It wasn't all that bad... I want to go back

[Arthur]

Ahh, Arthur!

A masterful display of using the scriptures to malign worldly Christians, and drive us on by guilt and obligation.

Arthur, I think you have totally grasped the nature of my thread!

If anyone was wondering, the purpose of this thread was threefold:

1.) To take attention off of another thread
2.) To "head off at the pass" a theme that I perceived (note the word perceived) cropping up, that being that the Assembly was really good, and only certain aspects of GG was "bad."
3.) To illustrate, using absurdity, how we have degenerated into Democrats and Republicans in the way we argue with and oppose one another, and don't actually read and understand what people are trying to say.  

I also had a good bit of fun with this, which I needed.  

Shall we make an attempt at edifying conversation today?

Thanks for the last paragraph Arthur.

Brent

Ah Bernt!

Yes, your badinage was quite revivifying.  Democrats and Republicans indeed!  lol  

Regarding my message. I was "throwing down the gauntlet", so to speak.

If you noticed by the   and , I wrote what I did with some jest and yet some sorrow.  

On the one hand, we know that much of what I quoted was used against us by evil men such as George.  On the other hand, there is some truth to it--obviously to the scripture itself.   Thus this is a challenge to any and all (particularly you Brent) to disprove these statements or rather show the real truth of them instead of how they were used against us to adhere us to George and the assembly.
In doing so, I believe that answers to questions that still haunt many may be obtained.  I found your thread to be the perfect segway.  

Let me be honest--I still wonder about these things myself to one degree or another.  As I was writing some(not all) of them, I felt and remembered the inspiration behind them.  And...it wasn't bondage--at least that's not what it meant to me--but conviction and a mission that I could believe in and know of a certainty that it is true and good and noble.  But now, since the name Geftakys is associated with it and we suppose that they derived from him, we have no firm conviction and are left with confusion and an empty shell of vague understanding, and we always have to second-guess ourselves for fear that our thinking might be Assembly-influenced.  
Do you understand?  I doubt I'm the only one who is having this problem.

Let me put it another way.  The reason why I did what I did in the assembly was because of my belief and conviction that the preeminence of Christ and the immediacy of the Word of God superceded all else!  In other words, the scripture makes some heavy statements totally contrary to the way we normally think, particularly in regards to our devotion to our redeemer and master--Jesus Christ.  It seemed reasonable to abandon my normal--call it carnal, self-serving-- reasoning to obey God, if I was going to claim that I believed in Him and be his follower.  

     Of course, to have that conviction skewed to the point where I was following George was an atrocity.  I cannot say that I set out to consciously, willfully give allegiance to George over giving alleigiance to Christ.  It may have crept in on me through time, though, I wouldn't argue, given the deceptive nature of the ministry, but in my heart of hearts it was always for Jesus not George, that I panted for.
     In other words, the reason why I preached Christ on campus was because the Bible said so.  The reason why I went to a prayer meeting was because the Bible said so.  The reason why I worshipped God was because the Bible said so (and because I loved Jesus  The reason why I studied, mediated upon and shared what I learned from reading the Bible is because the Bible said so.  The reason why I submitted to the leadership is because the Bible said so.  The reason why I left all to follow Jesus is because the Bible said so.  etc.

Ah, but then there is the milieu control, coersive persuasion, deceptions, and other cult-like characteristics.  

But let me ask you, can you tell me that I did what I did because of George?  Is George greater than God?  Is George's word greater than God's?

Definitely we should abandon George, but God and his Word?


...some thoughts  
Arthur

[editor]

Quote from Arthur:

But let me ask you, can you tell me that I did what I did because of George?  Is George greater than God?  Is George's word greater than God's?

Definitely we should abandon George, but God and his Word?


...some thoughts  
Arthur

Hey Arthur!

In no way should we abandon God and His Word.  I know you know the answer, and I know that you are not wrestling with this choice yourself, but sadly, many are.  Even more tragically, people have taken this test and decided to reject God.

The confusion comes from an improper understanding of God's Word.  

Should we look at it like a law to obey?  Do this, don't do that, etc.

Or should we look at it from  the perspective of Grace?  Christ has fulfilled the law, and our righteousness is apart from the law.

The latter perspective frees us from judging music, amount of outreach, bible knowledge, etc.  Furthermore, when we realize that nothing can condemn, and nothing can seperate (Romans the joy and freedom that comes from this makes me want to study, share and worship all the more.

Unfortunately, we were methodicall taught to approach the Bible from a law/performance based attitude, which was on steroids!

Do I want to go back?  Nope.  

But hopefully, we can stop misquoting, reacting and getting combative about every issue!

Brent

[glossyibis]

YOU FORGOT THE STANLEY CUP PLAYOFFS IN YOUR MENU .
GO DUCKS         STEVE HARRIS

[Arthur]

The confusion comes from an improper understanding of God's Word.  

Should we look at it like a law to obey?  Do this, don't do that, etc.

Or should we look at it from  the perspective of Grace?  Christ has fulfilled the law, and our righteousness is apart from the law.

The latter perspective frees us from judging music, amount of outreach, bible knowledge, etc.  Furthermore, when we realize that nothing can condemn, and nothing can seperate (Romans the joy and freedom that comes from this makes me want to study, share and worship all the more.

Yes, I believe that's it, Brent.  One more item that could have been added to my list and indeed should be added is--"above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfectness."  This is the one thing that everything in my list of assembly teachings lacked, yet it is the most necessary.  In considering the problems in the assembly teachings and attitudes, the glaring summation is--condemnation of others and pride in oneself.  What more opposite than what we really long for -- Jesus, who was meek and lowly in heart.  

"Other Christians aren't like this."  "Many believers don't do that as they should."  "If you want to be truly faithful, you really should be doing this."  etc.  
If you read between the lines do you see the love of Jesus?  Rather you see the arrogance of George.  So sad that we ever would go along with it.  Would we all agree now?  

Thank you for the reminder, Brent.

Arthur


Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;  Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.  And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.  And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

[Arthur]

Arthur, George Geftakys understood this longing of the soul perfectly. His pre-meditation in taking the purest of desire and devotion, and with reckless spiritual criminality and malice of forethought defiling the sanctuary is what I believe designates him for ultimate condemnation. You must understand it is the inner struggle of many, to try and fathom how things could have gone so wrong despite what they know in their own hearts were the best of intentions.
This is an aspect to what George has done that I believe is completely missed by many who blithely retort - "We all sin".
There is a sin unto death...
Verne

Verne, thank you, thank you.  That is an excellent way of putting it and helps order some thoughts of mine.  It makes me want to cry, though.  So sad isn't it?  

Because you see what it does---

A man wants to do good.  Wants to have a purpose in life.  Wants his life to mean something and be valuable.

The Bible indeed does have the answer to all of our questions and is the light by which we may live that purposeful life that God has planned for us.  A man's aspirations guided properly by the Word of God could result in a beautiful thing.
But here comes George, using both the Bible and our aspirations for his own despicable means.  He twists the path, clouds the light, and through his machinations creates phantasms in our mind causing confusion, doubt and despair.

Now we are free from his direct influence--but are we free from the legacy he left within us?  The dark cloud still swirls in violent, mirky storms.  The thought, "I had good aspirations and a noble cause--but was it really?  I did, but I was deceived?  Well if that wasn't the right thing to do, what is?!"  Go the thoughts of one so infected.  

Yet I believe that Jesus can set us on the straight and narrow once again.  He will light our paths.  Patience is required--I guess.

And yes, I believe George will pay.  

Arthur

[David Mauldin]

Sorry I really do think that the people who stay are very vaery week hurting people who choose ignorance over truth.

[David Mauldin]

The "good" experiences in the assembly were for the most part unique to a cult.  The "family" atmosphere, the security of "home" "Dad" etc.... Any healthy American knows that he or she needs to learn independence from their family. No matter how difficult it feels. Yet other experiences, the idealisms of spirituality over materialsm, the moral right over the wrong, these are not unique to a cult.  These I have found outside of the assembly.  I have experienced the joys and freedoms of serving and loving my neighbor in volunteer work and I am leaving for the "Peace Corps" this next year.   Don't let the bad experiences of the assembly cloud your vision for LIFE!!!

[Heide]

Oh Eulaha and Arthur,

I can hear it now "Sister, could you put away your shiny pink headcovering, You are distracting the brethren..."

It's time to go back? But I just learned how to be independent and make my own choices and stand up for myself without the interference of Leading Brothers. I just discovered that I can go buy stuff without having to justify why I did it. And I just found out that I can go scuba diving on Sunday and it's ok.... I don't wanna go back.....

Heide

[Mark C.]

It wasn't all that bad?
  I wish I could figure out the quote thing as I would quote the statement Verne made re. how GG manipulated those under his control.  Verne's statement was the clearest and most succinct definition of GG's sin to date!
  I had the same response as Arthur's to this quote of Verne's and that was a mixture of deep insight into GG's methods and personal grief in response to what it revealed.
  Others have mentioned (and apparently it needs to be said continually) that many were alarmed at GG teaching and practices long before his excommunication.
  If you were to pinpoint the "root" of all Assembly sins and the reason there are those who call it "cult like" it seems that Verne's paragraph hits the nail on the head.  The adultery and support of Dave's abuse were only symptoms of a greater evil.

  Do we all sin?  Yes, without question.
 
   But, do we all sin like GG did?
 
Have we taken the place of mastery over another believer's soul?
Do we say we have the key of knowledge for entrance to God's presence/kingdom/Heaven/etc. and make loyalty to our ministry as the means to entering same?
Do we reject entreaty and then savagely attack those who dare to approach us humbly?
When we are caught in sin do we deny it, refuse to repent, and blame it all on "persecution"?

  All churches will have problems with sin for they are filled with sinners.  Perfection is not the issue, but are we humble in the admission and repentance from that sin?  GG was above entreaty and this led to the sin of the devil, which is pride.
  Do I want to go back?  I would like to go back in time and shout these things at the top of my lungs at the very first seminar GG gave!
                           God Bless,  Mark
 

[Arthur]

 I wish I could figure out the quote thing as I would quote the

Just click on the quote button?
If you want only a snipet, just remember that anything between the "{quote}" and "{/quote}" tags will appear as a quote.  (note, I used curly braces {} instead of brackets [], otherwise you wouldn't be able to see the text.)

 Do we all sin?  Yes, without question.
 
   But, do we all sin like GG did?
 
Have we taken the place of mastery over another believer's soul?
Do we say we have the key of knowledge for entrance to God's presence/kingdom/Heaven/etc. and make loyalty to our ministry as the means to entering same?
Do we reject entreaty and then savagely attack those who dare to approach us humbly?
When we are caught in sin do we deny it, refuse to repent, and blame it all on "persecution"?

  All churches will have problems with sin for they are filled with sinners.  Perfection is not the issue, but are we humble in the admission and repentance from that sin?  GG was above entreaty and this led to the sin of the devil, which is pride.

Yes, that's it.  So clear is it now that there is difference--as different as the disciples from the pharisees.  
In one sense, I'm glad that I learned this distinction (albeit, the hard way.  

On a similar note,  
     George wanted us to believe that what was good and normal is for leaders to be authoritarian and look good on the outside by doing stupendous deeds of preaching and missionary journeys.  But what of mercy, humility, and love?  I'm still scratching my head at how it was that I came to accept George's portrayal of a righteous man as accurate, when those basic Christian tenets were lacking.  Could anyone look at George and say, "This man is a humble and loving and gentle like Jesus"?  
     I don't think I did entirely accept it, at least not down in my heart.  It was that pea under the mattresses (sometimes more like a boulder)--no doubt that was the Holy Spirit saying, "Wake up and smell the hypocrisy!".  But the ministry as a whole still seemed to be doing the will of God (i.e. reaching the lost, lives lived in devotion to God, etc.)
     Sure, we could say, "George is a godly man."  But we couldn't honestly say that he's meak and lowly in heart.   Now that just doesn't make any sense.  Then what was our definition of a "godly" man?  Didn't that just cause some red flags to go up?  Oh, but being meak wouldn't be overcoming--oh yeah, that's it.

 Do I want to go back?  I would like to go back in time and shout these things at the top of my lungs at the very first seminar GG gave!
           

And you would be promptly escorted out the door. No?
I actually thought about doing that when I lived in Fullerton, but I thought, "Who would listen to me?"   Arg, painful memories.

[Joe Sperling]

Arthur---

I'm a bit stupid. When you want to highlight a "quote"
someone has made, do you click on the "quote" button
and then highlight only the area you want to reply to?
Or do you have to use brackets or quote marks? Can
you explain?  I'm a little thick.

Thanks,  Joe

[sfortescue]

 I wish I could figure out the quote thing as I would quote the

Just click on the quote button?
If you want only a snipet, just remember that anything between the "{quote}" and "{/quote}" tags will appear as a quote.  (note, I used curly braces {} instead of brackets[[]], otherwise you wouldn't be able to see the text.)

To make brackets appear, just double them: [[[

]]] for [

], and [[[

]]] for [

],
but for some reason the BB software seems to malfunction when [[[

]]] and [[[

]]] aren't paired.
It should be ignoring them, since they are doubled.When you click on the quote button, the entire text appears in the edit box between [

] and [

].  Delete parts that you don't want.  If you want it split into two quote boxes, put [[/quote]] [

] at the place where you want it split.

If the text is lengthy, I usually cut and paste from the edit box into Notepad, then edit it there where I have a bigger edit window, then copy and paste it back into the edit box.

[Arthur]

[To make brackets appear, just double them: [[[

]]] for [

], and [[[

]]] for [

],

There you have it.  

[

]  [

] --  thought it might be something like that.  In C programming you put a "\" before something to indicate an escape sequence.  
Thanks Steve.

[sfortescue]

I had to figure it out empirically, since I couldn't find it in the HTML book.  HTML uses angle brackets <> instead, but other than that difference, the BB is supposed to use some sort of subset of HTML.

[Arthur]

Arthur---

I'm a bit stupid. When you want to highlight a "quote"
someone has made, do you click on the "quote" button
and then highlight only the area you want to reply to?
Or do you have to use brackets or quote marks? Can
you explain?  I'm a little thick.

Thanks,  Joe

When you say "highlight a quote" do you mean to make it bold?
I don't know if that is possible.  
Or if by "highlight a quote" you mean to only quote one line and cut out the rest, then yes you hit the quote button and then delete the text that you don't want, leaving the line that you want inbetween the
[

] and [

].
Or if by "highlight a quote" you mean quote a post in its entirety, then yes, you just need to hit the quote button.  And then type your comments AFTER the ending quote tag.  

In other words, when you are composing a new post, anything that appears between [

] and [

] tags will appear in the light blue as a quote in your post once you've posted it.

Do some experimenting and you'll see.  (You can use the Preview button to see your post before you post.)

I hope that answers your question.