WOUNDED PILGRIMS

[M2]

Marcia,
Are you referencing  Beth Moore's book called "Breaking Free"?  She has written quite a few.  I went through this DVD series.  Her lecture series could hold my interest like no other, as she is quite a gifted teacher.

I wasn't quite ready to go through her book "Breaking Free" 4 years ago as it is pretty intense.  I think I will take it off the book shelf and dust it off.

Suzie

Hi Suzie,

I have not read the book yet, but am going through the video series in a Women's Bible Study group at church.  It comes with a workbook and homework 5 days/week.  Yes, it is quite intense.  I posted comments that were relevant to topics we have discussed.

It is quite tragic what people (in my group) have experienced and refreshing to see the Lord's healing work in their lives.

Blessings,
Marcia

[vernecarty]

I am sometimes accused of intellectual elitism.
Part of the reason is that I simply assume anyone caring to read what I write is not a dunce.
Concededly, that assumption is sometimes unwarranted.
The post I made was in response to a question raised about what do we do about sin in our lives.
Unless the person is a complete idiot, they would not confuse God's part with ours.
Would somebody please stand up and demonstrate, for the rest of us simpletons, exactly how one would apply the cross to one's own specific sin?
As I said, what we do with our sin is confess it.
That is all you can do...silly man...
Verne

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

CAPISCE??!!!
...back to the lab, persulfate TOC data awaits...

[vernecarty]

Will a silly woman do?

Verne, an elitist attitude is an attitude that calls someone a dunce and an idiot who is simply disagreeing with you. Sondra

I did promised not to call you any more names didn't I? 

O.K. I take back the dunce and idiot comment but the supposed rebuttal of my point by you-know-who was quite silly considering the speaker(writer) obviously completely failed to grasp it...pressed for time now...more later...
Verne

[vernecarty]

Some folk followed GG for reasons of personal agrandizement - they loved being special, placed on a pedeatal, and having the supposed right to tell people exactly how they should live their lives.
Many others were qute sincere, and truly desired God's best. They were convinced the GG could teach them how to get it.
The inducements took  vairous forms, but in general, fear was the key motivator.
We all remember threats like "losing the inheritance", "missing the first resurrection", "not being an over-comer" etc. etc. ad nauseam.
Nothing is wrong with wanting God's best. We have to be exremely careful of people claiming to know, for each of us, exactly what that is, and furthermore how it is to be achieved.
The discussion regarding how we deal with sin is important for this reason - when you sum it all up, and reduce it all down the bare essentials, the only thing that keeps us from God's best is sin!
If you accept this premise, it follows that we must then be very clear regarding what we believe about sin, and what we represent to others concerning the way we deal with it.

It was popular in the assemblies, as with much so-called deeper life teaching to assert that the way to deal with sin in your life is by "going the way of the cross".
Assuming for the sake of argument, that there were indeed some metaphysical, mystical process by which one could engage in such a thing, let us pose this question.
What have those found who espouse this kind of teaching with regard to its efficacy to deal with their own sin?
To make it even more objective since we are so often given to self-delusion, what have others observed?
Did any of us in the assemblies overcome our sin by "going the way of the cross" , whatever that was?
Was the main proponent of this kind of teaching GG himself, able to overcome his sin?
Think about it.

What good is your doctrine if it lacks power to effect any change whatsoever in your own conduct?

Most well taught teachers of Scripture will tell you that the reference to the cross (let him deny himself, take up his cross, etc.) in a practical way simply means saying "no" to one's own desires, when they clearly conflict with the revealed will of God!
Not all the hogwash assembly folk oftern dished out to get others to do what they wanted them to do.
The question is simple, where do we find the power to say "no" to sin in our lives??
It is a very good qustion and I am glad Sonrdra raised it in the honest and candid way she did.
Ultimately, this is what it is all about is it not?
 Morre later...
Verne

[vernecarty]

Let me just  say a word or two about using typology and metaphor to present doctrine - it is dangerous.
It was GG's undoing
I like Biblical typology, the scoffing of some like my good friend Tom Maddux notwithstanding, as much as the next person.
I do not base doctrinal positions on it.
To suggest to a child of God strugging with personal sin that what they need to do is "go the way of the cross", is worse than useless and misleading. It is positively harmful and ignores the plain teaching of Scripture.

While I think that some of the writing on this subject gives remarkable insight into Scriptural truths, ultimately it is speculative and therefore subject to error.
We must base our doctrine on the plain teaching of Scirpture, not wild speculation.

If for example, I made the statement that the firmament in Genesis corresponds to the understanding,(some would say the heart) the waters to the affections (lust in the fallen  creature) and the land appearing to the emrging dominance of the will, some of you will immediately recognize the allegorical typolgy and go yep...that's right. Most of you are going to say what the %$##@  is he talking about??!!

The fact of the matter is that the Word of God teaches us that we cannot crucify  our sin. we cannot corral it, we cannot conceal it.
 
WE HAVE TO CONFESS IT!
So far as what we are able to do about it, this is the Bible's central command to the believer.
It all begins with confession.

I do not know of any teaching in the Word of God that is plainer.
Why not keep it simple? God does.
Verne

p.s I suppose that part of the confusion some folk display about this is that they assume John is only talking about what the sinner does at the  time of initial salvation...a most egregious error in my view...

[vernecarty]

Just curious, why not?

I'll be honest.  Most of what I know about this sort of thing, I know second hand.
I think a lot of spiritual men (and women  ) who write about some of these things are right on the money, but much of it I could not necessarily prove just from the Scripture.
Secondly, this kind of teaching has sometimes been used to the great detriment of immature beliievers.
I just think we have to be quite careful in sharing even what we believe to be Biblical truth.
You know what the Word says about strong meat...

I agreed that confession is the start, but what's next?

Sondra

I thougt you would never ask...now yer talkin' 

Verne

[vernecarty]

What is the child of God to do about his sin?
Well, if you are anything like me, here are some of the things you may have tried:

DENIAL:  I am not really like that. People just don’t like me.
DELAY: Yeah…I know it’s a problem and I’m just gonna have to deal with it…one of these days.
DEFENSE: I was provoked!
DISCIPLINE: Maybe if I move into the brother’s house…was more faithful in my morning times, attending the weekly meetings,  prayed more….
DISPAIR: I guess this is just the way I am…I’ll never change, no matter how hard I try…I might just as well give up…
DECEPTION: It's not that big a problem....I'm being faithful in other ways...God understands...

Sounds familiar anyone?

Verne

[vernecarty]

Then you did what that was the correct way to deal with your sin?

Nope...never worked for me...so I would definitely not recommend that approach...but of course, y'all knew that...
Verne

[editor]

Nope...never worked for me...so I would definitely not recommend that approach...but of course, y'all knew that...
Verne

Verne,

What are you trying to say here?  I don't understand. Could you please re-state?

Brent

[vernecarty]

Verne,

What are you trying to say here?  I don't understand. Could you please re-state?

Brent

Somewhat tongue in cheek, but nontheless true. We all at some time or another have attempted to deal with sin in our lives in one or more of the aforementioned fashion...until we learned better...i.e until we learned the necessity of confession.
The best part is what comes after...
Verne
p.s. I know...it seems far too simple does it not? Yet there it is, right in the Bibles we used to read so often...

[BAT]

Somewhat tongue in cheek, but nontheless true. We all at some time or another have attempted to deal with sin in our lives in one or more of the aforementioned fashion...until we learned better...i.e until we learned the necessity of confession.
The best part is what comes after...
Verne
p.s. I know...it seems far too simple does it not? Yet there it is, right in the Bibles we used to read so often...

I have heard several very interesting opinions about 1 John, where it says if we confess our sins.

No matter how you slice it, it isn't easy confessing certain sins.  Especially one that you have some equity invested in.  To do so, in my opinion, is evidence of the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

I think Sondra is right when she says that God begins to work in many ways in a sinners life when that occurs.  Call it what you will, it is full effect when the sinner confesses.

I see confession and repentance as being inseperable.  Halfhearted, vague confessions, followed by continued behavior is NOT what it means to confess our sins.

Great discussion!

Brent

[vernecarty]

I have heard several very interesting opinions about 1 John, where it says if we confess our sins.

No matter how you slice it, it isn't easy confessing certain sins.  Especially one that you have some equity invested in.  To do so, in my opinion, is evidence of the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

I think Sondra is right when she says that God begins to work in many ways in a sinners life when that occurs.  Call it what you will, it is full effect when the sinner confesses.

I see confession and repentance as being inseperable.  Halfhearted, vague confessions, followed by continued behavior is NOT what it means to confess our sins.

Great discussion!

Brent

What I say next is going to really shock you Brent...
Verne

[BAT]

What I say next is going to really shock you Brent...
Verne

I doubt it, but I look forward to hearing it.

Brent

[vernecarty]

There are some things, while they may appear intuitively right, may in fact limit one's appreciation for the reamrkable thing
that is being said in 1 John 1:9: If we confess our sin...
Although the English transaltion uses the same word in both places,the word for confess in  1 John 1:9 is not the same as in James 5:16, where it says: Confess your faults one to another.
I would like to point out what I believe is a subtle but important distinction.

Think of the words admission and acknowledgement.

 James 5:16  Confess your faults one to another. Think admission in the sense that the confession is declarative.

That is to say, you actually talk about your faults.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sin. Think acknowledgement, in the sense that the confession is dispositional.

edit: in other words, you uderstand they exist; while you may not talk about your faults, you think about them...

I am not saying that the word used in John 1:9 never includes the declarative, for in Roman 10: 9, 10 it very clearly does.

I am suggesting that the emphasis in 1 John 1:9 is dispositional.

In fact we see both combined in Romans 10:10.

For with the heart man believes unto rightoeousness: Disposition

And with the mouth confession is made unto salvation: Declaration.
Now the critical question: why is this important?

Acknowledgement of something has nothing to do with how one feels about it.
I wil take this even one step further; It is possible to acknowledge something, even though you may not be ready to admit it (perhaps due to feeling powerless to remedy it, which is true for sin)

We as Christians sometimes find it difficult to do or even say the right thing, even though we want to!

That is to say, the dispositional precedes the declarative. I believe  1John 1:9 is telling us that God understands this in His children.

There is great power in 1John 1:9
I know some of you are already starting to get my drift. It has some implications for Brent's comment about repentance and confession.
Some specifics next...it is truly amasing how God will take any opening we give Hm to bless...amazing!
Verne

[vernecarty]

I'm sorry.  I will need some help with this.  If you have time, would you break this down and put it more simply?  Pretend you are speaking to a new Christian who wants to learn what 1 John 1:9 means. You may respond that a new believer doesn't need to know this and won't understand the complexities of the distinctions ??  I have read your post several times and I feel like you are saying something important, but I simply can't get it. 

Sondra

How about an illustration?
Suppose there is a guy at work whom you do not report to, but whom you have observed handles his subordinates in a very abusive manner. In fact one young lady is so distressed over his conduct that she quits in tears.
As an example. He would come up to her after she had spent several hours tuning a very sophisticated analytical instrument and demand that she start something new, loosing all the hours of instrument prep time and so falling behind in her work.
Well, it is easy to understand how you could over time grow to dislike a guy like this.
You can even imagine hoping that he would someday reap what he sowed.
I am not necessarly convinced that either of the above are necessarily bad.
Imagine one day you come to work and the office is all abuzz:

Steve's wife just left him!

And you go: YES!

Well, not too long into your rejoicing, the Sprit of God quietly says to you:

"Why are you rejoicing in that man's calamity?"

On an intellectual level it is obvious - he deserved it. In fact after the prompting, I did not suddenly feel any less happy that this had happened to this guy, but in my heart I agreed with God. It was not right to rejoice at his misfortune. As I said, I did not necessarily immediately start feeling sorry for him (that came later), but nevertheless; I confessed my sin.
In a word, I don't think confession requires a special way of feeling, or thinking that you will never commit the same transgression again..
I think 1 John 1:9 is saying that God is willing to work with an attitude, even if we think we are not ready for action. That is where the second and best part of the verse kicks in!
The fact that we are having this converstation, is a result of my own application of 1 John 1:9.
I did not think I would be able to have a civil conversation with you Sondra. I was wrong about that.
Verne