State of the "Ministry"

[BeckyW]

Yes, Tom, I recognize your ministry below as standard assembly fare and misinterpretation/application of scripture. I'm so glad I'm not any longer in a metal chair week after week trying to live off of it.
That's really all that many were equipped to preach, once you set the boundaries of "everything had to be 'to the testimony' ".
Perhaps it's time existing assemblies really applied "It's what you learn after you know it all that really counts".  As in, admit we really didn't know that much at all about true, sound, biblical preaching and teaching of the word.  Then get some (or lots of) outside help to remedy that.
One message preached in the local assembly here not too long ago had to do with Paul's shipwreck in Acts.  The message was, the boat will crash but we'll all be saved.  Translation?  I guess it was "be encouraged and stay here, no matter how bad it looks."

Disclaimer: This post is only my personal opinion.

Becky

[Joe Sperling]

...The men were hungry, AMEN?? And they said Let's make us a stew uh. So they went to find some vegetables uh. But they weren't watchin' what they picked, uh. NO, no, no, They WEREN't watchin' what they picked, uh. You don't just pick anything when you make a stew, uh!!! But they weren't watchin' what they picked, uh. So, they grabbed them some gourdzah. They grabbed them some gourdzah, and they chopped them up real nice, uh. And they made themselves a stewah. But then one of them said "I'm not feelin' very goodah. I'm feelin' really sickah". And they began to shout!! YES, they began to shout real loudah!!!  They is poison in this here stewah!! YES!!! they is poisin in the stewah!! And they'd 'bout all died, but Elisha was there ah. YES!! Elisha was there ah. And he said "Get me some flour ah!!"" Hallelujah!! Elisha was there and said get me some flour ah!!! But this weren't just any old flour ah!! This flour was touched by a prophet ah!!  Touched by a prophet of GAWD ah!! And when he touched the flour and put it in the stew the poison was GONE ah!! Yes it was GONE ah!! Have you eaten some bad stew ah?? I said have you eaten some bad stew ah?? Then put your hand on the TV now ah!! Put your hand on the TV now ah and watch the poison go ah!! I have the flour ah!! And I'm puttin' it in your stew right now ah!!
You been eatin' gourdzah!! I said you been eatin' gourdzah!!! You need to eat some flour ah!! Put your hands on the TV and receive the flour now ah!! Yes, receive the flour and watch the poisin go ah!! This flour is from GAWD ah!! YES!!! it's from GAWD ah!! And I am his spokesman ah!!And I have the Miracle Flour ah!!!

"Thank you dear friends for listening to the Reverend Ben Loomis today, with his message "Gourds, or the Lord ah". For a taped transcript of today's message send a check for $40.00 or more plus your tithe and offering to this ministry today, or simply call 1-800-MIRACLE to make your donation. For an additional $50.00 or more receive a 1 oz. bag of Miracle flour blessed by the Reverend Ben himself. Don't be denied this blessing my friends!!! Call today!!!

[M2]

The passage is taken horribly out of context, and a spiritual communication from God is derived from it in the most capricious manner, at least in the way I have outlined it above....which is not far off from how they are doing it, if they are going to claim that God gave them this message for the ministry's continuance.

Furthermore, to continue a behavior in the face of grave warning, with the attitude of "God will show me if I am wrong,"  borders on tempting God.   I much prefer the attitude of the Bereans who searched the scriptures to see if things were true.  They did not assume that the things were true, plunge headlong into them wearing a safety harness of "God will show us if we are wrong."  No, they remained neutral to the message until they could indeed see that it conincided with the very Word of God.

That is what existing assemblyites must do, but I fear that most of them lack the tools to do so on their own.  (I certainly did.) Have they read any of the articles on the website, or did God show them that it was evil?

Interesting enough, this was not a message that was preached from the pulpit. A sister wrote to me on how the Lord has spoken to her. But it typical of the general attitude of twisting the Scriptures in order to make it fit. Another person (who is out) put it this way:
quote--
In my opinion it is called spin the bible.
Lets see if we can find a bible verse to support what we already want to do.

I don't think it applies because:
1. the person they talked to is Elisha a proven servant of God.
2. the poison came from what an inexperienced lad who accidentally put the gourds in and not from Elisha's ministry.
3. On the contrary it was Elisha's advice with the fine ground wheat of the word (flour) that made the poison go away.
--end-quote

I cannot say that they have not read any of the articles on the website. However, I do know that the website is downplayed as a source of helpful information. I often send posts and website links to my husband and three others who are out and they often appreciate it.

This is the kind of "exposition" we heard weekly in the assemblies.  The problem is that the rule used by sane expositors is that the way you know something from the OT is a type is that it explicitly says so in the NT.

Plymouth Brethren "church truth" is largely based on this type of allegory, and is therefore not all it is cracked up to be.

These folks in Ottawa are not seeing the death removed from the pot, they are still feasting on the corrupt stew.  This is why I have repeatedly told assembly people that they need to open the windows and get some ministry from a healthy church.

Even better, they should stop playing church and get involved in a real one.

Tom, just reading your post gave me goosebumps upon goosebumps. Good thing I was sitting in my comfortable office chair at my computer.

Becky, I am so enjoying your new-found 'critical thinking'.

Joe ah! I was shocked to discover that the TV thing actually works. I tried calling, but I kept getting the busy signal.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[M2]

I wasn't around when the Lord Jesus called the leaders 'you brood of vipers' or when Paul said 'you foolish Galatians'.  Was the Lord &/or Paul angry at the time? Were they angry and bitter? Were they bitter and not angry?  etc.

Marcia

[editor]

I wasn't around when the Lord Jesus called the leaders 'you brood of vipers' or when Paul said 'you foolish Galatians'.  Was the Lord &/or Paul angry at the time? Were they angry and bitter? Were they bitter and not angry?  etc.

Marcia

As we all know, God gets angry.  It is referred to as wrath.  Paul also got angry.

Be angry, and sin not.

The Judaizers were probably not too happy with Paul's criticism of them.  They accused him of all sorts of things, probably bitterness was one of them.  Paul called people like them "Super Apostles."  In this Paul was sarcastic.

Really, it's amazing God used a guy like Paul.  So many were far more qualified.  Paul was just there.

Brent

[M2]

As we all know, God gets angry.  It is referred to as wrath.  Paul also got angry.

Be angry, and sin not.

The Judaizers were probably not too happy with Paul's criticism of them.  They accused him of all sorts of things, probably bitterness was one of them.  Paul called people like them "Super Apostles."  In this Paul was sarcastic.

Really, it's amazing God used a guy like Paul.  So many were far more qualified.  Paul was just there.

Brent

Others have stated that those who 'criticize' existing assemblies and their leaders (ex or present) are bitter and angry. Some have even said that I do not love the saints that are "in".

Thanks Brent.

Marcia

[editor]

I view it like this:

If I have been "following The Lord Jesus Christ," for twenty years, while paying no attention to George Geftakys or his servants during that time, then no one has a right to criticise me.  

Watching seminars on video tape, listening to seminars on audio tape, going to seminars live, none of that has any effect on a person---just because they are listening to George and saying "amen," doesn't mean they are influenced by him.  Right?  I mean, if a person watched that many porn films, over that many years, they wouldn't have a problem with pornography, right?  Think of how many movies that would be!  Interesting way to look at it, eh?

Anyways, back to the topic.  People get upset when they are criticized.  We all do, it is human nature.  However, when the critcism has a ring of truth to it, and the implications are large, there are many people who can't stand the pressure and in order to cope with reality, they must alter their perception of it somewhat.  Shooting the messenger is nothing new, and it is certainly not unique to the Assembly.

It is all so obvious and plain, except to the one who doesn't want to see.

Brent

[M2]

ROM 14:1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
ROM 14:2 One man has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
ROM 14:3 Let not him who eats regard with contempt him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats, for God has accepted him.
ROM 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and stand he will, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

MM's version of Rom 14:1-4:
Now accept the one who twists the Scriptures and believes that God is going to remove the poison from the stew..  ahh ministry.
Let not him who sees clearly that this is wrong, address(judge) another who believes that it is God speaking.
The only time one is to judge another is if the other believes that the assembly is a false religious system.

Marcia

[editor]

ROM 14:1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
ROM 14:2 One man has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
ROM 14:3 Let not him who eats regard with contempt him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats, for God has accepted him.
ROM 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and stand he will, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

MM's version of Rom 14:1-4:
Now accept the one who twists the Scriptures and believes that God is going to remove the poison from the stew..  ahh ministry.
Let not him who sees clearly that this is wrong, address(judge) another who believes that it is God speaking.
The only time one is to judge another is if the other believes that the assembly is a false religious system.

Marcia

Ahh....the sarcasm and absurdity to illustrate your point.  Well done!

On a serious note, I have actually heard someone use this verse as a tool to squelch valid criticism of the Assembly.  The key is "The Faith."  If a person is in The Faith, no matter how weak, we are to receive such a one.  It is a different matter when the difference of opinion is between one who is in The Faith, and another who is bringing another gospel, or teaching sin, etc.

The Judaizers of Galatia had a different opinion than Paul, did they not?

Brent

[M2]

...
On a serious note, I have actually heard someone use this verse as a tool to squelch valid criticism of the Assembly.  The key is "The Faith."  If a person is in The Faith, no matter how weak, we are to receive such a one.  It is a different matter when the difference of opinion is between one who is in The Faith, and another who is bringing another gospel, or teaching sin, etc.

The Judaizers of Galatia had a different opinion than Paul, did they not?

Brent

This is exactly the way a LB used those verses TODAY! He used it to squelch valid criticism of the way the Scriptures are still being twisted in the assembly (as in the case of Elisha's stew below).

As Paul said "You foolish Galatians...".

Marcia

[editor]

This is exactly the way a LB used those verses TODAY! He used it to squelch valid criticism of the way the Scriptures are still being twisted in the assembly (as in the case of Elisha's stew below).

As Paul said "You foolish Galatians...".

Marcia

Yes, Paul received the foolish Galatians, and fought for them, tooth and nail.  However, he utterly rejected and condemned the Judaizers.  My purpose here is to say something that will help those weak, precious sheep trapped in The Assembly get out.  Some of these are leaders, but most are not.

Paul called his Galatian brethren foolish, and so they were.  However, he called the Judaizers accursed false apostles, and wished they would castrate themselves!  I like Paul, and share many of the same sentiments with regard to backyard surgeries on those who would bring God's people into bondage.

Brent

[M2]

Yes, Paul received the foolish Galatians, and fought for them, tooth and nail.  However, he utterly rejected and condemned the Judaizers.  My purpose here is to say something that will help those weak, precious sheep trapped in The Assembly get out.  Some of these are leaders, but most are not.

Paul called his Galatian brethren foolish, and so they were.  However, he called the Judaizers accursed false apostles, and wished they would castrate themselves!  I like Paul, and share many of the same sentiments with regard to backyard surgeries on those who would bring God's people into bondage.

Brent

Brent,

You make an important point here about Paul's stance with the Judaizers. At this point in time, after almost a year, I find it difficult to distinguish between those who are Judaizers and those who aren't. There are only a very few that I make exceptions for.

I do not believe that many of those in existing assemblies have admitted their need to repent from their involvement in promoting Geftakysism. They have made certain changes, and lightened the load, but that is only behavioural change. The real test of repentance comes when a problem arises and how they 'react' and continue to control and manipulate the others to 'do it their way' and to 'preserve the testimony'.

Another question I have is "Why condemn and judge those who are convicted and believe that the assembly is a false religion, but support and justify those who use the Scriptures to support the assembly's continuance?" if they are not to judge those who believe that God has spoken to them from the Scriptures in a particular fashion. This is a double standard.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[Recovering Saint]

Twisted Scriptures

If you don't know the scriptures in their historical context and keep honest to the original meaning of the text when it was given you can be a victim of any brother or sister with a holy voice who misquotes a scripture out of context with the rest or scripture and out of context with its meaning at the time.

Allegorical meanings like the Narnia Chronicles are neat sometimes but beware of those who use this method exclusively. Once they embark down this road then all manner of subjectivity can be introduced.

If they are humble. That’s a big if. Then you can point out problems when they happen but some Assembly leaders have a reputation for being “all mouth and no ears” a CB term I use to describe them. They only broadcast long-winded speeches but are not willing to let anyone reply. They are not interested in what “you’re opinion is” for it is incorrect because they have the mind of the Lord.

Beware of the leaven. A little of GGs leaven has leavened all the Workers and leaders worldwide from Europe and China to North America. Every Assembly has been and STILL IS practicing GGs Priest craft.  Clergy is the leaders, and laity the ordinary brothers and sisters.

You can’t fight city hall. That’s what it is like talking to those in the Assembly who are displaying obvious signs of Georges leaven in their life. You will know them by their fruit. If they were under George’s ministry for any length of time then they are like George. You may as well “Save your breath to cool your porridge”. They talk a good talk but don’t walk the talk. If Jesus spoke to the Pharisees about their indifference to the people why do you think He would accept what the leaders in every Assembly ARE STILL DOING TO THIS VERY DAY. I have a scripture for you. Listen listen. Pay close attention for God is speaking to you.

Isaiah 5: 20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes And clever in their own sight!

[vernecarty]

Twisted Scriptures

If you don't know the scriptures in their historical context and keep honest to the original meaning of the text when it was given you can be a victim of any brother or sister with a holy voice who misquotes a scripture out of context with the rest or scripture and out of context with its meaning at the time.

Allegorical meanings like the Narnia Chronicles are neat sometimes but beware of those who use this method exclusively. Once they embark down this road then all manner of subjectivity can be introduced.

If they are humble. That’s a big if. Then you can point out problems when they happen but some Assembly leaders have a reputation for being “all mouth and no ears” a CB term I use to describe them. They only broadcast long-winded speeches but are not willing to let anyone reply. They are not interested in what “you’re opinion is” for it is incorrect because they have the mind of the Lord.

Beware of the leaven. A little of GGs leaven has leavened all the Workers and leaders worldwide from Europe and China to North America. Every Assembly has been and STILL IS practicing GGs Priest craft.  Clergy is the leaders, and laity the ordinary brothers and sisters.

You can’t fight city hall. That’s what it is like talking to those in the Assembly who are displaying obvious signs of Georges leaven in their life. You will know them by their fruit. If they were under George’s ministry for any length of time then they are like George. You may as well “Save your breath to cool your porridge”. They talk a good talk but don’t walk the talk. If Jesus spoke to the Pharisees about their indifference to the people why do you think He would accept what the leaders in every Assembly ARE STILL DOING TO THIS VERY DAY. I have a scripture for you. Listen listen. Pay close attention for God is speaking to you.

Isaiah 5: 20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes And clever in their own sight!

Recovering Saint you throw a hard punch. Man even I feel a ltittle convicted reading what you state about the sad priest-craft of George Geftakys. I sometimes feel that like Peter I need a thorough cleansing from the defilement of that era. It is particularly remarkable that any and everyone associated with that fiasco has not girded up their loins and literally ran for their very lives. There is something startling and deeply menacing about the fact that there are still those embracing this darkness. I know that there is in each of us a certain amount of resistance to God's ways that He gently, and sometimes forcefully deals with all our spiritual lives as He comforms us to the image of His dear Son. Some of the things I see in people considering themselves religious confirms in my thinking the Biblical teaching of vessels fitted for destruction...no other model provides satisfactory account. Such people ought to be left alone...
Verne

[d3z]

I do not believe that many of those in existing assemblies have admitted their need to repent from their involvement in promoting Geftakysism.

I think there are many who are "out" who still haven't done this.  This is especially true in places where the assemblies stopped meeting.  They may be going to other churches, but they still hold the assembly mindset.  Possibly they are trying, or even just wish the new church was more like the assembly.