WOUNDED PILGRIMS

[Mark C.]

Good Sunday Morning!

  And a very good day to consider the positive aspects of facing our ugly past and discovering beauty in those ashes.

  In the consideration of what the bible might mean by "strength in the inner man," and all I've talked about in regard to "knowing God's love" as the means to that strength, we are faced with the question of, "how do I experience this?"

  If we are true Christians we have been given the ability to believe the above inspite of how we may feel, or any seeming contradictions/doubts that we may have.

 Yet, we must be honest in regard to these inner contradictions to our faith as they just can't be dismissed.   We may find that after trying to sweep them out they return with 7 times stronger force at a later time.

  I gave a personal illustration re. my own struggle with anxiety in the last post.
(This is not an attempt at amateur self psychoanalysis, rather an excercise in honest Christian thinking).
  I have no control over my inner state as I'm just waking up.  These anxious thoughts seem to be deeply imbedded in my subconscious and there are no spiritual excercises that I can perform in my sleep to actualize my faith in an effort to control them.

  Questions:

1.) How come the Spirit doesn't just sweep away these negative feelings and provide me with peace, joy, etc. in their place?

2.) If I'm trusting God and walking by faith shouldn't I just ignore anything inside that seems to contradict the promise of God's life overcoming all inner liabilities?

3.) What if, despite my best efforts, I seem to fall into the same negative patterns of habit that do not bring glory to God?

   All the above questions have to do with what is controlling my inner life, and this transformation of the soul is not accomplished via some kind of easy fix method, nor should we expect perfection in this life.

   In one of the previous verses we considered it said, "be not drunk with wine---- but be filled with the Spirit. etc."  The idea here is that wine takes over and so strongly influences us we are brought under it's control.

  However, the Spirit, though it seeks to control us, does not do so as alcohol/drugs would.  Intoxication makes us numb to certain feelings inside (as any lover of ol' crying-in-your-beer country songs will know ). 

  What is going on when the Spirit "fills us"?    [/b]

  As I shared in my comments on the above verse before, it is the result of the Spirit's control in our lives that leads to the "making melody in our hearts to the Lord," not the means to that end.  But, the verse just says, "be filled, etc." and doesn't really tell us how that is accomplished.

  There are some clues to follow:

1.) "Be filled"---  suggests there is not some kind of process to actualize the Spirit in our lives--- The Spirit is readily avaivlabe to us, even apparently those languishing in a bad habit like getting drunk.  We don't have to go through an inner reformation, purify our hearts, engage in a regimen of devotion, etc. to gain access to the Spirit as there is ready access to this resource no matter our condition.

2.) "Be filled in the inner man"--- This is from Eph. 3 and helps us to see that The Spirit acts on the inside of us, but as we've seen this action is not like a drug that overcomes our senses, but rather has another dynamic altogether.  The dyanamic is via communication.

  In Eph. 3 we learn the Spirit tells us about God's love for us and it is by that love we are controlled.

3.) What is filled?  God's love for me personally first must be understood and believed as a fact of my Christian life, and this fills the mind, but it also needs to fill all areas of my psyche, and this will include my emotions. 

   Since God's Spirit does not possess us, like a bad habit, alcohol, or a demon would, there is no overpowering magic that will make our weaknesses and bad habits just vanish.  God's work in us is meant to save "us", our souls---- my very own unique personality, and He has no desire to obliterate who we are in an effort to create an idealized "spiritual man."

  We loathe our weaknesses, bad habits, character flaws, etc. and these things were made big issues in our Assembly past and have made us especially sensitive to them.  Our value to God, according to GG, was based on our ability to "deal with" these issues and those unable to do so were rejected, ridiculed, and openely shamed.  While all had these struggles, those that could hide them were rewarded for their acting abilities (hypocrisy).


    God's Spirit wishes to fill us with the knowledge of God's resolute determined love for each one of us and of the great value we have in his eyes!  To the degree we can honestly consider our liabilities we will experience the consolation of the Holy Spirit.  This is why it is important to honestly reflect on our Assembly past, our present condition in light of that past, and move forward with assurance on our pilgrim path!

   Much more to come----         God Bless,  Mark C.

[lenore]

     Dear Lenore, 

  I made a few little edits on your wonderful post above, but that is only because I thought that your insights needed to be made very clear for all to consider.

  You have in one post presented what I have been trying to say in a couple of years of posting!  You say, "the things that I have learned", and in fact your post demonstrates that God has not only helped you but is helping us through your acquired wisdom.

  You used the phrase, "broken spirit", a very biblical phrase, and one worth pondering in light of this thread of "Wounded Pilgrims."

  For those who object to the term "spiritual abuse", please consider the above phrase (broken spirit), and those like it in the Bible.  I've mentioned how Jesus and Paul taught the dangers of false religion in regard to how it can "harm/destroy/make evil/ offend/etc."

  So, if one does not like modern terms, such as "toxic", then you are just reacting to the modern use of terms for what Jesus had described as, "a den of Vipers!"  Again, Jesus was trying to describe a spiritual reality where certain religionists are capable of giving you poisoned (toxic?) bites.  Jesus and Paul warned that certain teaching/practices can harm persons of faith.  They also taught that innocent and sincere believers can be deceived and taken advantage of by spiritual imposters.

 Not only can imposters harm us, those that consider themselves "the strong" can damage our souls as well.  If we want to follow Jesus we need to learn how to build-up vs. tear down and that will mean an honest review of how the church teaches and practices it's theology.

  Lenore has put the whole consideration in balance, an aspect of our lives that the Assembly threw way out of whack, and that is that it is not wrong to consider our past abuse and that there are positive ways to deal with the abuse and to get better.

  There are those who say, "get on with your life and stop whining about your Assembly past", to which I would answer: "Are you saying in the above statement that you wish to ignore/escape/suppress up to 30 years of your life?  Is your life so meaningless that what you dedicated your life to for decades is not worth any consideration?"

   If you won't reflect, as Lenore has been forced to do because of her emotional struggles, you will never gain the wisdom and depth of faith that she has gained.   

   Some might consider Lenore "the weak," and because they don't suffer from depression like she does, they consider her contribution here not as valuable as someone without such a malady.

  Like the biblical referneces to the widow we discover these are the most important to God; and ones' who are most prized in his estimation and useful to his purposes! 

   Thanks so much Lenore for building my faith and for providing an example of how grace works in our souls!

                                                        God Bless,  Mark C.
   

Thanks you for your words of encouragement. I appreciate them.
Feel free to edit my postings any time your deem them needed.

I want to clarify one thing.  "I have learned",  Yet I am still learning these truths in my life.
There are days that I think I have the lesson the God wants me to learn, then there are other days where it is obvious I still have to learn them, and God takes me though the steps all over again.  It is not because I am slow, it is because I am stubborn.

Thanks again, Mark, for the wonderful words of encouragement, it does much to lift ones spirit.

Lenore

[Mark C.]

Good Easter Sunday Morning!

  I have been talking about faith and emotions, and in so doing have been trying to understand how the two work together.   I understand that different Christian traditions will have a theological view as to how these will operate in our lives, but I'm not trying to provide a work of scholarship here, rather a practical help for former members of the Assembly.

  This is a good morning to finally get to the phrase in the Bible:

 "Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks." Eph. 4: 18

  "Making music in your heart", really caught my eye one day while reading the passage about "be filled with the Spirit."  I like the KJ translation that uses the word "melody" for music as well.  What could this mean for us in our day-to-day lives?

  Music is an emotional experience and expresses/relates to what one is feeling on the inside.  This passage above instructs us to "make" music in our heart.   

   Is this "making of music" some version of working ourselves up into a state of joyfullness?  You know, an encouragement to, "put on a happy face" or, something like that?

  Though we are to make the music in our heart, it is a response to something outside of our own soul and it is a fruit of the H.S.. This makes it obvious that the Spirit does have an effect on our emotional realm, as well as the area of reason.

  Now, obvioiusly the mind is involved in all of this, and I am not saying that the Spirit bypasses our mind and touches our inner life, rather that the two aspects of our being must work in harmony (another musical word) for us to have a balanced Christian life.

  The Assembly was very destructive to this harmony for many of us.  Many of us entered the group as babies in Christ and were raised in a dysfunctional Christian family environment that instead of nuturing our inner life caused there to be, at the very least, some confusion. 

  Instead of a beautiful melody in our heart we had a discordant, out of tune, flat, and unharmonious inner life.  This was due primarily to the pushing down/denial of one's feelings as being "unspiritual".

   Jesus primary designation for the Pharisees aberrant religious expression was the concept of "hypocrisy".  Their lives were split in two between the "public" and the "private". 

  The Pharisees were so used to lying to themselves about their inner lives that they developed hearts that were hardened to any entreaty.  They could, like GG, live a double life and escape any feeling of conviction for their sin.  Those pointing out their duplicity became victims of their anger.

  This "splitting in two", where the outer and inner are not operating in harmony, can create other damage than just the hardened heart, it can have the opposite effect for some of us by creating a very raw and irriated (sensitive) inside. 

   The Assembly leaders tended to have hardened sensitivities, while many regular members suffered from a hyper-sensitivity; and of course each individual falls somewhere in that continuum.

  Each individual will be different, but most will need to face the fact that they are products of their enviornment, and their responses to that bad upbringing, to some degree.  If we try to ignore these things they won't just go away; we can't escape from our own selves.

  There are different kinds of escapism that we can employ:

1.) Forget and move on:  If one's inner life is damaged, just like if we hurt a body part, ignoring/denying it will not bring healing.

2.) Try to become a Vulcan    This is where we minimize the human side of our being by living our lives in a very rationlistic way.  "Just the facts Maam", becomes our motto and we dismiss those that consider emotional health to be important for our Christian lives.  We fear dealing with our inner life, because it is so tender in there, and so we act to protect ourselves from getting hurt again.

3.) Stay on the sunny side:

 This is an attempt to make lemonade out of the lemons the Assembly gave us.  God does indeed have the ability to turn our ashes into beauty, and we can profit from our past bad experiences, but sometimes we can use this attitude as a means to escape what really was going on in the group; especially what was created inside of me as a result of my sojourn there.
 
  While creating a happy-go-lucky feeling in me it can make me very insensitive to those who were hurt there that I may come in contact with.  As I listen to a wounded soul's complaint I can come back with a flippant "spiritual" comment that seems to minimize the pain the hurt individual is feeling.  I've got a song to sing, "keep on the sunny side", but it is not a melody that is helpful to others, because in it's shallowness it is nothing more than a tinkling cymbal.

   I will try to post some more today and add what I hope are helpful thoughts to "making music in our heart to the Lord."  Your comments are appreciated and please feel free to disagree.

                                                   God Bless,  Mark C.

                                                 
   

 

[Mark C.]

Music in our heart cont.

    In the Assembly the "self life" (natural life, soul life) was to be put to death so that our spiritual self could come to life.

  The bible does tell us to put the sinful self to death, but this does not mean seeing our own emotional life as an enemy.

   God does not hate the fact that we have certain natural feelings as a human being; indeed, he created these aspects of our humanity and they reflect what it means that we are in God's image. 

  Jesus wept, sometimes in great emotional pain (Gesthamane), and he enjoyed the positive feelings of gathering with people and feasting (which brought the wine bibber accusation from the kill- joy Pharisees).

  When I first left the Assembly I felt guilty when I was enjoying something that could not be directly labelled as "spiritual", as in meeting attendance or bible study, because this habit of seeing my inner life as needing to be supressed was so ingrained in me.

   Though we were instructed to "put to death" our natural human yearnings it is funny that it had the opposite effect intended, as it tended make you very aware of self, and difficult to just forget oneself and have a good time.

    To recover from this constant self awareness we need to be able to bring out all these feelings that we've submerged in the recognition that God sees the whole thing anyway and loves us just the way we are.  Talking about these with an understanding friend can go a long way toward helping us, and as we will see later, a crucial ministry described in the NT.

  The deep relief we will feel from knowing that God is not trying to kill our personality, and truly is kind, will set us to singing a song of joy in his direction.  He does not want to shame us for our inadequcies, the way the Assembly did, but wants to shield us as a good parent would.

   We have to develop a habit of believing in the God who is our dearest friend, wants us to succeed, and cares deeply about us.  It is the conscious practical trust in my daily experience of this love that will reach down into the depths of the inner life to bring healing and harmony to my soul.

                                           God Bless,  Mark C.

[vernecarty]

Music in our heart cont.

    In the Assembly the "self life" (natural life, soul life) was to be put to death so that our spiritual self could come to life.

  The bible does tell us to put the sinful self to death, but this does not mean seeing our own emotional life as an enemy.

   God does not hate the fact that we have certain natural feelings as a human being; indeed, he created these aspects of our humanity and they reflect what it means that we are in God's image. 

This perverse teaching was very instrumental in stripping away a God-given faculty for warning us of danger, namely, the conscience. Those who imbibed the false teaching of George and Betty still invoke the "self-life" argument as a means of criticizing those who oppose them with passion. Look at how consciences became so seared in the assemblies as to tolerate in silence, that which would have outraged the most pagan of unbelievers!
And some of you don't think the assemblies were dangerous??
Your point about this kind of false teaching having the opposite of its intended effects in right on the money.
Look at what happened to so many assembly teenagers.
The unhealthy teaching regarding unnatural suppression of emotions, rather than a healthy acknowledement of them, coupled with sound teaching of how God wants to direct and control by His indwelling Spirit, resulted in many of these young folk engaging in conduct far more serious than many of their unsaved peers.
That result alone should have alerted some of these idiot parents that something was desperately wrong with what they were doing. The children of course saw through the hypocrisy of George and Betty and their parents and rightly despised anything they had to say. This is by far the highest price paid my many involved with these wicked people.

 

  When I first left the Assembly I felt guilty when I was enjoying something that could not be directly labelled as "spiritual", as in meeting attendance or bible study, because this habit of seeing my inner life as needing to be supressed was so ingrained in me.

   Though we were instructed to "put to death" our natural human yearnings it is funny that it had the opposite effect intended, as it tended make you very aware of self, and difficult to just forget oneself and have a good time.

    To recover from this constant self awareness we need to be able to bring out all these feelings that we've submerged in the recognition that God sees the whole thing anyway and loves us just the way we are.  Talking about these with an understanding friend can go a long way toward helping us, and as we will see later, a crucial ministry described in the NT.

  The deep relief we will feel from knowing that God is not trying to kill our personality, and truly is kind, will set us to singing a song of joy in his direction.  He does not want to shame us for our inadequcies, the way the Assembly did, but wants to shield us as a good parent would.

   We have to develop a habit of believing in the God who is our dearest friend, wants us to succeed, and cares deeply about us.  It is the conscious practical trust in my daily experience of this love that will reach down into the depths of the inner life to bring healing and harmony to my soul.

                                           God Bless,  Mark C.

Amen brother. The key word in all this in my view is freedom.
It was absent in the assemblies.
Why? George himself was a slave to sin.
Verne

p.s. It is kind of amazing how the puppets of George and Betty Geftakys were trained to designate as the "self-life" anything opposed to the will of those two.
Strange, for the Bible tells us what evidence of the carnal nature are:

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like

These enterpising folk managed to make it apply to matters of where you lived, whom you married, where you worked, what you read, how you thought....ad nauseam...and some of us stupidly accepted this...

[Mark C.]

Thanks Verne!

  I want to step back for a bit and try to summarize what I think the value of this thread, Wounded Pilgrims, is to me.  I hope that you, and others, will make comments as you see fit.

  A lot of what I argue for here on this thread is provoked by some strong disagreements I have had on previous BB's, and even some e-mail's I get now.

  I don't know about others, but this "provocation" has been good for me, because it makes me think whether my position has any validity, or if I need to re-think it. 

  Most of all I want to know what Jesus would think of the whole situation----- the closer we get to that means we not only provide ourselves a great blessing, but can be a blessing to others.

[u]1.) Spiritual Abuse:[/u]:

  There are some Evangelical Christians who do not believe in any such thing as "spiritual abuse."  One author of a book review on Ronald Enroth's book on recovery from abuse likened those telling their stories of abuse in churches to Judas Iscariot and his betrayl of Christ.

 Basically, he believed these were just stories of disgruntled former members who were blaming others for their own failure to be loyal to Christ.  Though he didn't know one of these individuals in Enroth's book, or their actual experiences, he was able to divine their true heart, and character. (a truly amazing fellow  )

  I recently received an email from a former member of the Assembly who suggested that GG was not really evil and that we needed to take responsibility as being the only ones culpable for our involvement in the group.  We were deceived by GG because we wanted to be, or were to weak to speak out against him.

  There is a range of opinion re. the Assembly that at one extreme sees it as Devilish evil and on the other end as just a normal evangelical church that had a few problems.  Some see it as a classic cult and others as a group on the right track, but whose main leader had a moral "slip".

  The problem with taking the "Devilish evil" position is that there were many truly born again Christians in the Assembly.  There was gospel truth proclaimed, and some did get saved as well (though precious few for all the preaching we did). 

  I know of one sister who told me, "the Assembly was good for me, because it rescued me from an undisciplined Christain life and saved me from some bad habits."  She sees through it now, but believes God used it in her life for good.

  If we just look at the group, and the whole area of "spiritual" abuse, from the perspective of our own personal experience we will all be able to come up with some good and some bad.  Obviously, those who had a particulary difficult time (like Judy and Rachel) will have the worse opinions, and those who saw through the whole thing and got out early will be more likely to remember some of the good times.

  Another person told me that they really got to learn the bible from their Assembly experience and saw it as kind of a seminary instruction time. (would that make time in the J.W's also of God because they spend a lot of time studying the bible and enforcing strong discipline?)

   A better way to approach the discovery of the truth, as to where the Assembly is in the above continuum, is to ask the question,"how does God see the situation?"

   I have tried on this thread to provide Biblical support for my view that Jesus and the Apostles were very aware of the potential for the church to become an organization, that instead of building up the members, actually could become destructive to an individual's spiritual well being. 

   When I mention these passages, and my interpretation of them, I have not, to my recollection, received one disagreement re. my use of these verses, in so far as they are demonstrative of my point.  My opinions are challenged, but no offer is given of how my view of the bible is in error.

  Now, I know my opinions are filled with all kinds of bias, and probably my interpretations of scripture are tainted with prejudice as well, and I often misunderstand a point someone is trying to make.  But, this is what makes a BB so valuable because we can ask the question together: How does God look at this situation?  This is a powerful force to get us to drop our bias (either good or bad) and try to understand the truth in the matter.  Humility, if nothing else, can be gained from a willingness to talk through a matter like this.

 The  value of understanding how God views the Assembly is not just an excercise in futility, or of small value for the evangelical community, but one that brings us to truly being a blessing to our fellow believers.

  It is not just fringe churches and wacko cults that have the ability to damage God's children, but the subtle power of certain teaching and practices that we can see highlighted for us in the Assembly.  These subtle forces find easy root in evangelical churches as well, because getting off track can sound so much like we are truly following God ( "who has bewithched you?!")  The NT is filled with instruction along the lines of "destroy not your brother."

  Cults and fringe group members thrive on the feeling of being on the cutting edge of what God is doing.  These groups meet a spiritual need we have to excel in our pursuit of God, to have a life that serves a higher purpose, and to experience the deep personal satisfaction that comes from this. 

  When we use good bible words like, "holiness, commitment, submission, humility, self sacrafice, laying down our lives, reckon dead, etc." it is very difficult to see how these things could ever be harmful.  Like the above reviewer of Enroth's book we see a Christian claiming abuse as merely rejecting a call to be loyal to Christ by submission in his Christian church, and thus a Judas.

   However, the subtle power to abuse comes from the shifting of the true meaning of the above words to take the novice by guile, with the intention of bringing them into bondage.  The simple member who comes to the group with a hunger to serve God has this spiritual desire manipulated to meet the needs of the leader and his group; while the individual is weakened and damaged in the process.

  Next I will discuss what is damaged in the lives of those who are taken captive and spiritually abused.

                                    God Bless,  Mark C.   

[M2]

  I recently received an email from a former member of the Assembly who suggested that GG was not really evil and that we needed to take responsibility as being the only ones culpable for our involvement in the group.  We were deceived by GG because we wanted to be, or were to weak to speak out against him.

What was there to be deceived about, or to speak out against him if he was not evil eh??
True re. our responsibility and weakness.  However  if we were to speak out while in the group, the very same individual will likely say "all churches have problems", and thus we would get into this 'circular reasoning' type logic.

Mark, I agree with your approach as to how does the Lord view what the Geftakys assemblies were/are and how do the Scriptures validate/invalidate their continuance/existence, and how do we then deal with what we experienced while we were involved with the group.

The  value of understanding how God views the Assembly is not just an excercise in futility, or of small value for the evangelical community, but one that brings us to truly being a blessing to our fellow believers.

  It is not just fringe churches and wacko cults that have the ability to damage God's children, but the subtle power of certain teaching and practices that we can see highlighted for us in the Assembly.  These subtle forces find easy root in evangelical churches as well, because getting off track can sound so much like we are truly following God ( "who has bewithched you?!")  The NT is filled with instruction along the lines of "destroy not your brother."

  Cults and fringe group members thrive on the feeling of being on the cutting edge of what God is doing.  These groups meet a spiritual need we have to excel in our pursuit of God, to have a life that serves a higher purpose, and to experience the deep personal satisfaction that comes from this. 

  When we use good bible words like, "holiness, commitment, submission, humility, self sacrafice, laying down our lives, reckon dead, etc." it is very difficult to see how these things could ever be harmful.  Like the above reviewer of Enroth's book we see a Christian claiming abuse as merely rejecting a call to be loyal to Christ by submission in his Christian church, and thus a Judas.

   However, the subtle power to abuse comes from the shifting of the true meaning of the above words to take the novice by guile, with the intention of bringing them into bondage.  The simple member who comes to the group with a hunger to serve God has this spiritual desire manipulated to meet the needs of the leader and his group; while the individual is weakened and damaged in the process.

Matt 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from men; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Matt 23:14 [ "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, even while for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you shall receive greater condemnation.]

Matt 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel about on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Marcia

[lenore]

 :)April 2nd:

There is another passage in Matthew: {the address and street number eludes me at the moment]]

Does Jesus say: He was holding a child with a warning, that anyone who stumbles  one of his little ones, itsn't better that he put a millstone around his neck, and throw him self in a well.
......in other words...it was better that a person not live, if he has mislead a child of God.

Christian, especially new Christians, we are God's children... those who have deceived those children, in a false christianity religion...they are the ones who are responsible ... especially like those who have never had a christian up bringing, or attended another church...
those ones who enter the GG organization... cold...were the ones who are feeling the worse of betrayal than those who have had a church background, even those who were not really involved...
Maybe I am not making it too clear... the ones who have had a previous church background, whether it was sunday school, youth group, had a harder time of submitting their wills, because we some how knew it was wrong, and never fully accepted the assembly way of doing things.
But there are those who came from a different background, who didnt have another way of teachings, only those of the assembly..so what was their pattern to follow.. the ones who were being taught.
Leader like GG. had a religion background, he went to school, he obviously studied his Bible.. taught from it. It was his interpretation of that teaching. It was so much the God rules. it was the man made rules that was being taught, getting control over the people, and ultimately his own down fall.
It is sad, because alot of people have been saved, but to what, to fall by the way side for the birds to eat the seeds. 

Like in Matthew and Jesus warning. GG has a lot to answer for when it comes to his turn to stand in front of the judgement seat, and explain his actions.
Just like the rest of us, and you know what, when it is our turn, we cannot point fingers and said he made me do it. It will be our actions and what we have done with the knowledge we
have been given. God will not hold any one accountable what you didnt know. Only for what you do know and what you did with it.

[Mark C.]

:)April 2nd:
Maybe I am not making it too clear... the ones who have had a previous church background, whether it was sunday school, youth group, had a harder time of submitting their wills, because we some how knew it was wrong, and never fully accepted the assembly way of doing things.
But there are those who came from a different background, who didnt have another way of teachings, only those of the assembly..so what was their pattern to follow.
Like in Matthew and Jesus warning. GG has a lot to answer for when it comes to his turn to stand in front of the judgement seat, and explain his actions.
Just like the rest of us, and you know what, when it is our turn, we cannot point fingers and said he made me do it. It will be our actions and what we have done with the knowledge we
have been given. God will not hold any one accountable what you didnt know. Only for what you do know and what you did with it.

 Thanks Lenore  !

  I think you are were very clear in making your point and I agree that previous Christian experience made a positive difference for some of the former members.

  However, there were some who did have previous Christian involvements who subdued their doubts and continued to submit to GG.  Some of these were quickly promoted as leaders and preferred to enjoy the status their positions gave them, vs. just being an attendee of a normal church.

   The above squelching of conscience to achieve a place of position in a group is an example of  one kind of damage to the soul that was accomplished in the Assembly.  I would say that it is the worse kind of damage because pride has the distinction of earning the title of "the sin of the Devil."

   I need at this point to try and explain what I mean by "emotional damage" and what that has to do with faith,  because it is such a controversial issue.

 I believe that an understanding of our humanity is not contrary to spirituality, nor a hindrance to faith, but key to a strong faith.  I am not trying to suggest that the Gospel be "psychologized" or that "wordly" philosophy be used in our understanding of a life of faith.  Rather, that we see ourselves as God created us: individual persons with minds and hearts.

  When we think of "emotion" or "feeling", and try to understand these terms in a spiritual context, it is often said that in order to follow God by faith that we must not follow this "inner" guidance because this is an unreliable means to discover the Spirit's guidance.  We are told that we must "set this aside" and obey our clear reasoned understanding of God's word.

 Before we decide whether the above is true we must explain what we mean by the terms above.  On some levels of emotional experience it is absolutely true that we best not follow every feeling.  If I "feel" bad because of a depressed mood it is not due to God's disapproval of me, nor when I "feel" good is it an indication that God is for me.  I know God loves me because the Bible says so, not because I feel it, but this is not the only function of emotion in our lives.

 
   My understanding of the Bible tells me that God does not chop us up into categories like: mind, conscience, heart, feeling, etc., though these individual parts are mentioned, they are part of a integrated whole that is what God has saved.  Each part has a necessary function, and must work together in proper balance for us to truly live spiritual lives.

   The bible says that the "Gentiles are past feeling," and uses the term "feeling," to describe a moral sensitivity to what is good or bad.
It does not say that the Gentiles are "past reasoning," because they may have excellent minds, but their powers of reasoning are tainted by their lack of sensitivity in their conscience to moral considerations.  This condition actually "darkens their minds" and causes their reasoning to be in error.

  With the former unrepentant Assembly leader, (as seen above) who hardened his conscience to feed his ego, recovery will mean that this sensitivity (feeling) must be restored.  We know that some have left in this state, (or who are still in the group) and who stoutly reject any attempts at entreaty, and have only feelings of pity for the way former members have treated them (and with not a smidgen of feeling toward those that they mistreated while on their climb up GG's ladder)! 

  One such brother called me up on the phone to "make things right" when he heard that I had problems with his conduct at my forcing out from the group.  When I tried to address what I felt needed to be "made right" the brother blocked my e-mail address and refused to continue the conversation.  His language was filled with "spiritual words and phrases" but his "faith" was misguided because of a darkened inner state that prevented honest Christian reason and relationship.

  Now, I am not saying that my view of the situation between us is "the only truth", in the sense that I have achieved a totally pure heart, and thus am the only honest arbitrator in the matter.  However, his lack of willingness to consider any of what I said, and to enter into any discussion re. it, reveals the chief influences in his life: wisdom that refuses entreaty is not "from above" but from a darkened source.

  The damage he received in the Assembly was the "making" of an inner life that was shaped by pride.  He has constructed an image of a spiritual self that he is holding on to for dear life, and he is deathly afraid to let go of, lest any see him as he really is: just  a regular weak human being who often fails (like the rest of us).

  We see this attempt at unmasking in the Gospels between Jesus and the Pharisees all the time, and the problem is never that the Jewish leaders had problems with reasoning; their problem was a moral callousness (lack of feeling) that prevented good reasoned faith.

  So, we can see that "feeling" has a much wider definition than it is somtimes given when it is only assigned to such conditions as euphoria or depression.  Feelings can be self centered, and have detrimental effects on one's life of faith, or they can be filled with passion to help others in their lives--- and thus empower one's life as a Christian.   "Faith works by love" and this directs our emotions from a self centered pre-occupation to one that represents the life of God.   

   One could say that: "it seems it would be more accurate to say that the above former Assembly leader has a moral problem and not an emtional one."  My answer is that morality has an emotional component in our lives, and must be addressed (mind and heart).  Proper balance has to be restored for us to live happy and meaningful Christian lives and this will mean that we must address what's inside as well as getting a handle on doctrinal issues.

  Resolving these issues will be different for each individual, and though I talk in generalities re. certain types of former Assembly members, I do not intend to make these general comments sweeping in nature.  I will discuss other kinds of emotional damage in further posts.  Your comments are very helpful and appreciated.

                                                   God Bless,  Mark C.

[summer007]

Marc, I think there is such a vast difference for someone who has left the assm prior to the big fall-out, as well as someone who was in 1-5 years  single and the people who were in for 20-25 years and have spent most of their lives there with families. I would think their would be alot of turmoil over the wasted time and money. It also seems alot harder for a family to leave, as opposed to someone single who could just make other arrangements. Just a thought.( I think a couple might think the "enemy" was working over-time if one did want to leave) I remember alot of warning signs, and thinking well I really need to bear the Cross, til it was un-bearable I reallly did'nt like the place anymore, and stopped giving thithes. It also helped I  knew other Christians and was in a wedding with normal people this really helped the lights to come on, and see how strange the place was. I knew I'd never return there, if I ever had a thought of returning I'd think I'd rather sleep on the street then be in that bondage again. Also I felt like just going for God's Grace.  Summer. (For my yoke is EASY, and my BURDEN is Light.) matt11:30 Jesus Christ.

[summer007]

p.s. At the risk that the last post came across as really arrogant. I will confess to asking for prayer over the years up until about 10-12 years ago. At that time I saw the group as really Legalistic, but still Christian. I did'nt know all about the inner-workings.( Hindsight is 20/20.) And that it was a full-blown cult.( I'm sure I was really bashed.) At any rate it is something I want to forget about. Life is too good to spend in the past.  Summer

[Oscar]

Mark,

You said:

"  We see this attempt at unmasking in the Gospels between Jesus and the Pharisees all the time, and the problem is never that the Jewish leaders had problems with reasoning; their problem was a moral callousness (lack of feeling) that prevented good reasoned faith.

I know that you quoted a passage that said that the gentiles were "past feeling".  However, the last time I checked, the Jewish leaders of Christ's day weren't Gentiles.   

The problem with the Jewish leaders was that they did have a problem with reasoning.  They reasoned from false premises.  That is to say, they used religious beliefs that were not true as premises in their logic.

Feelings are the "flavor" of our inner life.  But feelings have no informational content.  You can react on the basis of a feeling, but you can't reason from them. 

  So, we can see that "feeling" has a much wider definition than it is somtimes given when it is only assigned to such conditions as euphoria or depression.  Feelings can be self centered, and have detrimental effects on one's life of faith, or they can be filled with passion to help others in their lives--- and thus empower one's life as a Christian.   "Faith works by love" and this directs our emotions from a self centered pre-occupation to one that represents the life of God.   

Actually, love has a moral aspect, (we are required to love), an intellectual aspect, (we must decide what acts would be genuine expressions of love), a volitional aspect, (we must decide to actually act upon what we know is right and profitable, and an emotional aspect, (we "feel" love toward another).

Seems to me you've got the caboose at the head of the train.

Look at the phrase you mention above.  "Faith works by love".   Faith starts with the perception of truth from God's word read or heard, develops as we understand what that truth means and how it is to be applied, and is acted upon by the will.  We "love and serve" one another because we know that God loves us, and we participate in His love as we obey him.  Then, usually but not always, the emotions of "loving" are released in us. 

Example: When you had to get up early and go to work to earn money to feed and clothe your kids.  You did it because you loved them.  But there were plenty of mornings when you didn't have the "feeling" of love as you climbed out of bed.  But you did it anyway...out of love....but apart from the feeling of love, ie, the emotions we associate with love.

Reminds me of the time I saw Billy and Ruth Graham being interviewed on TV.  The guy asked Ruth Graham if she had ever considered divorce.  Her answer was, "Divorce...no.   Murder....yes."

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

[Mark C.]

Thanks Tom.

  I'm glad that you returned to this conversation as you have raised some very important points that I would like to respond to.

  Unfortunately, I am not going to have enough time until next weekend to respond fully.  I can only make a couple of quick responses to some of your challenges to my previous post.

    The "past feeling" phrase was indeed referring to the Gentiles, but the application of the principles found in that verse apply to any soul walking in darkness: hardness of heart is not hardness of mind only, and the Apostle is trying to make the point of what hinders any soul from coming to a place of correct understanding re. life in God.

  Re. the order of "reason, will, behavior, feelings" and how they function in the life of faith:

    I do not believe that the analogy of train cars is a good one when referring to a person of faith.  All of these parts are necessary for a person to advance in fatih and each has some locomotive power.  In other words, we don't drag the emotions along at the tail end.

   A better analogy, IMHO, would be that all the parts above form the locomotive itself: one is a piston, the other a crankshaft, one a transmission, and maybe one a wheel.  This means the thing won't run at all without each part in good working order.

  We are whole human beings, and without a mind we could not be human, but without emotions we also would lack a crucial component to be considered human.

   The first work of the Holy Spirit is the conviction of sin.  This obviously will take some measure of intellectual activity, but primarily awakens moral sensitivity to our own sinfulness.  This most certainly will not happen without feeling a sense that something is wrong within my soul.

 With most of us our reaction to this bad feeling is a desire to find relief.  Thus, God uses our emotions to stir us to cry (like the Roms. 8 groanings) out and find salvation.  I would consider this a far more emotional experience than an intellectual one.

  The appeal of God is to the heart, which includes the mind, but primarily reaches out to the moral center of our being, which is our conscience. 

   If God's approach to us was on the basis of our intellectual ability then many of us would be in big trouble (some may include me in this troubled group  ).  Some of us are much better at philosphy than others, but what makes us equally human, and valuable to God, is our moral capabilities.

  Hardened hearts do not have a relationship with God, while sensitive hearts do.  Sensitivity is an emotional adjunct to the conscience.  Those that do not "feel" bad when they sin become social monsters (sociopaths). 

   This tender conscience is not a "caboose",  but an integral part of true spirituality, and without which we can not experience the life of God.

                                                              God Bless,  Mark C.

[Oscar]

Mark,

I think that you are assigning a definition to "heart" that is erroneous.  Heart can mean different things in different contexts.  It frequently is used to describe the inclination of the life towards or away from God. 

"Their hearts were hardened" does not mean that sinners have no feelings.  It just means that they stubbornly resist God, no matter how he communicates his truth to them.  In fact, they can be filled with feelings of disgust and disdain when told the truth.

Let's say that you are walking in the woods.  You come around a curve in the trail, and there is a grizzly bear coming in the opposite direction about 15 feet away.

1. You see it.   In other words, your sense of vision tells you that there is a big hairy toothy thing in front of you.

2. You believe the information of your senses.

3. All sorts of alarms go off in your body and mind.  One of them is a sense of alarm and fear.

1. Perception of truth.  2. Faith in truth.  3. Feeling of alarm.

This happens because of our habitual response to what we see.


But here is another scenario. 

You see a magician.  You see him saw a woman in half.  At least, that is what it looks like to you.

But, you dont believe it.  And therefore you are not filled with emotions of horror, as you would be if you believed it had really happened.

This is because we filter out what we seem to see because we refuse to believe what our eyes are telling us.  We habitually doubt "magic" tricks because we are predisposed to doubt, we don't believe in magic.

But, what if one day some guy actually sawed a girl in half?  Unless what we saw and heard was different, we would not feel anything at all.  Our habitual response to this sort of thing would determine our feelings, at least until we knew more.

So, habit enters in.  Over time we build up habitual associations with certain experiences. 

When someone from an assembly past,( or any other abusive past),  says that they "can't" believe God or obey him, what is really going on is that they have built up a very powerful habitual negative reaction to certain things.

Their feelings are actually betraying them!  They need to "be transformed by the renewing of your minds".  That is why obeying the directions of Philippians 4:8 is so crucial.

You cannot overcome negative emotions by wishing them away, or by praying them away, or by willing them away.  You deal with bad mental habits by obeying God and presenting the intellect with positive truth, over and over again.  You "overcome evil with good."

The goal of spiritual instruction is spiritual maturity.  Abusive groups hold people in spiritual childhood.  These folks need to grow in grace.

Old saying: "If you do what you've always done, you will get what you've always got."

Thomas Maddux

[vernecarty]

Mark,

I think that you are assigning a definition to "heart" that is erroneous.  Heart can mean different things in different contexts. Thomas Maddux

Mark and Tom:
What faculty do you think Scripture is referring to in Proverbs 4:23 when it uses the term heart?

Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.

Do you believe it has an equivalent physiological or psychological descriptor so far as our intellectual understanding of human nature is concerned? I don't have a clear answer for this but was curious as to what you both think.
Verne

p.s. Clearly some believe that God is speaking about  our literal heart, the implication being that God views this particular organ in far more than a merely biological (an instrument for propelling blood throught the system) capacity...unless of course you believe that Proverbs is merly advocating for cardio-vascular fitness...