Open your mind!

[David Mauldin]

Look around, smell the coffee!!!  Could a "Personal Loving Intimite God" as many of  you profess really allow you to be decieved?  What we went through in the assembly is "Life Lessons" just as everyone else in the world goes through!  But don't let these bad experiences discourage you!  Yes there is such a thing as truth and justice our humanity demands us to live for it. Listen to U2 Read good  literature!  Ask questions, evaluate, compare what you have learned with others!Get out of yourselves your 2 x 4 world and talk with other people!  love, care and give to our fellow creation. If you are interested in discussion E-mail me!  Teachdkm@netscape.net

[Oscar]

David,

Here you are again with your poorly informed criticisms of Christianity.

Your rhetorical question, "Could a "Personal Loving Intimate God" as many of  you profess, really allow you to be decieved? " This is really a truth claim.

Restated, you could put it this way:

Former members of the Assembly system admit to having been decieved.

A personal, loving, intimate God would not allow people to be decieved.

Therefore, a personal, loving, intimate God does not exist.

(If I am mistating your position, please correct me)

The problem with this your second premise.  You are assuming that God does not allow people any freedom.  To be free to know truth, we must be free to know error.  To be free to love, we must be free to not love.  And so on.

David, you really need to work on your athiesm.  You are not very good at it.

Here is a question for you.  

In a universe in which everything can be explained by the interactions of matter and energy according to natural laws, all human thought is produced by the electro-chemical state of the brain.  Although quantum indeterminacy is valid for individual particles, in an organ the size of the human brain there are quadrillions of particles. Quantum entities conform to the laws of statistical probability, and therefore in large numbers behave probabilistically.  With such numbers probability constitutes virtual determinism.   That is why your brain is not jumping out of your head and around the room.
So...how do you know that all you think is anything more than the current electromagnetic state of your brain?

In other words, David, how do you know it is possible to NOT be decieved about reality?  Or, to think at all?

Now I have another question for you.  I have asked you this in several forms since you began posting these "questions".  You say that our humanity demands truth and justice. Of course, if our thoughts are determined we cannot know truth, only our current electrochemical state, so I will focus on justice.

Justice is a religious concept demanding a transcendental lawgiver.  Human history is mostly a story of INjustice.  It is not possible to demonstrate that it is innate to humanity.

(also, the Empericist philosophers behind materialism denied the existence of innate ideas.)

So, what is justice, and why should we care about it?

Thomas Maddux  (who HAS smelled the coffee)

[David Mauldin]

Yes the God that you claim to know so intimitly would not morally allow you to be so wickedly deceived. This is not due to his "allowing us freedom" The truth is that any loving personal God would have told his "lover" "This is a scam! get out!" (I for one want no part of a God who gives me such "freedom!") But instead millions of well meaning people have fallen for religious scams throughout history. Its easy for you to point to the Mormon and say "He was decieved because his defenition of God was off!"  Tom I realize that it is very difficult to come to these conclusions but the fact is the significance we discover in life has to be our own. Recently I watched The Matrix!  Wow! I believe that Neo had to really struggle when he realized it was all a sham.  The truth is so are you/we all at one time. Why does justice require a trancedant lawgiver? Why is it so hard to imagine that the universe itself came together and we are what we are? When I look at humanity I see something worth my love and protection, it is inate within me and this is enough of a reason.  Why don't I choose "Christianity" as a medium of love? In the traditional (Our generations defenitions of Christ teachings) sence this is not love, but a remnant of the aristocratic methods of controle and abuse. True love is as you proffess unconditional but also embracing and affirming all humanity as equally valid! Hey Starbucks is the best! What I love about the freedom I have now is that I am free to investigate everything myself. I just read "The Teachings of Don Juan" by Carlos Castenates. Ever read it ? What do you thinK? Lets talk!

[Joe Sperling]

David---

I think God will let you be deceived--I think he'll let you fall flat on your face if it will serve a purpose in bringing you closer to himself. There is a verse in the Bible that speaks
of "The God of all comfort"--the verse says he comforts us with the result that we become a comfort to others.

If going through a legalistic system is a way to make you flee forever into the arms of Christ, I think God will use it.
Some of us are geared towards legalism--we love rules, and commands to follow. If God puts us(or allows us to drift into) a place where we learn that we cannot possibly keep all of these commands and rules, and suffer terribly under them, we learn to run into the arms of Grace, never to return to that system again. And as a result we learn to comfort those who are in the same thing or are escaping it.

We do have free will, and God will let us do as we please, but I feel with Christians he always has his hand in that situation, and will eventually let us hit rock bottom if needed to bring us again to himself. God is love.

take care,  Joe

[Oscar]

David wrote,

"Why does justice require a trancedant lawgiver?"

The answer David, is quite simple.  If there aren't any rules, you can't break them.

In an atheist's universe everything, including human thought, has evolved by natural processes from hydrogen atoms.   Just what does a hydrogen atom have to say about justice? Nothing I know of.

When atheists talk about justice, they usually mean one of two things:
a. They mean equal administration of legal standards.  The problem with this is that laws can be unjust!  For example, the Jim Crow laws of recent history, or the anti-Jewish laws of the Nazis.  The Nazis did nothing illegal, they just wrote their ideas into law.  But...were they just?

If one says that they were unjust, one must appeal to a higher law, beyond human tampering.  But whose standard would that be?  Where would it come from in a universe of evolved hydrogen?

b. Which brings us to the second thing.  They frequently use the ideas currently popular among themselves.  "Everyone knows that X is unjust."  This type of statement is merely a description of popular opinion among a select group.  It does absolutely nothing to establish objective standards of justice.

In fact, it is a good example of the logical fallacy of Argumentum Ad Populum.


So, no transcendent lawgiver...no justice.

More on the way.

Thomas Maddux

[Oscar]

David wrote,

"Yes the God that you claim to know so intimitly would not morally allow you to be so wickedly deceived."

David this statement has few problems.

1.  All you have done here is to repeat your previous assertion in a different form.  Repeating an assertion does nothing to establish its validity.  You have to give an argument  to demonstrate the truthfullness of the assertion.

So, how do you know what you said is true?

2.  Just exactly how do you know what a non-existent being would or would not do?  

Wouldn't it seem a little odd to you if someone said, "Billy doesn't exist, but if he did he would never do thus and so"?
essentially, that is what you are doing.  Just substitute "God" for Billy.

David, just how would a being that is omnicient and omnibenevolent think?  What would he do?  
You seem to think that he thinks exactly as you do.  (Genesis 3:5?)

Dave, I suspect that what you are doing is just reflecting the opinions of the people you currently identify with and calling them moral values.

Moral values in an atheistic universe have the same problem ideas of justice have.  There is no one to decide what is moral.

Now, you have claimed that moral values are "innate".

But what about this situation:
A says abortion is wrong because it takes the life of the baby.
B says abortion is ok because a woman has the right to control what happens to her own body.

So, why aren't these two people reflecting their "innate" morality and agreeing one way or the other?

Are they both right?  Is one wrong and the other right?

Both are claiming moral justification for their position.  Where does on go to find out what is obectively moral?

Atheism cannot answer this.  Therefore, when atheists talk about morality, their morality cannot rise above the level of personal preference.

This is horrible!   I don't like turnips and I don't like what Hitler did to the Jews are statements of equal importance, since all they are is my personal preferences.  It makes Hitler and Mother Theresa moral equals.  

David, you claim that you were duped in the assembly but now you have seen the light.  Are you sure about that?

Thomas Maddux

[Oscar]

David wrote, "Why is it so hard to imagine that the universe itself came together and we are what we are?"

Well Dave,  that we are what we are goes without saying.  So I won't say.

As to your other question, I can say  a little more about that.  The answer is, because of modern physics and astronomy, plus the new scientific field of cosmology.

In the 18th and 19th centuries the idea was current that the universe was eternal.  Ideas of evolution flourished in this environment.  After all, with infinite time for infinite chance to work, anything that can happen has already happened.

Albert Einstein, Edwin Hubble, George LeMaitre, Arno Penzias, Stephen Hawking and many others working throughout the 20th Century killed that idea.

In a universe ruled by general relativity all matter, energy, space and time began as a singularity at a finite time in the past.  So in answer to your question, "Why is it so hard to imagine that the universe itself came together..."?

It is hard to imagine because there was nothing to come together, and nowhere for it to come together, and no time for it to take to come together.

From nothing, nothing comes.  The universe is the product of a cause David, a cause that has to have produced all the matter and energy in the universe, as well as all the information that controls the workings of the universe.

That Cause must necessarily be transcendent.  Beyond and pre-existing the universe.  We Christians call that Cause, "God".  

Even pagan philosophers in the ancient world understood this.  Why can't you?

Thomas Maddux

[Oscar]

Dave,

It seems to me that you were hurt and confused in the assembly system.  You seem to have blindly followed the leaders.
The sort of things you have said about justice, morality, physical science and history lead me to believe that you are still confused.  

You just seem to have changed leaders.

I fear that the current crowd will do you even more damage.

Thomas Maddux

[David Mauldin]

Tom I don't think I am making the same mistakes.  For one I am in a situation of complete autonomy. I am a member of the Unitarian Church but they are little more than a social group. I could understand your concern if I was a member of a very tight group but I am not! All I am doing is reading books atlectures discussing ideas with people.  I am joining the Peace Corps which is an organization that is far too conservative for many of my friends. I am courious about what you are doing?  Are you growing?  Are you happy? Why? Why not?

[David Mauldin]

Tom are you saying these people  have proved me wrong?  In truth these people (and they will be the first to admit) are only giving their speculations as to what they think might be the truth. Your religion attempts to give an absolute answer to things we really don't know to be true.   i.e. gives you an explanation and reason to your suffering. Yes I have been entertaing the idea that the origins of the universe are (at this time) beyond our understanding.
You think this is foolishness? I am in good company.  The fact that we are inside this universe only allows us limited knowledge as to what it is, Thus you have religion. Thomas Aquinais expaining every little detail yet you yourself know that he was only speculating. I know you have read bios on Thomas Jefferson. To me this guys exemplifys what I believe.  Get outside of your limited understanding.  Investigate what others have to say, learned. Much of the evangelical church today is saturated with lies. Look at the hipocracy of our "Born Again" president who initiated a war based on lies, killed innocent people over wmd that have yet to be found?  In truth the U.S. gave IRAQ 7 starnds of Anthrax in 1980 to fight Iran with. But George who states "Jesus is my best friend" has refused to send aid to libyria because...it's not economicly to our advantage.

[amycahill]

Watch sunsets.   Walk on the beach.  Smell roses.  Take long, hot showers or long, hot baths.  Women, experiment with makeup and jewelry.  WEAR PIERCED EARRINGS!  Self-soothe.  Do something you never had the opportunity to do while you were in the Assembly.  Pray formally only once a day.  Pray informally, talking to God as a friend, whenever you feel like it with no pressure.  Go to a party.  Read a good book.

God bless,
Amy

[amycahill]

David---

I think God will let you be deceived--I think he'll let you fall flat on your face if it will serve a purpose in bringing you closer to himself. There is a verse in the Bible that speaks
of "The God of all comfort"--the verse says he comforts us with the result that we become a comfort to others.

If going through a legalistic system is a way to make you flee forever into the arms of Christ, I think God will use it.
Some of us are geared towards legalism--we love rules, and commands to follow. If God puts us(or allows us to drift into) a place where we learn that we cannot possibly keep all of these commands and rules, and suffer terribly under them, we learn to run into the arms of Grace, never to return to that system again. And as a result we learn to comfort those who are in the same thing or are escaping it.

We do have free will, and God will let us do as we please, but I feel with Christians he always has his hand in that situation, and will eventually let us hit rock bottom if needed to bring us again to himself. God is love.

take care,  Joe

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!!!

This is so me.  This is me all over.  I have been a natural fundamentalist since high school.  While I rightly hold the Assembly responsible for their spiritual abuse of me, I also hold myself responsible for having a disposition that naturally attracted me to cults.  They didn't make me a fundamentalist.  I already was one.  And God is trying to cure me of this fundamentalism.

I'm SOOOOOO glad you posted this!!!

God bless,
Amy

[amycahill]

Look around, smell the coffee!!!  Could a "Personal Loving Intimite God" as many of  you profess really allow you to be decieved?  What we went through in the assembly is "Life Lessons" just as everyone else in the world goes through!  But don't let these bad experiences discourage you!  Yes there is such a thing as truth and justice our humanity demands us to live for it. Listen to U2 Read good  literature!  Ask questions, evaluate, compare what you have learned with others!Get out of yourselves your 2 x 4 world and talk with other people!  love, care and give to our fellow creation. If you are interested in discussion E-mail me!  Teachdkm@netscape.net

I realized after reading a couple of posts that David has abandoned Christianity.  However, I don't think what he has to say here is all wrong.

Part of recovery IS getting out of yourself, experimenting, enjoying.  I also agree with what he said about thinking for yourself and determining things for yourself.  Truth will out -- if it is true, it has no need of defense.  After a lot of dithering, I chose the religion I grew up in -- Roman Catholicism.  But my beliefs about it now are much different than the beliefs I had growing up.  I approached the Catholic Church as a CONVERT, investigated it, and read up on it.  Even though I was attending Mass and receiving Communion, my conversion was not complete until I felt I understood the teachings of the Church and WHY they were true.  Now, I'm not here for a debate about the merits of Catholicism.  If anybody attempts to debate me, I'll just ignore you.  I'm trying to make an example from my own life, that's all.

And David, God allows all kinds of things.  God allows both good and bad.  We find it hard to believe, but it's right under our noses.  He allowed His only Son to DIE on a cross.  If He allowed that to happen to HIS SON, what hope do WE have of escaping suffering?  I look at the book of Job in a whole new light.  The question is no longer "How could God do that to Job?  That is so unfair!" but "God did this to Job because it pleased God to do so (and He used the devil to do it) and the book of Job just says 'why' and 'how'."  Someone on a group of mine said, "God wants us to be holy, not happy."  I think God wants us to be happy too, to be honest, but holiness definitely comes before happy.  I totally agree with that!

God bless,
Amy

[Sebastian Andrew]

Greetings Amy:
I like your perspective. It's not surprising if we find some truth in other religions, philosophies, etc. is it? All of us are created in the image of God and are able to a degree to perceive and apprehend truth. I have benefited greatly from the ministry of Dr. Scott Hahn, by the way, have you heard of him?
In closing here is a quote (hopefully appropriate in the light of this thread) :

An open mind is like an open mouth-it's made to be closed on something solid. G.K. Chesterton

[amycahill]

Not only have I heard of him, it's his book Rome Sweet Home that was EXTREMELY instrumental in my conversion back to Catholicism.  He's a wonderful teacher.

Another thing that initially made me realize that going back to the Catholic Church was an option was a conference I attended which was every bit as "on fire" as anything I had ever attended in a Protestant church.  Wow, these people loved the Lord!  And they were Catholic!  Imagine that!

God bless,
Amy