus to setup elders in every city on an island?
Are there apostles today? Or is there apostolic ministry as GG touted?
Arthur
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Arthur
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« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2003, 03:39:35 am » |
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I have never seen signs and wonders. I don't know too many who have. Why do you think that is? Do they exist today?
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« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2003, 03:40:04 am » |
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For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: If any be blameless...
Ok, this is cool that we're talking about this, now I get to ask a question I've had for sometime:
Was this passage of Paul telling this to Titus only good for that time? I mean, is it only one of the original apostles who can tell another guy like Titus to setup elders in every city on an island?
Are there apostles today? Or is there apostolic ministry as GG touted?
Arthur
Some people say that elders can only be appointed by an apostle. Who gets to be an apostle? The fact is that THE apostles were 12 in number, 13 if you count Matthias. When one of them died, apart from Judas, there is no record of them electing any more. The bible speaks of THE 12 apostles. I think it is literal. Plenty of people function like Apostles today. We call them missionaries. Some people also function like false apostles, and we call them cult leaders. The passage where Paul tells Titus to appoint elders has to do with establishing order, part of which means having elders. I think it totally applies today, because we want our churches to be orderly. That passage alone shows that at least 2 of the 3 main forms of church government are biblical. Namely that of episcopal and presbyterian.
I am totally loving where the BB is going lately!! Did you guys notice that we aren't being attacked all the time? We are barely talking about the Assembly any more! I am learning things...wow! I guess this BB can be a blessing, eh? Brent |
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Arthur
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« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2003, 03:45:58 am » |
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When one of them died, apart from Judas, there is no record of them electing any more. The bible speaks of THE 12 apostles. I think it is literal.
Yes, that's my take on it. And their names are on the 12 foundations of the city there in Revelation. Plenty of people function like Apostles today. We call them missionaries. Some people also function like false apostles, and we call them cult leaders.
Ah, yeah I can see that. I am totally loving where the BB is going lately!! Did you guys notice that we aren't being attacked all the time? We are barely talking about the Assembly any more! I am learning things...wow! I guess this BB can be a blessing, eh?
Brent
It's great! |
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Peacefulg
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« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2003, 06:37:42 pm » |
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Two things!
1. I thought Paul was an apostle, so technically you would have to have to go with the 13 apostles. And McGov I agree with you regarding connecting signs and wonders with apostles.
2. Joe, you reference that the word angel in Rev 2-3 are pastor/humans, but the greek word use there is aggelo, which is use throughout the bible for "angel" as we know them. This is the second time I have heard angel used this way, but there is no other passage that I have yet to find in Rev. or the rest of the word to back up the word angel being used to describe an actual human being. Just looking to get more info!
Cheers,
George
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