the power of communication

[brian]

i have been accused on occasion of enabeling people to publicly lie about others by keeping this bb on the internet. others have thanked me for enabeling people to tell the truth publicly. the fact is, a bb can only enable people to communicate. whether they communicate in an open, reasonable, honest, constructive way or malicious, underhanded, deceitful, destructive way is not something that can be so easily controlled. for me, a bb is about removing controls and levelling the playing field, not adding controls and putting new people in power. a bb is about community, and there are certain basic groundrules that are necessary for a community to exist. this is why every society has its laws, and every culture has its taboos.

an issue that has come up here a few times is what to do when a member of our little online community is posting the express belief that this community should no longer exist. those who are mature, upon reaching this conclusion, simply leave. those who are immature, upon reaching this conclusion, begin posting in a manner designed to tear apart this community. people join a community because it is serving a useful purpose for them - most of the time. in order for a community to survive, it cannot welcome members into itself that do not believe it should exist - i think that should be pretty obvious. i think this community could serve some very useful purposes, such as reconnecting with old friends, discussing faith and comparing life perspectives in order to grow in understanding, and so forth. i have observed that something that has prevented this process from taking place is the tolerance of members who want to prevent this process from occuring on our bb.

so now i am asking openly, to all of you who have been a part of this community, should those who do not wish this bb to exist, but who persist in destructive posting patterns rather then simply leaving, have their accounts removed? is that not a fair and reasonable stance? i'm not talking about those who observe the destructive posting of others, get sick of it, and leave, but those who have openly stated that they want to see the board come to an end, and they persist in posting in a manner designed to prevent profitable discussion or other positive uses of this online community.

let me know what you all think about this topic.

[Mark Kisla]

Brian,
I agree with you.

[Oscar]

In a free society, where all are equal under the law, individuals have the right to determine their own behavior.

They do not have the right to determine other's behavior.

If a person wishes this BB to close down, he/she is free to cease participating.  But...NOT free to harrangue (sp?) others about why they should not participate.

So...if I were the moderator I would invite those who wish to close this BB to "get lost".

Thomas Maddux

[Matt]

an issue that has come up here a few times is what to do when a member of our little online community is posting the express belief that this community should no longer exist.

Oh, my, that's horrible. Somebody said that they didn't want the bb to continue to exist? Who in the world said that?! Personally, I believe that the bb isn't honoring Christ. The Bible is very specific about rebuking and accusing Christian brothers and sisters in front of unbelievers - and this bb is not limited to the saved. This is in addition to the backbiting that has taken place of people that aren't here to defend themselves (like Mark C. and Arthur did to the Luke and Paul R and affirming). My intention isn't for the bb to go away - it's for it to become Christ-honoring. I understand that I have not been Christ-honoring in all my posts - really very few people have on this bb. But a good place to start is to stop accusing our Christians brothers (the LB's for instance) of exploiting or abusing anybody in front of unbelievers. This bb isn't the place for that Biblically.

i think this community could serve some very useful purposes, such as reconnecting with old friends, discussing faith and comparing life perspectives in order to grow in understanding, and so forth. i have observed that something that has prevented this process from taking place is the tolerance of members who want to prevent this process from occuring on our bb.

Who was trying to stop people from "reconnecting with old friends""?!?! Comparing life perspectives, by the way, means hearing what everybody has to say - not just the ones who agree with you. I haven't really discussed faith issues, but shame on whomever was trying to stop people from talking about faith!

Brian, would you mind if I asked you a few questions. Are you walking with the Lord? I've never seen you talk about Him or talk about any scripture - so I don't know where exactly you stand.

In a free society, where all are equal under the law, individuals have the right to determine their own behavior.

They do not have the right to determine other's behavior.

So how come you said that every LB exploited and abused the saints if you don't have the right to determine other's behavior?

So...if I were the moderator I would invite those who wish to close this BB to "get lost".

Thomas Maddux

Such a Godly perspective, Mr. Maddux. God would never tell a believer to "get lost." You publically accused LB's in a setting before unbelievers - that's un-Biblical as well. I pray for you, Mr. Maddux. God will never tell you to get lost, sir, He loves you very much.

- Matt

[Mark Kisla]

"Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it....But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom."
                              Charles Hadden Spurgeon

[sfortescue]

Brian, it is a fair and reasonable stance.

(This feels a little too much like "The Weakest Link" TV game show.)

[Joe Sperling]

I made a mistake when I said I wasn't going to post anymore on the BB. I did it emotionally, through disgust,
and it wasn't a matter of really "thinking things through" or
even praying about it. But I will try not to post concerning these things after this last admission.

I've seen a lot of the posts lately and really don't even know what to say about them any more. I realize that Matt had a "good" experience in San Diego in that Assembly, and deeply respects the leading Brothers there, especially as he mentioned, Bob Starr. Just a short analogy, but if someone were to start telling me that Disneyworld was a wretched place and therefore all other Disney places must be wretched too, I'd have to argue with them, having been to Disneyland and knowing it's actually quite a nice place.
I know it's a real stretch to compare the Assemblies to Disneyland, but I think you get my point.

Matt had a great experience in San Diego, having gone there since his salvation in 2000. Perhaps because of that he wasn't aware of the huge amount of abuse that has taken place especially in Fullerton and San Luis Obispo. It will be hard for him to accept the abuse we speak of, just as it is hard for us to believe that everything was a "blessing" where he was. The Assembly I knew back in the time I was there---1974-1980 was far from being a "good" place. There was a lot of abuse. The effects of it lasted with me for years as it has with others, some more, and some less.

Speaking completely from my own experience it was a place I could easily have left, yet the fear from the teachings kept me in place. I left twice and returned, the fear and the feeling that I had let the Lord down gnawing at me. The thought that somehow I had left God's "blessed place" and there was no other--I had left "God's best" for me.

This is going to sound so strange--but I stayed there, even though I knew in my heart there was something wrong with George's teaching. I was never fed by his ministry--I would read other "spiritual books" to try to find the Lord's kind voice. I was fed by others through their kindness, but George's mysterious seminars, and taped messages were man-made and empty(at least to me---perhaps I wasn't "spiritual" enough yet--not having done the "Cycle of Devotion" the required amount of times yet to hit that Spritual plateau of heavenly awareness--this was called "The Heavenly Ladder" later I believe).

I remember once inviting a sister who was so joyfyul--she believed in the Spriritual gifts(which to me doesn't matter one way or the other now)--but she was just so filled with the Lord and happy. We invited her to a "Tape Study" and all through George's message I wished I could make her leave and get out of there!! I felt she was going to be corrupted somehow form her simplicity and joy.(it's amazing when you read Galatians how this so fits into place). I often felt this---it shows how screwed up I was---I felt I couldn't leave--but I didn't want anyone to join and have to go through what I was going through.

Even when someone new would come out I would think "Everything is great now, but wait until they move into a brothers house and see what REALLY goes on". MY experience with the Assembly was one of legalism and confinement, of a man-made way to become "spiritual" replacing the real work of the Spirit. Was the Lord there? Yes--of course he was. The Lord won't abandon us--he did what he could in such a legalistic place. A few people got saved, and there was spiritual growth----but it was so stunted from what it could have been, because we were all trying to do the Holy Spirit's work for him.

This was my experience. This may not have been Matt's. I really don't know. But I do know that it seems the same pattern continued in Fullerton up to George's excommunication, with many lives hurt, and with many people abused. Could there have been "good" that took
place in the Assembly? Of course---the Lord was there doing all that he could to comfort the wounded sheep. Could there have been an Assembly like San Diego that escaped this, especially in the later years?? I think it's very possible, if they weren't under the thumb of George, and somehow were able to work independent of him.

All I can go by is my own experience, and the testimonies of others who went through the same kinds of things. For anyone to question that or try to refute that would be very unwise if they had never been there. And I also see that I have no right to try to refute the testimony of someone from San Diego who claims his experience was "uplifting"--
he alone would know.

All I do know is that I am still waiting for George Geftakys to repent of his sins and publicly take responsibility for the people he has hurt. As long as he remains unrepentant the foregone conclusion is that he is a false shepherd who cares not for the sheep. When Nathan came to David and told him the story of the rich man who took the poor man's only sheep David immediately said the man should be put to death. When Nathan said "You're the man!!" David immediately began to repent--that story drove the point home to him, because David was once a shepherd.

One could never say that David didn't care for the sheep of
Israel. But George had been warned, was excommunicated, and after several months has shown no desire to repent---knowing full well that the sheep are scattering. He had a decision: Bow the knee or see the sheep scatter. We all know now what his choice was.

This is of course, "my opinion". I'm going to stick to other types of threads from now on. I have to admit, I love to be able to come and post here on the BB--I apologize to anyone I may have offended in the past with any "rash" posts I may have made at the moment.

take care, and God bless,  Joe

[Arthur]

I've seen a lot of the posts lately and really don't even know what to say about them any more. I realize that Matt had a "good" experience in San Diego in that Assembly, and deeply respects the leading Brothers there, especially as he mentioned, Bob Starr. Just a short analogy, but if someone were to start telling me that Disneyworld was a wretched place and therefore all other Disney places must be wretched too, I'd have to argue with them, having been to Disneyland and knowing it's actually quite a nice place.
I know it's a real stretch to compare the Assemblies to Disneyland, but I think you get my point.

That's a good point Joe.  Let's take it further to what is actually going on here now.

I, too, would argue that Disneyland is not so bad from my experiences.  But if there was a BB comprised of former Disneyland employees, and on that BB the employees were sharing stories about how they were abused by the Disneyland system, about how there were many pedophiles and homosexuals working at Disneyland(I have actually heard this) and other such evils, I would not be so quick to jump on that BB and say "You all don't know what you're talking about, Disneyland is the happiest place on earth!"
If there was overwhelming evidence brought forth about the corruption of the entire Disney corporation, I would not be upholding it in the slightest!  How stupid it would be for me to do that, wouldn't it?

Arthur

[Matt]

I've seen a lot of the posts lately and really don't even know what to say about them any more. I realize that Matt had a "good" experience in San Diego in that Assembly, and deeply respects the leading Brothers there, especially as he mentioned, Bob Starr. Just a short analogy, but if someone were to start telling me that Disneyworld was a wretched place and therefore all other Disney places must be wretched too, I'd have to argue with them, having been to Disneyland and knowing it's actually quite a nice place.
I know it's a real stretch to compare the Assemblies to Disneyland, but I think you get my point.

Matt had a great experience in San Diego, having gone there since his salvation in 2000. Perhaps because of that he wasn't aware of the huge amount of abuse that has taken place especially in Fullerton and San Luis Obispo. It will be hard for him to accept the abuse we speak of, just as it is hard for us to believe that everything was a "blessing" where he was. The Assembly I knew back in the time I was there---1974-1980 was far from being a "good" place. There was a lot of abuse. The effects of it lasted with me for years as it has with others, some more, and some less.

Yes, Joe, but there were far more assemblies than just San Luis Obispo, Fullerton and San Fernando Valley. We can't judge other assemblies by what happened at a few, and we can't say the LB's of other assemblies are responsible for not knowing what happened at these 3 assemblies.

[Joe Sperling]

Matt--

Sorry if you misunderstood me. I was actually saying
what you just posted. I was saying I don't know what
happened in San Diego, therefore I can't comment on it--all I know is what happened in my own experience, and the testimonies that others give.

Oh well, I'll leave it at that.

take care, and God bless you,  Joe

[Arthur]

Yes, Joe, but there were far more assemblies than just San Luis Obispo, Fullerton and San Fernando Valley. We can't judge other assemblies by what happened at a few, and we can't say the LB's of other assemblies are responsible for not knowing what happened at these 3 assemblies.

And evidence has been brought forth on those as well.  If the issue is about the level of responsibility that leading brothers had, let's ask a few questions:

1.  Ultimately, when is comes right down to it, would any man become a leading brother if George disapproved?
 
2.  Was every leading brother approved by George?

3.   If a man did not receive direct approval from George, did he receive it from another man who was directly approved by George?

4.  Did the leading brother ever send or know about the sending of money to Fullerton without knowing what it would be used for?

5.  Did the leading brother ever hear false teaching taught at the seminars, in sermons on tape, or by any other means of conveyance and then did not refute George to his face and refute the false teaching before the flock that it was his duty to protect?

6.  Did the leading brother ever hear of or witness personally George or other leaders in the ministry spiritually abuse one of the sheep, and yet do nothing about it?

I'm sure there are more questions, please feel free to contribute.  

Arthur

[al Hartman]

[shadow=red,left,300]THERE IS NONE SO BLIND AS THE ONE WHO WILL NOT (REFUSES TO) SEE.

Spoken of others or spoken of  me?[/shadow][/size]

[sfortescue]

Matt Peeling! - - - You ARE - - the weakest link!

GOOD bye!

[Oscar]

Reading exchanges of posts between Matt Peeling and others reminded me that there are people all over America that believe that O.J. was innocent.

Thomas Maddux