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Author Topic: WOUNDED PILGRIMS  (Read 435457 times)
moonflower2
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« Reply #150 on: May 09, 2005, 10:44:40 am »

I was going to talk about this in some detail later but now is as good a time as any since your raised this issue.

There is a fundamental dishonesty in the false theology of re-crucifuxion, I recognize that it arises out of confusion about what to do about the problem of indwelling sin in the believer, which is a real problem. There is indeed a law in his members that wars against the law of his mind.
Here is the source of the dishonesty:

Not a single person espousing a theology of self-crucifixion has been able to overcome their sin by its application!

George Geftakys is not the exception. He is the rule. All the time he was teaching this false doctrine, he himself was a slave of sin and he knew it!
The core of the profound anger I have felt toward this apostate, is the deliberate mailice of enjoining upon the people of God a course of action you know full well will not be of any value to them as it has totally failed in your own attempts to implement it.
It is generally true that proponents of this kind of teaching in fact demonstrate its fallacy by their own lives.
I don't have a lot of time, but let us put this issue to rest once and for all.
I want to pose three simple questions that I think will provide the answer to the real problem.
How do we distinguish the course of salvation past?
How do we distinguish the course of salvaton future?
How do we distingusih the course of salvaton present?
It fundamentally has to do with the nature and stages of salvation.
Let us talk about the past, the future and the present.
For the sake of easy application, let us also couple those periods with the words, penalty, power, and presence.
The best way to be kept from false teaching of all sorts, is to have a clear and unobstructed veiw of the work of redemption with respect to the above delimiters.
Let us take salvaton past.
Exactly what did God do on the cross? He delivered you from sin's penalty.

The wages of sin is death. He that hath the Son, hath life.

The work of the cross did not deliver the believer form sin's presence. That is future.
The work of the cross did not deliver the believer from sin's power. That is present.

Some of you are going to go apoplectic when you read that last statement. Read carefully.
I did not say the work of the cross cannot deliver you from sin's power.
The truth of the statement is self-evident. Every believer continues to sin even after he is saved.

Every Christian reading this recognizes the truth of this statement or you must tmake God a liar.

Salvation from sin's penalty is the a work completed.
Salvation from sin presence is a work yet future. (we shall all be changed...!)

Salvation from sin's power is the work present!

The only relevant question then that presents itself to the thoughtful Christian, since he can do nothing about the past, and must await the arrival of the future, is what is God's provision for the present course of his redemtion - deliverance from the power of sin.

How God does this is then the central and paramount issue.
The idea that this involves a design of God that pits two opposing natures agianst each other is very problematic and makes overcoming sin a question of how one chooses.

The Bible teaches that it is a mater of how one walks!

Make a mistake on this point, you will not only miss the mark, you will also lead others astray.
This is the legacy of George Geftakys.
Bye for now...


Thanks for the refreshing post!
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Oscar
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« Reply #151 on: May 09, 2005, 10:57:04 am »

Verne,

Excellent post! 

Both in Reformed and Dispensational circles there are many trained theologians and pastors who do not believe that a Christian has a sin nature at all!

They point out two things: 1. In Romans Paul asks, "Who will deliver me from this body of death?", not "Who will deliver me from my sin nature?"  2. When we died with Christ, it was the sin nature that died.

Sin, they say, is still present in us because of our unredeemed bodies.  Our essential natures, though, are reborn as sons of God.  "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation..."

Thomas Maddux
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vernecarty
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« Reply #152 on: May 09, 2005, 11:40:22 am »

Verne,

Excellent post! 

Both in Reformed and Dispensational circles there are many trained theologians and pastors who do not believe that a Christian has a sin nature at all!

They point out two things: 1. In Romans Paul asks, "Who will deliver me from this body of death?", not "Who will deliver me from my sin nature?"  2. When we died with Christ, it was the sin nature that died.

Sin, they say, is still present in us because of our unredeemed bodies.  Our essential natures, though, are reborn as sons of God.  "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation..."

Thomas Maddux

Thanks Tom. I think the stakes are huge...
Verne
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M2
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« Reply #153 on: May 10, 2005, 06:48:28 pm »

.....
The idea that this involves a design of God that pits two opposing natures against each other is very problematic and makes overcoming sin a question of how one chooses.

The Bible teaches that it is a mater of how one walks!
.....

Profound!

Marcia
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vernecarty
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« Reply #154 on: May 10, 2005, 08:41:47 pm »


p.s.  Please give me some time to catch up with your posts.  For right now, I will probably ignore the other posts that seem to get off track of what we are discussing here.  I have other responsibilities and cannot devote the time that many others do to the BB's.  I am interested in this discussion, but I need to go slower than you are used to.



No Problem. Take your time. I am a little pressed at the moment as well...
Verne
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vernecarty
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« Reply #155 on: May 11, 2005, 10:31:07 am »

Thanks for the refreshing post!

Most welcome!
Verne
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vernecarty
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« Reply #156 on: May 11, 2005, 03:29:44 pm »

The nature was already there or Adam could not have sinned.  His will engaged and chose disobedience.  God designed us as body, soul, and spirit. 


Sondra


How do you reconcile the fact that God pronounced all that he had made very good, with the position that he created man with a sin nature? A sin nature seems to me not to be a good thing.
The implication is that Adam was from the outset incapable of obeying God's command. This has some extremely serious implications regarding God's justice. The Bible teaches that Adam was not deceived, and in my opinion the fact that He and Eve were the only two humans who had any real choice with regard to sin, militates against your position.
This is in my view inconsistent with everything the Bible teaches about the fall.
As our federal head, Adam passed his sin nature on to every subsequent human, a nature he acquired as a result of the fall!
Even Satan is decribed as being created perfect, until iniquity was found in him!
There has to be a clear doctrinal distinction made between innocence, holiness, and immutability, the latter attribute belonging to God alone. The only being incapable of sin is God Himself. This leads to the doctrine of Christ's impeccability, a matter many Christians do not understand.
Verne

p.s. I don't not mind other BB members participating in this discussion at all. I Think we grow and learn by an exchange and dbate of ideas and viewpoint and we certainly do not have all the answers.  Smiley
« Last Edit: May 11, 2005, 04:45:05 pm by VerneCarty » Logged
Mark C.
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« Reply #157 on: May 15, 2005, 03:46:40 am »

Hi Everyone! Smiley

  Sondra,

  Why do you change the title of the thread from "Wounded Pilgrims" to "Death As History", etc.?  I assume you do not like the thread title as it is?

  I promised to mention my own experiences with "deeper life" truth as taught in the Assembly:  As Verne stated, "it doesn't work."

  We can speculate forever re. the interpretation of certain verses, but certainly our understanding must be tempered with the practical questions re. if it really works or not; and if it doesn't maybe my exegesis is off.

  I found with GG "holiness" teaching that I was driven to look within and to constantly examine my motives.  Self was the enemy and must be defeated, because this "self life" was in opposition to God's control in my life.

  Once "self was dethroned" and "Christ was enthroned" in my heart perfect purity would be acheived.  I believed this and gave it all I had in a effort to perfect this life in me.

  As I said before, it was very much like what I learned in Eastern Religion, but I rationalized that now this spiritual pursuit was sanctified in Christ.

  Rather than destroying self I became more and more preoccupied with self, and found that all I was doing was repressing sin, vs. overcoming it.  The more I looked within the more bad motives I discovered----it seemed endless!! Cry

  I was like a soda can shaken-up and ready to explode.  I will confess that I have a tendency to fall back into the same kind of false holiness methods even now.  I kind of naturally deviate to that way of thinking/feeling, and when I do, I have to remind myself that it is not my job to search out the roots of my sin and to kill and rip them out.

  I was always good at being dishonest with myself and explaining away the obvious sin that raged in my members.  Like most religious phonies, I could put on a good act in front of others, but sometimes when away from the Assembly's watchful eyes my acting failed.

  I was driving a truck and a guy to the left of me cut in front at a light that was turning red. I had to brake hard to prevent hitting him and at the same time I blew the air horn to warn him I may not make the stop in time.

 Now, this kind of thing happens often, but for some reason I really lost it this time!  I honked the horn again and this provoked the cut-off man to salute me with his middle finger!

 I snapped!!  I reached down and grabbed my tire iron, that I used to bump the tires with, and started to walk up to the car in front with the intention of taking it to his head!!! Embarrassed

  The man saw me coming in the mirror and drove through the red light and high-tailed it to parts unknown, thus delivering me from consumating my road rage on his person.

This situation arose after having an especially "blessed" time in the Word and prayer that very morning!

   I have since discovered that my preoccupation with seeking an inner state via spiritual methods/disciplines/attitudes has no real power to control my behavior. 

  My inner emotional state had complete control.  I thought that The Spirit would overshadow this inner life, if I learned the right way to release that Spirit in my life.  If I managed the proper attitudes and disciplines my heart would be flooded with love, peace, and joy, and consequently idiots like that driver could not effect me.

  Idiot drivers still can get to me to this day, but it doesn't mean I'm unspiritual if I get upset at that.  I don't get driven inward with feelings of guilt over my "failure" to maintain inner peace,  and in so doing the anger doesn't become explosive.

   Jesus came to save me (my self life), not to kill it, and what he wants me to put to death is my sinful behaviors.  When I am just trusting God's grace to keep my heart I can turn my fous away from me, to those around me, and this is true spirituality.

                                              God Bless,  Mark C.

                                                   

   
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vernecarty
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« Reply #158 on: May 15, 2005, 04:34:47 am »

Hi Everyone! Smiley

  Sondra,

  Why do you change the title of the thread from "Wounded Pilgrims" to "Death As History", etc.?  I assume you do not like the thread title as it is?

 
                                              God Bless,  Mark C.
                                                  
   

That's my doing Mark Sorry about that.
I wanted to challenge Sondra to show me anywhere crucifixion is made with reference to the believer in any tense but the past. It is not once mentioned as part of the present work of salvation.

 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.  For he that is dead is freed from sin.  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Teaching crucifixion of the self-life is in my view simply not scriptural.

It is a flagrant contradiction of Romans 6:6

As I have said before, taking up our cross is simply a metaphor for doing the will of God, even at the expense of ours.
That "cross" cannot crucify the old man, or anything else requiring crucifixion for that matter...why? God already did!!!
Verne
« Last Edit: May 15, 2005, 09:39:13 am by VerneCarty » Logged
Mark C.
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« Reply #159 on: May 15, 2005, 03:45:18 pm »

Thanks Verne! and I agree with your point Smiley

  Heading out the door for the Grand Canyon and I will see everyone next weekened! Smiley Smiley

                                                 God Bless,  Mark C.
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Mark C.
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« Reply #160 on: May 20, 2005, 08:28:01 am »

Thanks Sondra!

  I gladly accept your apology and am sorry myself if "my tone" seemed to be so offensive; as it certainly was not my intention.

  Just to try and set the record straight re. my previous post:

  I agree with you that I am a totally inadequate "Moderator" on this BB, and that my weekend visits do not provide for a proper review or response to posts.  I do what I can on the BB because I want to be helpful if I can.

  I do not believe that I "own the thread", though I'll admit I started it and have a bias in favor of keeping it.  I was only curious as to why it was being changed, and had no intention of deleting anyone's account for doing this.  I have never deleted anyone's posts' or account on this BB in any kind of "fearful" attempt to protect BB members, or as a means to compensate for any other character flaw I might have.

  I appreciate your direct tone, minus the personal attacks.  My lack of supplying complete answers is due to my frequent absences as well, and for this I also apologize. 

  I don't listen to "Christian radio" while driving around in my truck, as you suggested, and so any "weekend ideas" that I come up with must solely be blamed on me Wink.  I don't care for most Christian radio, and positively dislike modern Christian music Tongue!  I have tried to avoid revealing these secrets about my life while "trucking around" but there it is for all now to see and lament Wink Wink.

  Just so everyone will know how freakish I really am I like to listen to Classical music, Bluegrass, and Classic Country.  As a matter of necessity I will listen to News stations in order to get traffic and weather reports. 

                       I sincerely pray for God's richest blessings for you,
                                                                       Mark C.
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M2
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« Reply #161 on: May 20, 2005, 05:41:53 pm »

Thanks Verne! and I agree with your point Smiley

  Heading out the door for the Grand Canyon and I will see everyone next weekened! Smiley Smiley

                                                 God Bless,  Mark C.

Welcome back Mark C.  Smiley Hope you had a spectacular experience in the Grand Canyon.  Next time it's Ottawa Canada eh??

Marcia
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Mark C.
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« Reply #162 on: May 20, 2005, 07:07:31 pm »

Thanks Marcia,

  Great trip to the Grand Canyon!  An absolutely amazing experience, though I've been there many times!  In the past I spent my time hiking down to the bottom and back up, but this time just walked the rim and discovered that this less physically challenging tour enables a grander perspective.

   We took the old train from Williams to the Park and saw elk, pronghorn antelope, and the giant California condors that have been recently released there.  We even got held up by bandits along the way! Shocked (Old west actors with pop guns Wink)

  My Mom has never been there, and this trip was supposed to mostly be for her benefit, but Sindy and I enjoyed it too.  Next year Sindy and I will take the mules down to Phantom ranch at the bottom.

  I do hope to make a trip back East, and up to Canada one of these days, Lord willing. 

                                                 God Bless,  Mark C.
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Mark C.
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« Reply #163 on: May 20, 2005, 09:32:01 pm »

Hi Everyone! Smiley

  Just before I left for the Grand Canyon Brent made some excellent challenges as regards the nature of this BB.  I can't find the thread with that discussion on it and so will try to recall and respond here.

  Re. the issue of " the act of considering our past in the Assembly as being a poisonous experience, vs. a healing one."

  This indeed can be a danger, as can preoccupation with one's perception of being a victim of abuse.  As Joe and Sondra said on another thread it is a matter of "balance."

  For each individual recovery from our fringe church past will be different.  Some, like Brent, have easily found their footing and are doing well, while others have great difficulty.

  It is my contention, and the premise of the title of this thread, that actual damage was done to former members spiritual and psychological well being from their Assembly past.  The degree of that damage will be based on the intensity of their involvement.  Recovery has nothing to do with intelligence or strength of will, and is a more complex issue for some.

 

 How this happened to us must be understood, or we can suffer certain negative consequences:

1.) A lack of confidence in one's faith in Christ:

 This does not mean that I don't have an orthodox belief in God, but no longer trust my own ability to discern what is true re. my faith; a confusion of thought and feeling that has to be worked out.

 These need to discover how to be "strong in the faith" again, and talking with former members about what helped them can be very helpful.  Some of these, sadly, will not do this and just fade away into a quiet despair. Cry  It is for these that my heart breaks, and for whom I hope may read here and find help.

 2.)  Former members of cults and fringe groups can, on the other hand, have a tendency to be extreme (a key word in re. to recovering "balance").
 
 Some of these can try and look for another "cause" to latch onto that fills them with the same intensity that they felt while in their past group.

  These exhibit an opposite behavior to those in the first category.  They consider themselves "strong" and have no patience with those that are in the first category.  This can include an intolerance of those whose views do not agree with their own, whether political, philosophical, or Biblical.

 They have strongly held opinions and react with vehemence against those that they feel are challenging their views.  If the BB does not go their way they may leave the BB ( sometimes only to return again), attack those they disagree with personally, but generally can't tolerate disagreement with their own views.

  I think an honest reading of this BB can provide an abundance of evidence for the above, and I will admit that this is something that I have been slow to be aware of in myself.  It has only been via the give-and-take of BB's that I have learned this about myself and one of the benefits of participation.

 Christians must be intolerant re. unrepentant sin and heresy, but be very patient in other areas, and it is this balance that has been thrown so very out-of-whack by our former religious experiences.

  It is not "GG's evil treatment of us" per se, that is the issue here, nor is this particularly what we need to recover from, but what decades of involvement in a false religious system "made" us into.

  My view of the term "wounded" is not a desire to perpetuate an eternal victim status, rather it means an opportunity to learn from the errors of the past.  To be wounded is not to be dead, and this means an opportunity to heal, but it also acknowledges that I have been deeply effected by submission/deception to powerful abusive forces.

  There are former members who refuse to admit that the Assembly was harmful in any way and still provides "God's one true church" and for them it is absolutely essential that they understand the toxic system that they lived in and supported for so many years.

  I have no doubt that some of these may poke in and read from time to time.  There is hope for recovery of these if they become willing to honestly reflect on the group and their participation in it. 

  Taking responsibility for one's own past errors and getting on with facing the future with a renewed resolve is the healthy goal of which I heartily endorse.

 However, whether we like it or not, this was a dysfunctional period of our lives that deeply influenced our spiritual and psychological personalities.  Decades of personal dishonesty, submission to abusive control, etc. can not be without any result in our present lives.

  For my recovery it was important to talk about these things, and I think for some others it will be too.  If you don't see the value in the discussion then feel free to talk about other things.  The BB is made up of many different contributions and it will be what these posters make of it. 

                                     God Bless,  Mark C.

     




 

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M2
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« Reply #164 on: May 21, 2005, 12:11:07 am »

Mark,

I'll be honest with you here since you have asked for criticism and evaluation.
I totally respect you as an individual.  You are almost always gracious, and what you have to say is very correct and valid.  You are one of the best moderators.  The advantage of posting only on the weekend is that you have all week to chew on what you want to say and are therefore able to clearly articulate your perspective.  The disadvantage of being away all week is that you miss the flow of the BB.

Before the welfare discussion ever came up and before Brent brought the matter to the BB, I had a sense of possibly being stuck.  I excused it because I knew that it was like you said, "The BB is made up of many different contributions" and many different lurkers and silent readers.

Also, again, it is like you said, "For each individual recovery from our fringe church past will be different."  Hence we can hinder the deliverance of someone from bondage by stopping the flow of what has been set in motion.

Like you, I am saddened by those who remain in bondage to feed the egos of the leaders.  Also there are those who have had their assembly disbanded from under them and are now discontent in their new places of fellowship, or are still wandering unable to find a place of fellowship.  These are all present day scenarios.  You said,  "I have no doubt that some of these may poke in and read from time to time.  There is hope for recovery of these if they become willing to honestly reflect on the group and their participation in it."  and I agree.

I believe we have 2 problems re. BB discussions.

1.  We expect that what has 'worked' for each us should work for any of the others.  or what does not 'work' for each of us will not work for the other.

2.  We label anything that has any remote 'looks like' our assembly days as the same as our assembly days.  e.g. we throw the whole confrontation aspect out the window because it reminds us of those hypocrites and pharisees of our assemby days.  A strong personality reminds us of George, so the motivation behind the strong personaliy's remark must be the same as George's was.  I am having a problem with all this labelling:  "Christ-like"  "intolerance"  "strong"  "weak ones" etc.

That's all for now.
God bless,
Marcia
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