WOUNDED PILGRIMS

[Mark C.]

Good Sunday Morn.   !!

 Recovery Cont.

  I've been making the point that recovery from groups like the Assembly is not just some kind of cognitive process of un-learning bad teaching and a re-education in the truth of the grace of God.

   This is true because reason is only a part of what goes into our spiritual life.  Our decisions re. what we believe about God are a mix of different aspects of our consciousness.

   It is usually some kind of felt need that awakens us to seek after God, not Spock like powers of reason.

   The kind of damage done in the Assembly to many individuals is at the level of this emotional connection that we want to feel with God.  

    It usually is not helpful to many exmembers to just tell them that it is wrong to relate to God on the basis of feelings and instead learn to live their Christian lives by "total reliance on the propositional truth found in the Bible."

   The reason this is not helpful is because they have never based their Christian life via a detachment from any emotional context, and do not "think" apart from how things feel.

  When I hear folks saying, "don't walk by your feelings." I wonder exactly what they mean by it.   When I read a vs. about the love of God am I supposed to just enter it into the computer of my brain and try to analyze the information without any emotional response?

  "No Mark", some would respond, "you don't shut off emotion, rather allow your mental grasp of a principle to lead, rather than follow your emotions."

   Very good advice for them's ( ) that can do this, but for those that lived for decades via a pseudo spiritual means of living their lives their whole soul has been shattered and they just can't seem to grasp this!

  Consider a single sister who was in the Assembly for close to thirty years and now, though she is solid in her faith in Christ, feels totally empty in her present life.  It is not because she doesn't know that God loves her, but she is unable to recover any passion, or sense of truly being involved with God.

   She has received all the very good advice re. the facts of living a gift based life in Christ, and digested this info., but still feels like she is totally alone.  

   Should we tell her she doesn't have enough faith?  Advise her to "get over it" and "get on with her life"?  Maybe tell her to "not walk by her feelings" and thus learn to live a more rational kind of Christian life?  How about really messing with her mind by suggesting she is having these emotional problems because she is holding on to bitterness and needs to learn to "forgive and forget"!!

   My bet is that such advice will not only not lift up this fallen sister it might just permanently disable her!!  It's not that the advice is not well intentioned, or even in some cases not correct, but that it does not address the need.

   When this sister was in the group her feelings were alive with the passionate belief that God was present in her life via her involvement in the ministry.  She was plugged into The very purpose of God and her contribution was very valuable--- not only to the Assembly, but in advancing the "Eternal Purpose of God"!  Oh what a feeling!!

    Now?  she discovers that she was deceived into following a charlatan who used her to meet his own selfish sinful desires.  All these feelings from the past she now recongnizes as being false sensations of God's presence.

  Since the bible was used to maintain this fraudulent control of her life she doesn't trust herself in the correct application of it's truth and harbors great doubt re. her own ability to discern what is spiritual and what is not. And anyway, this sister never really cared much about "theological discussions," as she followed GG's guide to a "higher spirituality" that involved direct contact with God via her devotional life.

  This single sister also will not have the benefit of a spouse to help her adjust.  She was married to the Assembly, and gave up marriage and family to dedicate her life "to serve Christ."

  I know everyone is different, and as such, some will have more difficulty with this than others, but it is my contention that all former members will have some emotional issues that trouble them in living the Christian life.

  It is also my belief that God wants to restore a passion to our faith.  We're told that "the love of God is poured into our hearts by the Spirit that is given to us" and this seems to point to an actual experience vs. just mental trust in the fact. (in a later post I will give my opinion on this)  

  Like the Eph. 3 passage that talks about "inner strength" and "power" in our hearts.  Philp.2 talks about experiencing "the comfort of the Spirit" in our inner life.

  All these passages base this strength on "knowing the love of God" and this phrase,"the love of God" needs to be known in a way that really touches our day to day experience.  A rational theological conviction that is divorced from my feelings is not true spirituality, and lacks the quality of humaness that is necessary to live a fulfilled Christian life.  

  Yes, there can be dangers here that must be avoided, but life is filled with dangers, and the greater danger is that we leave people like this sister hanging on for dear life in a sea of doubt, confusion. depression, anxiety, etc.

  I've already mentioned that part of experiencing God's love is to learn to dream again--- vs. our Assembly nightmares.  An expectation that bouy's us up in the hope that God truly has a plan for my life that is of great value to him.  When Paul said,"we are saved by hope" what did he mean?  I think it means the value of the life we live here and now is rescued to achieve a special God designed goal!

  Love that is a kind of general love where, "God loves everyone and sent Jesus to die for the whole world", though true, becomes a distant theological concept that never seems to reach where I live somehow.  

   God's love for me means that he is personally involved in my life in a way that he is not involved in anyone else's life.  That he considers my life of great value to him (not just my eternal soul, but my actual day to day experiences).

   Jesus valued:  A prostitute who came to cry at his feet and to wash his feet in her tears, a disciple who was always putting his foot in his mouth and who denied Christ to a young girl, a crooked tax collector, a disciple who could not believe in the ress. of Jesus without physical proof, little children whom the disciples tried to prevent coming to him, broken reeds and burning flax, the poor in spirit, the meek of the earth, his little one's abused by pharisees, a pharisee who snuck out under the cover of darkness to meet with Jesus, etc.

   All these various gospel stories are presented so that we might be encouraged to believe that God has a very strong personal commitment to who we are; to the particular personality that we bear in all it's human characterics!  

   In the Assembly we were taught to be spiritual God wanted to obliterate our humanity via putting ourselves to death, but just the opposite is true.  God wants to save our humanity (our soul-- who we are) in this life in a way that fills our hearts with a strong passionate belief in God's personal care, friendship, shared purpose, etc. in us.

  God's love for us means that he values each individual in a special way, and that those who believe that end up bearing the likeness of that lover in their life.  This knowledge of his love must be experienced in the trenches of who I actually am (much more to be said about this).

                                       God bless,  Mark C.  

[M2]

....
   Peter, in Acts 2 ,tells the Jews that they must---- "Repent and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.

   There are conditions for forgiveness, according to Peter here, and some people (like Church of Christ folks) see a merit salvation scheme in it.

    I believe they miss the point of what Peter is saying here re. repentance, as did Mr Manning in his quote, and that is that Peter is asking the Jews to think differently about this Jesus "whom they crucified."

 In other words:  change your thinking that sees Jesus as a heretic and a liar and accept a different view that he is indeed the Messiah and the Son of God!

  Baptism was needed, not to earn God's forgiveness, but to demonstrate to the world one's sincerity.  Likewise, a hidden change of mind from a former Assembly leader (though God knows the heart) will not heal a broken relationship between a wronged former member and a leader.

   What is Mt.18:15- all about?  This is a process to bring healing to a relationship that includes a change in attitude by the one doing the offending before there can be reconciliation (which must include forgiveness).

   The process in this passage involves three steps, that we are all familiar with, but which show us clearly that there can be no forgiveness for the offender if he is unwilling to:

    1.) "Hear" the complaint of the offended party alone.

    2.)  Bring in a second party to help mediate, if still not resolved.

    3.) Tell the whole church the situation in an attempt to get the offender to listen, admit his wrong, and change his attitude (repentance) toward the offended member(as a last resort).

   If the above offender refuses to receive entreaty after all of this Jesus does not recommend that the wronged person just, "forgive and forget," rather, the offended is to change their own attitude toward the offender (repent) and treat him like an unsaved individual.

  For former/present Assembly leader/members who have wronged us there must be a demonstrated willingness to follow the above guideliness Jesus has given us in Mt. 18 or we have no obligation to forgive and forget the wrongs they have perpetrated upon us; on the contrary, we are advised to consider them as estranged from Jesus himself and one that Jesus is against as well.

   This does not mean we can't pray that God would bring the offender to repentance, or that we need to hold on to bitterness in our heart toward them.   However, forgiveness and forgetting is not what Jesus is telling us to do here.

  Re. bitterness:  It is easy for me to tell folks not to "hold on to bitterness" but another thing to actually have some success with this negative emotion.  Following  Jesus direction in Mt. 18 re. the process of reconciliation will do more to free one's heart from bitterness than our attempts to "transcend the hurt" via the unbiblical means of "forgiving and forgetting."

   Jesus words allow for a process that includes face to face encounter, vs. some kind of idealistic escapism via some kind of denial of the facts of how one was wronged.  Forgiveness is always connected with moral clarity and even if the offender refuses to be entreated we can realize that justice will be accomplished by God on the offender.

  When I know that I am right, vs. feeling guilty about my negative feelings toward the offender, there is a sense of relief that goes a long way toward helping me to get beyond any bitterness, and/or grudge I may be holding.  Repressing anger and attempting to forget my abuse does not cure the problem---- on the contrary, it only makes the matter worse.

  Jesus, Paul, etc. used very harsh language, at times, against those they considered to be offensive to God's children (in teaching and practices) and I would expect some of those telling us to "forgive and forget" would want to correct them for doing this (if they could).
....
                                            God Bless,  Mark C.

Thank you Mark and Stephen.  That helped to clarify the biblical teaching on forgiveness.

I liked the connection you made between repent (change your thinking) and be baptized (demonstrate) for the forgiveness of sins.  and all the rest too.

God bless,
Marcia

[Mark C.]

Good Sunday Morn. !

  Recovery cont.

  I have been talking about helping a former Assembly member "recover" in their Christian life.  This recovery will not only involve learning correct theology, but an ability to relate to God via one's "inner life."

  I think that I have made the point that the Bible teaches the need for "inner strength" and that Eph.3 seems to indicate that this comes from knowing God's love in more than a theoretical fashion.

  In a previous post I presented a hypothetical example of a single sister who was in the Assembly, and for whom post Assembly life was very difficult emotionally.  She understood that the Assembly merit theology was in error, and that she now relates to God on a gift basis, but still "feels" empty, living a life without purpose, but mostly suffers from a lack of passion in her life with Christ.

  It is the inner life that this sister is struggling with, and for which she needs to find recovery.  Though her thinking has been corrected in the area of theory, her actual life is pained with a great reluctance to:  read the bible, pray, meet with other Christians; because these practices trigger emotional memories.

   These "memories" were created via decades of habit and this is why her powers of reason/strength of will are not enough to subdue them; they are overwhelming in the control that they exert on the soul.

  "Well then," some may question, "cannot the Spirit of God just fill the heart of this needy soul and give healing to her soul?  If the recovery needed is to experience God's love, why can't the simple cry from the heart be answered with an inner surge of spiritual life?"

   Of course God can (and does) accomplish miracles in our life where we experience such a flood of feelings like this, but I don't think this is what Eph. 3 is talking about.  Some forms of teaching on "spirituality" teach what sounds more like demon possession, then what the Bible instructs us concerning being filled with the Spirit should be.

  In other words, true spirituality involves the conscious involvement of our personality---- not the submergence/transcendence of it via some kind of overcoming power from God.

  This is why, though we spent decades reading the bible, praying, attending meetings, putting to death our personality, climbing heavenly ladders, attaining heavenly vision etc., while in the Assembly, we still walked away with the same basic inner needs that we came to the group with (but usually these inner weaknesses were not only not helped they were made worse in the Assembly).

  Eastern mystical religions teach the "transcendence" of self, and also the "losing" of self via certain disciplines, but Christian truth dwells in the realm of reality, and this will mean that inner strength will not come from simply an "inner surge of emotional strength" that "makes" us experience new life in Christ.

  We've talked about living life based on "highs" before, and we can probably all remember the feeling at the end of a seminar of scaling heaven's highest only to crash down the following week as we faced the "real world" of our day.  Our lives were spent in trying to regain the feelings attained at the high in the attempt to "overcome" in our Christian experience.

  As Christians we are told that "love, joy, peace, etc." are all "fruits of the Holy Spirit" in our lives.  If they are "gifts", vs. something to be earned-- via personal performance, how come in my life I am not experiencing them?

  Do I not have enough faith to actualize them in my life?  Is it because of sin that I allow in my life, and thus the Holy Spirit is fleeing from me like a frightened dove?  Is it because I am holding on to "bitterness and unforgiveness" in my heart?  Or possibly, I'm just spiritually defective (lack the proper spiritual genetics)!!

  The above paragraph of possible reasons for a lack of spiritual life are all a result of our past pseudo spiritual existence.  They put the emphasis on my condition and abilities, vs. God's redemptive power.

   This still leaves us with the question, however, of how do we experience God's love, joy, peace etc. in our lives?  

  Bumper sticker mottos such as:

  "Let go and let God"

   "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven"

   "Jesus is my best friend"

  While abundantly true and blessed, can't just be learned and recited by themselves, as we must also connect these phrases with who we are.  This is why just learning the correct Biblical teaching on "experiencing true joy and peace in our Christian life" will not by itself lead to the desired goal of inner strength.

  It will take some more posts to explain what I mean by "connecting" who we are to spiritual truth to gain the positive end for which we seek.  I am not talking about the need for some kind of Christian version of psycho therapy, rather the understanding that it is impossible to be "spiritual" without acknowledging our humanity, being honest re. our own experience, and changing our view of what it means that God loves me.

                                            God Bless,  Mark C.
 

   

   

[outdeep]

Let me see if I can take a stab at what I think you are saying.  (Or my interpretation as it relates to me).

When I was in the Assembly, I was in a bit of a quagmire of feelings and emotions.  In some ways, I felt I was trying to climb out of a container with greased walls.  Every time, I thought I had a hold on something, my grip would slide.  Example:  "I really don't think the way George interpretes that Scripture is correct . . . or am I just unwilling to submit to what God is trying to say to me?"

Finally, I got to a place where I was willing to trust my reason over my feelings.  Hey, the way those Scriptures are handled is wrong.  Hey, this kind of behavior should not be tolerated.  Hey, many of the assumptions we made were incorrect.  etc.

Because this "mental hold" helped me dig out of the quagmire, I naturally assumed that the complete solution lies in a theological solution - that which can be reasoned and discussed.  I began to distrust the inner life because that is what kept me in the quagmire.

What I hear you saying is that even though right reason, theology, and thinking is important, it isn't the whole story.

First, we have to deal with past emotional baggage.  We were trainind to respond to circumstances, conditions, and certain words with certain emotional responses.  For example, even now when I open the Bible, something within wants to feel a certain way - it seeks the "God is speaking to me now" feeling.  I rarely get this feeling though I still anticipate it.  This was cultivated through many seminars and quiet times where I was taught that I must approach the Bible with expectency in order to receive its mystical direction.

Second, there is a legitimate "inner life".  There is a genuine response that Christians are to have where we react to situations without thinking about it.  For example, if we see someone injured on the side of the road, we don't say,  "Hmmm, let's see now, let me think about the doctrine of the Good Samaritan.  What was Jesus saying here?  Oh I get it, I need to love my neighbor.  Let me jot down three points of how this applies here."

Instead, we immediately pull over the car, jump out and see if there is a way we can help.  So in many other instances, there is a proper "inner life" response that should be rooted in good doctrine, but doesn't necessarily result from doctrinal reasoning.

I may be off on what you are saying, but this is the best I can do in the time I have.

[M2]

Here is an interesting quote that I believe is related to your post Dave.  I extracted this from a sermon preached yesterday to be posted later today:
www.kbc.on.ca/worship.asp?subject=sermons
Feb 13 2005  Being Fully Converted - Jonathan Mills

Dallas Willard, a Pastor and professor of Philosophy writes that there is, sadly, too little emphasis in Western Christianity on the kind of ongoing discipleship that is transformative. Instead, he says that we spend too much time defining orthodoxy (‘believing the right things’) and trying our best to make good decisions based on our understanding of the faith.

For example, the “What Would Jesus Do?” movement which came out of a popular fictional novel entitled “In His Steps.” In the book, the Pastor of a church decided that his lifestyle was not consistent with Christ – so he decided to approach every decision with the question: ‘what would Jesus do in this case?’ (Willard, Dallas The Spirit of the Disciplines. (New York: Harper San Francisco. 1991). pp. 8-9 (cf. Chapter 1. pp. 1-10))

Dallas Willard responds to this by writing; “...the idea conveyed is an absolutely fatal one–that to follow him [Jesus] simply means to try to behave as he did when he was “on the spot,” under pressure or persecution or in the spotlight. There is no realization that what he did in such cases was, in a large and essential measure, the natural outflow of the life he lived when not on the spot.” (Willard, Dallas The Spirit of the Disciplines. (New York: Harper San Francisco. 1991). p. 9)

Marcia

[Oscar]

Here is an interesting quote that I believe is related to your post Dave.  I extracted this from a sermon preached yesterday to be posted later today:
www.kbc.on.ca/worship.asp?subject=sermons
Feb 13 2005  Being Fully Converted - Jonathan Mills

Dallas Willard, a Pastor and professor of Philosophy writes that there is, sadly, too little emphasis in Western Christianity on the kind of ongoing discipleship that is transformative. Instead, he says that we spend too much time defining orthodoxy (‘believing the right things’) and trying our best to make good decisions based on our understanding of the faith.

For example, the “What Would Jesus Do?” movement which came out of a popular fictional novel entitled “In His Steps.” In the book, the Pastor of a church decided that his lifestyle was not consistent with Christ – so he decided to approach every decision with the question: ‘what would Jesus do in this case?’ (Willard, Dallas The Spirit of the Disciplines. (New York: Harper San Francisco. 1991). pp. 8-9 (cf. Chapter 1. pp. 1-10))

Dallas Willard responds to this by writing; “...the idea conveyed is an absolutely fatal one–that to follow him [Jesus] simply means to try to behave as he did when he was “on the spot,” under pressure or persecution or in the spotlight. There is no realization that what he did in such cases was, in a large and essential measure, the natural outflow of the life he lived when not on the spot.” (Willard, Dallas The Spirit of the Disciplines. (New York: Harper San Francisco. 1991). p. 9)

Marcia

Marcia,

For me, the problem with the WWJD? movement was that I frequently didn't know.  In many situations, the answer was , "Beats me".

Regarding Dallas Willard's comments.  He is not the only one who sees the problem.  In fact, Biola offers an MA program in spiritual development.

I have a friend who is a long time faculty member, has served as Dean of Men and such, as well as teaching for over 30 years.  He has a PhD. in his field, but he is now a student as well.

He is actively pursuing his desire to know God by taking classes in that program.  I am reading a book he recommended to me that was one of his texts.

I have spoken to some other students in the program and they speak highly of it.

Thomas Maddux

[Mark C.]

Hi Everyone! 

  Gone for a week and look what happens to the BB!  Ol' folks like me don't like new fangled things, but I guess I'll have to try and adjust  ,

   Dave:  Your "taking a stab" at an answer to my posts on this thread tells me that you are having some difficulty understanding the point that I am trying to make.  I invite you, and everyone else who reads, to come right out and tell me if they are confused re. what I am trying to say.

   Part of the problem in my communication is that I expect that readers are following my continuing series styled format.  I also suspect that I need help in being clear and concise in the things that I write.  I wrote for months on the BB before someone spoke up by suggesting that I write in small paragraphs, vs. long one's.

  Re. your response:  You talked about the battle between reason and emotion that led to you finally leaving the Assembly.  Your situation is quite different from the one I presented in my post of the single sister who stayed until the place fell down around her.

  I don't mean to suggest that what I am saying about recovery is a one-size-fits-all type of answer.  You at least had the battle between reason and emotion going on, while the 3 decade middled age single sister connected to spiritual things by inner impulse alone.

  I know of many former members who don't care about understanding "what a verse really means" because their Assembly involvement was totally based on the kind of false spirituality that GG promoted in his higher life teaching. 

  You mentioned getting over an inner battle between guilt over rejecting GG's postulations, and your own perceptions.  This "sister" had long ago given up her perceptions (if contrary to Assembly teaching/practices) as being either of the flesh or the devil.

  This doesn't mean the above person is not intelligent, especially gullible, weak of character, entered the Assembly with severe emotional problems, etc.  I have mentioned before that sociologists (like Enroth) have noted that members of these groups usually have a higher than average level of intelligence, and do not share a higher number than the general public of the same kind of other problems that I mentioned above.

  Like all of us were---- they were sheep who were led astray.

    In my opinion, it is neither correct, nor helpful, to suggest to those struggling with their recovery that they focus on the flaws that led to their deception; rather, as with Jesus strong words re. those that harm his little ones', it is the deceptor that deserves the denunciation!  (not that you are saying this Dave.  I'm writing this part in response to those that reject the terrible power of toxic faith and subtleties of spiritual abuse.)

  It is in understanding the deep love that Jesus has for me personally as a wounded pilgrim, hurt by false religion, that I, as a "robbed and beaten" child of God, can find healing in my emotional life.  For some of us just learning the correct theology doesn't meet an essential need of our souls.

  When a person is physically beaten and robbed there is injury, and given time and care the wounds can heal.  When our soul takes a beating (so to speak) time also helps in recovery, but what for the need of care for these?

   I have suggested that our personality is a basic part of our spirituality, and that false religion, like the Assembly, attempted to control/manipulate/ crush/supress/ and teach escape from that personality.  Years of this "makes" us into a person, that not only is not in the image of God, it can take on the nature of something either monstrous (pharisees) or beaten and robbed like (as seen in the Demonic of Gadarene).  Both of these conditions require different means of handling.

  This thread is meant to try and help the sheep who was led astray.  Not by berating them for their foolishness to follow GG, but with the message that God has a very special love for "the one" in such a condition.   

  This "message" not only needs to be accepted by mental assent, but believed deeply from the heart--- if there is to be any inner health/strength/life.  Most of those whom met Jesus in the Gospels, like the sinner woman, the woman of Samaria, Zaccheus, etc., were not theological students, or great philosophical minds, yet they developed profound connections with, and brought great glory to God.

  They all understood that God had invited them into a deep personal relationship with himself.  This invitation was based on a unique personal interest and love in that individual, vs some kind of general invitiation to humanity at large. 

   The recovering Assemblyite often suffers from a feeling of abandonment and of a loss of purpose in a life with God.  Viewing God's love for me as an individual as being very real, and based solely on God's personal calling, must be understood in a real and personal manner.  Just seeing it in fleeting devotional moments will not be very helpful. 

   We must both be honest with our need, and utterly convinced that this need will not prevent our relationship with God.  God has great personal interest, and also great power in his involvement with our lives.  Thus the teaching of Eph. 3 that through the view of God's love we can experience a "more abundant life."

                                                                                        God Bless,  Mark C.
 

[Oscar]

Mark,

You said:

   The recovering Assemblyite often suffers from a feeling of abandonment and of a loss of purpose in a life with God.  Viewing God's love for me as an individual as being very real, and based solely on God's personal calling, must be understood in a real and personal manner.  Just seeing it in fleeting devotional moments will not be very helpful. 

The Christian's walk is a walk of faith.  Walking by faith means believing what God has revealed. 

We are never told it will be easy, in fact it has gotten many saints killed.

The idea that one must have a certain emotional state before they can walk with God is unsound on both scriptural and psychological grounds. 

Deep emotional experiences can be wonderful, but they are the results of faith and obedience, not precursors.

One author, I think it was C.S. Lewis, defined faith as "believing in the darkness what God has shown you in the light." 

I have read the description you have given of this "wounded" sister.  I do not doubt that the assembly experience has damaged her.  But that does not mean that she doesn't need to learn to walk by faith, just like any other Christian.

There is a possibility that the real problem is that there are issues that she brought into the Christian life with her and has never resolved.  If that is the case, some serious work with a counsellor could be of help.  If a person honestly cannot function in a healthy fasion, counselling is usually necessary it normality is to be restored.

But there has to be a genuine willingness to face issues and deal with them.  Some people drift from counsellor to counsellor complaining that "they" do not help them.  The fact is that counsellors can only help us discover how to help ourselves by facing ourselves.

BTW, I am absolutely against the phony religious nonsense called "Noetic Counselling".  Deep emotional/spiritual issues do not disappear with a few minutes of "repentence".

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

[Mark C.]

Thanks for your response Tom.

   I don't know what "Noetic Counseling" is.  For me to respond to this I will need more information.  I would be grateful if you could elaborate on it.

  Emotions and faith:  Where does an individual's ability to believe come from, and how does it work itself out in real life?  Is faith the product of a strong will ?--- a kind of determination that allows me to overcome all that seems to contradict that faith?  Do emotions just naturally follow our resolute and dedicated determinations, or can our emotional make-up hinder or help our faith?

  There are those who seem to see faith as: reason+ will = the Christian life.  Of course, they will always say that emotions are important, but only as a kind of tag-along item that will all fall into place if I remain steadfast in the faith.

  Some resist any notion of counsel for psychological issues as being "un-spiritual", but I know that you do not agree with this.  What I think you are saying is:  if the Christian can just believe hard enough they can conquer all, but if they can't, they need to stop using their own emotional problems as an excuse for failing.  One may need help with depression, anxiety, from being a victim of abuse, etc. but, these are often used as excuses to avoid just obeying God.

  I used to see things this way, but Jesus' interaction with people in the Gospels, as well as other NT passages changed my mind (not to mention my own life).  Faith is from the heart, and not just the engagement of our volition based on propositional truth.  The fruit of the Spirit is: Love, joy, peace, etc.  The greatest 2 commands are to "love God and love one another."  The "more excellent way" is described as "love," and the "greatest of the three: faith, hope, and love, is love."

  Love does include the will, my reason, and my actions, but Christian teaching that stops at these three attributes forgets the ability to "feel" for other people.  Love also has a tender side--- "Jesus wept", the Good Samaritan stopped and helped the robbed and beaten man, etc.

   As an ol' trucker ( you know: "the rain is on the windshield, and my tears are on the steering wheel--eighteen wheels a-rolliin', home sweet home ) and a Grandpa, I imagine that I might confuse compassion/sympathy with a kind of "sloppy agoppy" at times, but it was that "soft heart" of mine that eventually enabled me to get out of the Assembly, not my powers of reason or theological abilities.

   Faith arises from hearts' touched by the love of God.  Not in some kind of super emotionalism of a Charismatic styled encounter, but one nonetheless that does affect us---- like the Sinner woman in the Gospels.  The disciples, pharisees, and Judas all misunderstood what was going on in that situation.  This woman was obviously very emotionally engaged with Jesus because she understood his love for her personally and what it would mean for her life.

   As Christians we must have passion, as well as reason, in our faith.  For many former Assembly members the loss of passion in their lives is a direct result of decades of harmful teaching and abusive practices.  To recover this will take more than just attendance in a "healthy church" and "good teaching."  Even "psychological counsel" by itself, imho, will not help them in their Christian lives.

  The best thing that we can do for these wounded souls is to love them as God loves us.  It has been my point recently to try and describe what that love means: 

 1.) It is specific love:  He loves each one of his children in a special way.

 2.) Love means God has a true affection for us.  (yes, he actually likes us and wants to be with us)

 3.) God's love has a hope for us: (he has specific purpose for our life that only we can accomplish)

 4.) God's love does not despise us for our weakness and failures. (He's not keeping score!) Nor does he love us on the basis of our ability to "deal with" these kind of struggles.

 5.) God's love has empathy and sympathy for me as an individual.  Divine love shares this human attribute.

    We can probably think of some more, but suffice it say that this very deeply involves one's emotions, and as such, these become a key element to one's ability to trust in God in a meaningful way. 

   Faith in theological facts (what God has revealed), to mean something to an individual Christian, must be known in the terms of a personal relationship with God himself.  We, as evangelical Christians, are always saying this, but what does it mean?  What is God really like as a person and what does he think of me---- I mean really think of me?

   The reality of personal engagement with God in the Assembly was twisted and turned God into who he was not.  To recover faith in some damaged there we must recover their hearts as well as their minds.  To delete either from our lives as Christians will lead to serious loss (not of salvation, but of the enjoyment of God.)  To just exhort these troubled souls to "believe God in the darkness" could be recieved as just another reminder of their Assembly past where their "root problem" was a lack of faith.  I believe our "root problem" is a lack of really knowing who God is and how much he loves us (rooted and grounded in love---")


                                                       God Bless,  Mark C.

                                                                                             

                                                                               

   

[editor]

   I don't know what "Noetic Counseling" is.  For me to respond to this I will need more information.  I would be grateful if you could elaborate on it.

I think Tom might mean NOUTHETIC counseling, as espoused by Jay Adams?

It's a little wierd, but not like Betty or anything.

Brent

[vernecarty]

Thanks for your response Tom.

 
  Emotions and faith:  Where does an individual's ability to believe come from, and how does it work itself out in real life? 


                                                       God Bless,  Mark C.

                                                                                            
                                                                              
   

The third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit. God the Father elects, the Spirit effects the obedience of faith, God the Son cleanses thorough His shed blood...


  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

that "soft heart" of mine that eventually enabled me to get out of the Assembly, not my powers of reason or theological abilities.

This is something that has caused me to wonder greatly Mark. I wonder about the hearts of some folk.
It is stilll a thing of unspeakable wonder to me, that not a single elder serving with George has raised a voice in publlic condemnation and repudiation of this man. With the remarkable exception of Brent Tr0ckman, virtually no one serving with him has declared him to be what he unquestionably is   - a false prophet/teacher.
Oh I know they issued an ex-communication letter...after God had judged preremptorily and a very, very bad sign. When this kind of sin by someone in his position becomes public, it was God's ultimate resort and highlights the ineffectiveness of spiritual leadership. 
The people who throw out charges of "hatred" for the condemnation of a man like Geftakys must truly have hearts of stone. Judging from what you stated one of them sent to you in an e-mail, I am convinced of that fact, pretensions of solicitous care notwithstanding...

Verne

[M2]

Mark,

You said:
The Christian's walk is a walk of faith.  Walking by faith means believing what God has revealed. 

We are never told it will be easy, in fact it has gotten many saints killed.

The idea that one must have a certain emotional state before they can walk with God is unsound on both scriptural and psychological grounds. 

Deep emotional experiences can be wonderful, but they are the results of faith and obedience, not precursors.

One author, I think it was C.S. Lewis, defined faith as "believing in the darkness what God has shown you in the light." 

I have read the description you have given of this "wounded" sister.  I do not doubt that the assembly experience has damaged her.  But that does not mean that she doesn't need to learn to walk by faith, just like any other Christian.

There is a possibility that the real problem is that there are issues that she brought into the Christian life with her and has never resolved.  If that is the case, some serious work with a counsellor could be of help.  If a person honestly cannot function in a healthy fasion, counselling is usually necessary it normality is to be restored.

But there has to be a genuine willingness to face issues and deal with them.  Some people drift from counsellor to counsellor complaining that "they" do not help them.  The fact is that counsellors can only help us discover how to help ourselves by facing ourselves.

BTW, I am absolutely against the phony religious nonsense called "Noetic Counselling".  Deep emotional/spiritual issues do not disappear with a few minutes of "repentence".

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

Tom,

I agree that the "wounded" sister needs to learn to walk by faith.  I also know that some wounded ones have indeed sought counselling, but it has not done much good.  So, as one, who wants to help and to benefit, how do I help the wounded one, who was already wounded prior to his/her assembly experience and then further wounded by it?  I feel that we can empathize with these ones because we have been through it ourselves, whereas a counsellor, who has not, may not be truly able to.  Just some thoughts, any comments?

I remember that the Nouthetic stuff by JayAdams was promoted by the assembly.  The idea was that if one is truly led by the Spirit then one does not need humanistic psychology to properly or effectively counsel another.  Possibly this was based on the verse that says you are able to judge your own and do not need to go to the world (I do not have a bible at hand to cut and paste).

Marcia

[editor]

It is stilll a thing of unspeakable wonder to me, that not a single elder serving with George has raised a voice in publlic condemnation and repudiation of this man.

Verne

This isn't true, Verne.

Steve Irons did, and is doing so today.  Also, Tom may not have been recognized by the politburo of Fullerton, but he was and elder and he has spoken out.  Wayne Matthews also.

A better way of saying it, with a little less bravado would be to say that "most" of the men serving did not raise a voice......

Brent

[Oscar]

Mark,

You said:

  I don't know what "Noetic Counseling" is.  For me to respond to this I will need more information.  I would be grateful if you could elaborate on it.

  Emotions and faith:  Where does an individual's ability to believe come from, and how does it work itself out in real life?  Is faith the product of a strong will ?--- a kind of determination that allows me to overcome all that seems to contradict that faith?  Do emotions just naturally follow our resolute and dedicated determinations, or can our emotional make-up hinder or help our faith?

  There are those who seem to see faith as: reason+ will = the Christian life.  Of course, they will always say that emotions are important, but only as a kind of tag-along item that will all fall into place if I remain steadfast in the faith.

1. I mistakenly called "Noethetic Counselling", "Noetic Counselling".  This is because I threw my copy of that book away so many years ago that I had forgotten the unusual word.  If I recall correctly, Charles Solomon taught the same thing.  I can't check, because I chucked his books too.

2. Verne has pointed out that the ability to believe God comes from God.  If this person is a "sister" she already has that ability.

3. How does faith work out in real life?  Look at the life of Abraham, the father of the faithful.  (Romans 4:16).  A look at his life shows what the walk of faith is about.  For example, what do you suppose Abe felt like as he took Isaac up that hill to kill him. I think that we can be reasonably certain that he felt rotten!

Scripture describes faith in terms of weak or strong, (Rom.4:19), which is a function of the will.  As well, it describes it as a function of the intellect, (Rom. 4:21), which produces acts of obedience.  Abraham is commended for obeying, "against hope", (hope in his natural abilities that is), (Rom.4:18).

  "...yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God." (Rom.4:20).   Lack of faith is a failure to exercise the ability that God has given us.

Now, I do not deny that powerful negative feelings such as fear, can interfere with this.  But if we say that we must feel just so before we acknowledge God's power and soveriegnty in our lives, we are decieved.  Sometimes we must bow the knee in spite of our feelings!

Much of the trouble that we get ourselves into regarding the life of faith comes from poor habits.  We can actually train ourselves to depend on our emotions.  God gave us our emotions as an important aspect of our being.  They add much of the "flavor" to our lives that make them enjoyable.  We pay a price for them though.  When we love, we expose ourselves to sorrow, and when the loved one suffers or dies.

But faith is our response to God's truth.  To place emotion ahead of faith in the order of our decision to believe and obey God is unwise, unhealthy, and unsound.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

[vernecarty]

This isn't true, Verne.

Steve Irons did, and is doing so today.  Also, Tom may not have been recognized by the politburo of Fullerton, but he was and elder and he has spoken out.  Wayne Matthews also.

A better way of saying it, with a little less bravado would be to say that "most" of the men serving did not raise a voice......

Brent

I should have been more specific.
Steve Irons and Tom Maddux made their choices long before God so evidently and publicly  judged Geftakys.
Wayne Matthews, so far as I know, was not an elder.
My statement is certainly true of those serving with him at the time the "ministry" imploded.
If I am mistaken in this I am prepared to be enlightened.
Verne
p.s Obvioulsy it would be an error to claim that no one spoke up. Many did and paid the price. I should have more specifically limited my comment to elders serving with George at the time.