WOUNDED PILGRIMS

[Mark C.]

Mark,

I think that you are assigning a definition to "heart" that is erroneous.  Heart can mean different things in different contexts.  It frequently is used to describe the inclination of the life towards or away from God. 

Let's say that you are walking in the woods.  You come around a curve in the trail, and there is a grizzly bear coming in the opposite direction about 15 feet away.

1. You see it.   In other words, your sense of vision tells you that there is a big hairy toothy thing in front of you.

2. You believe the information of your senses.

3. All sorts of alarms go off in your body and mind.  One of them is a sense of alarm and fear.

1. Perception of truth.  2. Faith in truth.  3. Feeling of alarm.

This happens because of our habitual response to what we see.


But, what if one day some guy actually sawed a girl in half?  Unless what we saw and heard was different, we would not feel anything at all.  Our habitual response to this sort of thing would determine our feelings, at least until we knew more.

So, habit enters in.  Over time we build up habitual associations with certain experiences. 

When someone from an assembly past,( or any other abusive past),  says that they "can't" believe God or obey him, what is really going on is that they have built up a very powerful habitual negative reaction to certain things.

Their feelings are actually betraying them!  They need to "be transformed by the renewing of your minds".  That is why obeying the directions of Philippians 4:8 is so crucial.

You cannot overcome negative emotions by wishing them away, or by praying them away, or by willing them away.  You deal with bad mental habits by obeying God and presenting the intellect with positive truth, over and over again.  You "overcome evil with good."

The goal of spiritual instruction is spiritual maturity.  Abusive groups hold people in spiritual childhood.  These folks need to grow in grace.

Old saying: "If you do what you've always done, you will get what you've always got."

Thomas Maddux

 Very clear explanation of your thinking Tom, and I'm sorry that it has taken so long for me to get back to this discussion.

  I am not clear how my view of the "heart" is "erroneous", however,  maybe you could explain how our views differ.  I may have a more complex view than yours ( or convoluted  ) but I agree with the aspect of heart that you described as "inclination" as being important to the definition of what the bible calls the "heart."

  Your example of the "Grizzly" makes sense, given the strict paramaters that you assign to it, but I think it fails in the real world of faith and emotions because it excludes the complexity of the human soul.

  I'd like to expand upon your example by adding some additional angles that might better describe an abusive scenario.

    I read a brochure about taking a vacation in a federal park in Alaska that is put out by the government.  They talk of all the wonders and joys of visiting, and describe it all with glorious photos.

   I have some worries about the dangers of bears, and so call the State tourism board where I am assured that the park is very safe and that nothing will happen to me.  I trust these officials---taking their statements as authoritative, and believing that they are reliable; only motivated by what is best for me.

  When I arrive at the park, on the very first night, a grizzly bear enters my tent and kills one of my children and badly injures the rest of us.

  When I confront the Park Rangers about their assurances of safety in the woods they begin to turn the tables on me by suggesting that it was my fault because eveyone knows that grey colored tents provoke grizzly bears and that I should have known better.  Every argument I make is turned around on me and I am blamed for the unfortunate event.

  I now question the motives of the officials, and after talking to some locals discover that for each visitor to the park a bonus is paid to the State officials and local park rangers.  I also now understand that they fear that their false motives will be discovered, and this is why they try to cover-up and blame me for the tragedy. 

 They are more interested in the perpetuation of the false image of safety of the Park because they gain from it, and could really care less about visitors.  Possibly, some of the officials actually believe this propaganda as well.

  I will guarantee you that I will not visit that Park again, and probably will avoid anything that looks like a forest where a grizzly bear might live, even if the most reasonable arguments and reliable data could prove it grizzly bear free!

  You see, some of us really did get sawed up in the Assembly, and this was done by those claiming Biblical authority, and of whom we trusted spoke the truth of God--- We relied on this---- and because of that we are not likely to trust those trying to lead us down the logical path to higher divine wisdom that they proffer.

  It is not that these former Assembly members do not believe in God, it is that they refuse to be herded down a logical maze by those who claim to know what God is telling them to believe.  They see that guy up on the stage with the saw and it looks very much like the saw that cut them by the last magican show they were in.

  These fears are controlling their hearts and reasonable arguments in many cases will not be enough to pull them out of the pit they find themselves in--- they are overcome with grief and recovery from this condition needs a kind listening ear that acknowledges that their pain is real and that God has deep empathy for them as well.  They need to know that God is not interested in instructing them at this moment, but comforting them--- and yes, helping them to feel better.

  There is a place to teach reasonable doctrine, but sometimes we just need to "weep with those that weep."  Jesus taught, but he also held children in his arms and blessed them, wept at a funeral, allowed a prostitute to wash his feet with her tears, let a disciple lean on his breast, touched lepers, chased out money changers from the temple in anger, etc.

 In other words, Jesus was not a man of pure reason, and most of those placing faith in him were not great students of philosophy or theology.  He attracted those with deep emotional needs, as with most of us when we were saved, and that is the connection with God that the Assembly most deeply hurt.  Though most certainly our thinking must be renewed we also must recover that emotional connection that first drew us to God in the first place.

  C.S. Lewis was a great thinker, but he also was "surprised by joy" at his salvation, because it was the joy that satisfied a very important part of who he was as a person of faith.  Emotion is more than flavor as it is an intergral part of human spirituality that is essential to a healthy Christian life.

  Hearing the teaching that God loves me, and reciting it like the Rosary over and over again, will not strengthen the inner man because it ignores the depth in my soul.  This is why we have the Psalms to help us in our faith as well as the book of Romans.

  "Crying out from the depths" is purely emotional, but we sometimes need to let it all hang out before God, because our rational abilities are wracked by the circumstances of life to the point where we are overwhelmed. 

                                     God Bless,  Mark C.
 
 

[Mark C.]

Home at last!

  I understand that Tom is busy now, and can't respond to my posts, but of course that will not keep me from carrying on the discussion without him  .

  Verne asked earlier on this thread about what the Bible means when it uses the word, "heart", and that seems to be where this stream of thought is taking us.

  I would like to ask the help of all who wish to engage in understanding this to throw in with a line or two.  I am not a Biblical scholar, or a psychologist, but I do have some opinions on the subject that might be helpful.

  Scripture often uses the phrase, when describing inner life, of "mind and heart."  This would seem to indicate, as I've already mentioned in previous posts, that there are distinctions between the two.

  I do believe, however, that is wrong to attach scientific precision to the definitions of these words (mind, heart, etc.) as if they form a strictly separate function in our lives.

  We generally think of love when we think of the heart,  and love is certainly a central theme of NT teaching and is The center of all Christian living, or at least it should be our goal.

  When we talk about emotion it can have negative or positive aspects; emotions can also be mature or immature---- as in: we expect children to cry at the least little thing, but for adults this would not be good.

  It may be that there are former members of the Assembly who just need to develop more mature control over their emotional state; but even this emotional immaturity is the result of being in the Assembly. 

  If these former members are controlled by negative emotions they know that this is not good and have tried to solve this problem using the only way they know how-----

They will choose again and again the failing ways that have been taught them in the Assembly as the only true Christian means for "victory."

    "How do you know this Mark?", some may ask.  Besides the many former members I have talked with, and those from similar groups, I have my own "testimony" to give.

   Much of inner life is automatic ( Tom would say "habit.") and reacts to life without a lot of thinking.  When a person has been trained for decades in an intensive toxic religiosity it takes deep root in the soul.

 I may now know that God is loving and gracious, but if I had been trained that when I sin God leaves me, my first inner reaction will be one of a feeling of worthlessness.  If I hear a passage preached, that GG twisted into a means to shame me, it will be impossible for me to just sit and listen to that verse without feeling badly.

  So yes, we must try to deal with negative feelings, if they are controlling our lives, but for most former cult/abusive church members just attending a "good healthy church", where we hear "good teaching", and being told to allow a better perspective to control will not suffice.

  Each individual is different and struggles with different things, but there needs to be a place where these folks can just talk and have a compassionate ear to listen to them.

  One such person, who had been infected deeply with "deeper life" teaching, was always trying to attain to a state of Christian Nirvana.  In this state he believed that all would be pure within and this would be the result of a life controlled by the HS.  He was always trying to learn the tricky inner doings that would release God's power in his life.

                                This person is I!

  I know that my former teaching is erroneous, and could quote you reams of Biblical evidence to back-up my thinking, however when certain things happen in my day I very often react badly .  A series of reactions start when I run into frustrations, being treated badly, etc.

  Bible reading, prayer, devotions, strong determination, etc. do not stop these instant reactions all by themselves.

  Now, I don't want you to despair over the condition of your Global Moderator too much  , because I am doing much better than in the past--- did I ever tell you the story when I was in the Assembly and almost hit a guy over the head with a tire iron?   No, I didn't do it, but I came close, and if it had happened I would be Moderating from a prison cell today!!

  Emotions can be controlled and our inner life can be healthy, balanced, though we have an entrenched inner psychological "inclincation" to automatic bad religion.  More on this later.

                                            God Bless,  Mark C. 
   

[Mark C.]

The "more later"

  Yes, much of what I write here is reflective of my own struggles with recovery from my Assembly past.

  I recognize that there are those from the Assembly who did not fall head first into deeper life teaching, nor did they come to the Assembly from Eastern Religion like I had.  This was my "set-up" and because of that I see things from a perspective that may seem different than others.

  But, whatever angle kept you in the group (some for decades) you can't just walk away without recognizing that you were involved with something that was unhealthy spiritually; and this was not just detrimental to your powers of reason.

  One of the clear indications that we were involved in a cursed way is the terrible dishonesty of life we learned to accept as the way of life.  We professed one thing while within we were just regular ol' sinners.

   "But, aren't Christians to live holy lives?"  Yes, but holiness is not phoniness.  Humility is just the result of facing the honest facts of who we are and this will also give us a tenderness in our hearts toward those who struggle as we do.

    When we lived in the Assembly we had to disguise who we really were and this is a very unhealthy game to play.  When we closed our eyes to evil, and excused it in ourselves and others, we not only are cut off from grace we also become less human-----less sensitive to the needs of others.

   As I said earlier this can make monsters out of some, and with those whose conscience is still active, it creates a constant despair over one's ability to "enter into the victory."

  A lack of awareness of the wounding power of Assembly like teaching and practices, by even those who used to be in the group, is a symptom that the damage within is extensive.

 A ho-hum attitude that can't see what the fuss is all about on this topic shows a shocking lack of discernment and sensitivity that is linked to what the group did to disconnect us from God's Spirit.

  Sensitivity to the Spirit is not only fidelity to an orthodox faith, which many of us basically had while in the group.  What we professed, and how we lived our lives was a world apart, and Jesus did say we are his disciples if we do what we are commanded.

  Yes, we must understand first what the truth is, but if the fruit of our professed faith is not loving  (it was quite the contrary), then we are not expressing God's heart.

  Does God have emotion?  Does he love us with a cold and distant reason that prevents any feelings between us?  Does God really care about our happiness, or is this a low emotion that is only associated with unsaved worldlings?

  God does have feelings towards us: you are very deeply loved and valued---- and we must believe this vs. searching for a confirming emotion within to verify this fact of our faith.  It is very true that feelings must follow these facts, but that doesn't mean that our emotions don't have a very important part to play in what our Christian character will be.

  I can hold my faith in a cold kind of logic that I may be able to argue well, but in my behavior exhibit a callous disregard to those around me.  I can also have a kind of faith that believes correctly, but cover up a hidden life of sin that I desperately hope that none discover.  This leads to the creation of GG like monsters of evil.

  Jesus had a passionate faith that caused him to weep, get angry, show great tenderness, and eventually to accept our sin as his own!!  His faith ignited his soul with powerful emotion and incited this emotion in others as well.

 Peter did not see Jesus on the shore in John 21 and say in a dispassionate manner "that looks like Jesus on the shore", but jumped in the water and swam to the beach!  There was clearly an emotional attachment that he had, and it was Jesus that clarified that with him in that chapter by asking him, "lovest thou me?"  He did not quiz Peter on his orthodoxy, but on his affection for him.

      It is this unrelenting love of God that will not let us go that really is the power of God in our lives.  To believe that this is true after a big failure in your life (like Peter), or through all the little one's in our daily life, is where that love can really change us. 

   This love relationship does need a strong foundation of truth discovered by understanding the Gospel, but there is the passion of God behind that truth, and we need to both believe, and let it bring peace and joy to our inner life.   

  Have a great week in the knowledge that God does have a specific empathy: this simply means he feels your pain and very much wants to comfort and help you.

                                             God Bless,  Mark C.

[vernecarty]

The "more later"

 
  A lack of awareness of the wounding power of Assembly like teaching and practices, by even those who used to be in the group, is a symptom that the damage within is extensive.

Mark I see this a bit differently. I can only surmise that you are attempting to be gracious in your characterization by use of the expression "a lack of awareness".
Even the most tentative application of the rules of evidence, would convince the staunchest sceptic, that the assemblies indeed inflicted wounds by their teaching and practices.
We have the public exposure of the man who founded them as a man of terribly depraved passions, along with incontrovertible evidence of habitual and long-standing venial sin.
You have the personal witness of literally scores of Christians, who have attested, in the mouth of two or three witness, to the frightful grievances committed against them by those in responisbility in the assemblies.
In addition to the personal testimony, you also have the broken lives...
You have the witness of Christian men of spiritual stature and proven service, of credentialed professionals who are trained to make assessments of this nature.
You have the witness of the men so charged with responsibility, who in a consent decree of sorts, simply walked away from thie "great work" when all these things became public knowldge.
I could go on but why belabor the point?
This raises a fundamental question.
Given the nature of the existing evidence regarding the person who started the assemblies and the impact they have had on the lives of so many, can the argument be made that someone brazenly defending a system such as this does so merly as a result of a "lack of awareness"?!
I will confess I have in the past attributed such a thing to unadulterated stupidity.
I have accordingly employed such words as "doltish", "moronic", "idiotic", "imbecilic" etc. etc.
While this is indeed strong language they do not in any way do justice to the enormity of what happened in the assemblies.
Not only do those words not do justice to what happened, I am personally convinced that  they do not provide an adequate explanation for why a person would deny the conclusion so clearly warranted by the evidence.

A ho-hum attitude that can't see what the fuss is all about on this topic shows a shocking lack of discernment and sensitivity that is linked to what the group did to disconnect us from God's Spirit.

Folks, please listen to me. A ho-hum attitude shows more than a shocking lack of discernment.
It shows more that a frightful lack of sensitivity.
It has nothing to do with a lack of intelligence or even an ability to reason.

What is shows, more than anything else is a soul so defiled and so utterly corrupt,that it delights in the destruction of others!

These same filthy dreamers, are the same ones who would have counseled the injured, that for the sake of the "testimony" the awful cesspool should be covered. That rather than expose the fetid and festering sewer for what it was, it should preserved. The nature of their arguments warrant such a conclusion.

These kind of folk have given themselves to spiritual violence against all who have suffered under this system!

I would respecfully submit, that the proper way to describe an attitude like this is to conlude that it is evil.


Now there are some of you that think evil can be rehabilitated. I have watched with some dismay at your attempts.
I myself have fallen prey to the mistaken notion that you can shame wickedness into reformation.
None of these things are Biblically prescribed.
While it is true that we are are to resist evil (which many in the assemblies failed to do), ultimately God has to deliver us from it. How does God do this?

Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. Romans 12:21

Let me share a secret with you. Most people think this verse is a prescription for doing.
It is not. It is a prescription for being!

Unless you understand this, you will never understand why the men in the assemblies could not overcome a man like George, It had nothing to do with what they did, and everything to do with what they were!

If you are a wicked and evil person, no one, including yourself, can talk you into goodness.
We have seen any number of instances on this BB when presented with the perfect opportunity to display goodness, evil folk display what is truly inside. They cannot help it.
Conversely, if you are a good person, no one, including your worst enemy, can talk you into evil.
You are what you are.
How does one overcome evil in this world?
Simple. By being the kind of men and women God wants us to be.
It has nothing to do with talk.
The question is, when you are weighed in the balances, what will empty boasting avail?  A word to the wise...
Verne
                                             

[M2]

Today I read this by author and teacher Beth Moore:

Isaiah 61:1
They will rebuild the ancient ruins
  and restore the places long devasted;
They will renew the ruined cities
  that have been devasted for generations.
.....
1.  Agree to take an honest look back. Many well-meaning Christians take out of context the exhortation in Phil 3:13, "forgetting what is behind," and apply it as a command to never look at the past.  Paul was talking about all the trophies of life he had to leave behind in order to follow Christ.  God's Word clearly expresses what a good and effective teacher the past can be.  The past will be a good teacher if we will simply approach it as a good student, from the perspective of what we can gain and how God can use it for His glory.
.....
2.  Believe the truth over the enemy's lies.  If breaking the chain of bondage was impossible, God would never hold us responsible for repeating the sins of the past.
.....
3.  Discern the difference between rebuilding and preserving the ancient ruins. ... God never called us to preserve our ancient ruins.  Rather than inspect the ancient ruin and then work with God to rebuild, we just keep revisiting and preserving and we never get over it.  Without God, our only sure Restorer, that's about the best we can do.
.....
4.  Accept God's appointment as a reconstruction worker. ... I believe one reason God requires our cooperation is that He deeply desires our involvement with Him.  He created us for this purpose.  Rebuilding ancient ruins is impossible for us without God.  We are unqualified for the task; but as we draw near to Him, He rebuilds our lives and characters.  Remember, God's primary purpose in healing us from our hurts is to introduce us to new depths of relationship with Himself.
.....

Marcia

[M2]

From author/teacher Beth Moore:

Christ is never the author of abuse.  The Bible teaches us that some hardships are specifically ordained by God for the purpose of our growth and refining.  (Child) abuse is not one of them.  When you are trying to discern whether God or Satan is the author of hardship, one of your best clues is whether or not sin is involved.  God never entices us to sin nor does He employ sin or perversion as a means of molding us into the image of Christ.

[vernecarty]

From author/teacher Beth Moore:

Christ is never the author of abuse.  The Bible teaches us that some hardships are specifically ordained by God for the purpose of our growth and refining.  (Child) abuse is not one of them.  When you are trying to discern whether God or Satan is the author of hardship, one of your best clues is whether or not sin is involved.  God never entices us to sin nor does He employ sin or perversion as a means of molding us into the image of Christ.

Beth More sounds like someone I would like to get to know Marcia. What she talks about here is I think one of the worst things we learned under the tutelage of th likes of George and Betty.
One day Kurt and Andra's youngest daughter pulled the hair of her older sister and after consulting with Betty, Andra was instructed to pull the hair of the toddler. It seems to me firm but gentle instruction would have been preferable, enforced by a little hiny disipline if needed. Cruelty is in my view never godly.
I might add, this is the reason I made a recent apology on this board, not as has been repeatedly and falsely claimed, that I made statements that were untrue. Unkindness in one thing, lying is quite another.
There was something terribly wrong with the way Betty Geftakys thought.
Verne

[editor]

Beth More sounds like someone I would like to get to know Marcia. What she talks about here is I think one of the worst things we learned under the tutelage of th likes of George and Betty.
One day Kurt and Andra's youngest daughter pulled the hair of her older sister and after consulting with Betty, Andra was instructed to pull the hair of the toddler. It seems to me firm but gentle instruction would have been preferable, enforced by a little hiny disipline if needed. Cruelty is in my view never godly.
I might add, this is the reason I made a recent apology on this board, not as has been repeatedly and falsely claimed, that I made statements that were untrue. Unkindness in one thing, lying is quite another.
There was something terribly wrong with the way Betty Geftakys thought.
Verne

If I'm not mistaken, this hair pulling idea has been espoused by others, namely Debbie and Michael Perle.  (To Train up a Child, No Greater Joy)

While I don't think a toddler understands the finer points of this lesson if they are under two years old, I do think it can be a good thing to do to a 4 or 5 year old bully.

I'll never forget a time when a 7 year old was continually harrassing and oppressing our boy, who was then 9.  He was pulling his ears, his hair, hitting him, pinching him.....Shawn told him to stop at least a dozen times, and his mother, who was right there, also "reasoned" with the lad...but he wouldn't stop.

Shawn finally told him,  "next time you do it I'm going to hit back."  It took about a second until the next time and the younger boy found himself with a bloody nose.  The younger boy then had a tantrum and began to get really violent, trying to hit, scratch, claw, etc.  Shawn fended him off, and hit him a few more times, and he quieted right down.  No problems after that!

Brent

[vernecarty]

If I'm not mistaken, this hair pulling idea has been espoused by others, namely Debbie and Michael Perle.  (To Train up a Child, No Greater Joy)

While I don't think a toddler understands the finer points of this lesson if they are under two years old, I do think it can be a good thing to do to a 4 or 5 year old bully.

I'll never forget a time when a 7 year old was continually harrassing and oppressing our boy, who was then 9.  He was pulling his ears, his hair, hitting him, pinching him.....Shawn told him to stop at least a dozen times, and his mother, who was right there, also "reasoned" with the lad...but he wouldn't stop.

Shawn finally told him,  "next time you do it I'm going to hit back."  It took about a second until the next time and the younger boy found himself with a bloody nose.  The younger boy then had a tantrum and began to get really violent, trying to hit, scratch, claw, etc.  Shawn fended him off, and hit him a few more times, and he quieted right down.  No problems after that!

Brent

This is one of the few things my wife and I disagee about. (The other is no lethal weaapons in the house, not even shuriken! so forget about the Glock    )
As to how child a should respond to violence from another child, I think your boy got it right. I think that's a bit different coming from an adult, and especially with a toddler who may not quite get the lesson. I find it amazing that this went on in the presence of the parent but then I have seen similar neglect and failure to control little brats. In fact, I teach my girls to not give any warning or grace period on this kind of thing. If they are ever physically threatened in any way, they know what to do...and it is not to tell them never to do it again...
I consider it their civic duty to make sure that for anyone who puts their hands on them, they do their best to see that they do it to no one else.
As I said my wife thinks you should walk away. If you can sure....sometimes you cannnot, then what?
Verne

[M2]

The references to victimization/child-abuse, in the quotes from Beth Moore, can be applied to spiritual abuse as well, hence I post these here.

"I believe each of us who have been victimized in childhood can testify that the tendencies toward certain sins dramatically increase as a result.  As part of my healing, I had to take responsibility for my own sin, whether or not another person's actions escorted me to those sins. .... I don't think confessing sin that resulted from victimization is primarily about fault.  It is about freedom!

Yes, my sins were my own fault.  But more important to God, I believe, was my willingness to confess how badly I hated those sins and how I wanted to be free from the power the abuse held over my decisions.  Confession allowed me to bring sinful behaviors to the table for open discussion with God.  He instantly forgave me and completely cleansed me, then He began to teach me day-to-day how to change my responses."

[editor]

This is one of the few things my wife and I disagee about. (The other is no lethal weaapons in the house, not even shuriken! so forget about the Glock    )
As to how child a should respond to violence from another child, I think your boy got it right. I think that's a bit different coming from an adult, and especially with a toddler who may not quite get the lesson. I find it amazing that this went on in the presence of the parent but then I have seen similar neglect and failure to control little brats. In fact, I teach my girls to not give any warning or grace period on this kind of thing. If they are ever physically threatened in any way, they know what to do...and it is not to tell them never to do it again...
I consider it their civic duty to make sure that for anyone who puts their hands on them, they do their best to see that they do it to no one else.
As I said my wife thinks you should walk away. If you can sure....sometimes you cannnot, then what?
Verne

With regard to giving warnings,

We are told that God told Adam not to eat from a certain tree.   Possibly He could have repeated this several times, but we do know that the penalty occured, exactly as fortold, the moment the first infraction occured.

How many of us parents are this consistent?

Brent

[vernecarty]

. .... I don't think confessing sin that resulted from victimization is primarily about fault.  It is about freedom!

Yes, my sins were my own fault.  But more important to God, I believe, was my willingness to confess how badly I hated those sins and how I wanted to be free from the power the abuse held over my decisions.  Confession allowed me to bring sinful behaviors to the table for open discussion with God.  He instantly forgave me and completely cleansed me, then He began to teach me day-to-day how to change my responses."

Marcia, sometimes you do amaze me sister, and this quote is one such example.
There are some things that do not lend themselves well to a BB discussion because they are too important and one runs the risk of having them tirivailized.
I want to tell why I think the above statement is a monumental tour de force - if people truly understood it, many would be kept from all sorts of false teaching and cultish philosophy.
There has been a lot of recent discussion about the application of the cross in the life of the Christian.
Brent's response was scintillating and in my opinion right on the money.
Nevertheless, as I reflected on what was being said, it dawned on me that people often propose these kinds of notions in an attempt to address real issues, in the case the person raised the question of what to do about one's sin.
I mentioned that struggling with easily besetting sin is symptomatic of immaturity in the believer and this, I believe  is indeed the case. As we grow in grace, we find that we no longer fail in the same ways, or we do so with less frequency, than we used to.

What does this have to do with anything, you might ask?
Well, Marcia put her finger very powerfully on something else I should have said at the time but did not, and here it is.

God's remedy for sin in our lives is not the applicaton of the cross, as some mistakenly assert, it is confession!

busy right now, more later...
Verne

[moonflower2]

The references to victimization/child-abuse, in the quotes from Beth Moore, can be applied to spiritual abuse as well, hence I post these here.

"I believe each of us who have been victimized in childhood can testify that the tendencies toward certain sins dramatically increase as a result.  As part of my healing, I had to take responsibility for my own sin, whether or not another person's actions escorted me to those sins."

Right on the money. Nothing is beyond God's reach. No one is hopeless.

I found this quote when I was a high school student, and it went like this:  "It's my parents fault for what I am; it's my fault if I don't change."

We have the options.

[M2]

Just to clarify, what Beth Moore is saying re. healing from past abuse is similar to what MarkC has been saying hence I posted quotes from Beth Moore here.  I did not post anything about a remedy for sin, but rather about a process for healing and breaking free from bondage.

The healing process involves recognizing that from our past which has victimized us and kept us in bondage.  Having done that, there is then a need to own those sinful tendencies by confession in order to then find immediate forgiveness from God and daily renewal.  This does not get the victimizer/abuser off the hook in that he/she is still worthy of the millstone treatment, but it does help the victim find healing.

God bless,
Marcia

[Suzie Trockman]

Marcia,
Are you referencing  Beth Moore's book called "Breaking Free"?  She has written quite a few.  I went through this DVD series.  Her lecture series could hold my interest like no other, as she is quite a gifted teacher.

I wasn't quite ready to go through her book "Breaking Free" 4 years ago as it is pretty intense.  I think I will take it off the book shelf and dust it off.

Suzie