WOUNDED PILGRIMS

[editor]

This sounds a little ridiculous to me Brent.  I think most readers are aware of the skinning I have been through on this board re. morals, deeper life, you name it.  I will admit, I may have missed it a few times, but when one is criticized as much as I have been on this board, one would have a pretty good justification for "shell shock."  Many would have crumbled long ago if they had to endure what I have endured on this board.

Well, this is not personal, you say, but then you just got personal again didn't you?

Sondra

You are insisting that I am speaking about a certain person, when I am not.  That's getting personal.

Let's drop it and stick to the topic, please? 

Again, this isn't about any one person.  Please feel free to disagree with my point of view, but don't insist that I am applying this to anyone in particular, when I am not.  That's being judgemental, and it's wrong.

Brent

[Recovering Saint]

Hi Everyone!

  Yes indeed, I heartily agree and enjoy a Biblical approach.

Brent and Hugh:  I guess I must be a dullard here, because I just don't see any exhortations directed toward the "weak" in Rom. 14-15.  It is not "clear" to me at all that this passage is equally exhorting both parties--- After reading it many times I'm not seeing it.  Also, after reading commentaries I find no scholarship that supports your views on these chapters.  I will quote one such scholar below. 

Mark

The previous point is my only arguement.

The importance in this discussion is to allow liberty to walk as God has shown you both for the Strong and the Weak and not allow each others condition to hinder the others walk. A level playing field.

IMO the weak probably are jealous of the strong for being able to do things they want to do OR they feel the strong are NOT being holy. Whatever the reason they FEEL compelled to STOP THE STRONG from living as they are.

The Strong are probably saying in some circumstances. Get over it. This is no big thing. See (and they pull out their bible and quote a verse to support a point) this clearly shows that we can do this. OR they feel the weak are going to put them under the Weak's rules of legalism. Galatians with Paul and Peter should be a good study to see an example. Paul says they are spying out OUR LIBERTY.

Paul in ROM 14 says let them both do what God shows them and don't force anyone to change for OUR sake no matter what we think because God is the judge.

IMO

Hugh

[editor]

Paul in ROM 14 says let them both do what God shows them and don't force anyone to change for OUR sake no matter what we think because God is the judge.

Unless what they are doing is clearly sin!  I know you mean that, but just wanted to state it for the record.

Brent

[Recovering Saint]

Unless what they are doing is clearly sin! I know you mean that, but just wanted to state it for the record.

Brent

Brent

Yes that is true. When something is clearly sin that is different.

Hugh

[Mark C.]

Hi Everyone!

  Wow!! We have a lively topic here!  

  I agree with Brent that we don't want to make this discussion into a personal issue.  Obviously we are aware of the history on the BB that might have influenced our interest here, but to make it personal will only detract from what could otherwise prove to be educational.

  Brent:  I listed the name of the commenator "James Dunn" and the commentary "the Word Biblical Commentary" in my last post.  James D.G. Dunn is a Professor of Divinity at the Univ. of Durham England.  He holds the M.A. and B.D. from the Univ. of Glasgow and the Ph.D. and B.D. from Cambridge Univ.  He is a well recognized scholar who knows his Greek very well .

    I know you think that it is "clear" that the two verses you list are telling the weak not to judge, and I guess that this might be possible, if the Greek some how brings out a hidden meaning that isn't in plain English.

   I do apologize, but I guess you will have to dig up your Greek references and other scholarship to help this "weak" minded  ;)brother understand how Paul is addressing the weak here.

  I think I should try and narrow my discussion to pinpoint our differences here, because I think we already agree on many things , and are only continually rehashing them.

 We agree that:

1.) Paul was strong and strong is good.

2.) The weak can use their position to manipulate. (though I don't believe this is discussed in Rom. 14-15)

  3.) Paul in Galatians does take the weak to task.

  4.)  Tolerance is not always the proper choice when relating to the weak.

  5.) The weak are not "special", nor should they be given celebrity/special status as those who are under-achievers as Christians.

    6.) Paul could let his passions fly and really let some folks have it!


    I hope that helps us to concentrate on the one main point that I am trying to make in the whole discussion re. "The strong and the weak":

   Whatever your view of these verses it is apparent that Paul does have something to say to the strong here.  I referred to the vs. in Gal. 6:1, and specifically to the word "Gently," to suggest that we need to learn to "moderate" our strongly held opinions.

   In the TNDT (Theological Dictionary of The NT) the definition for "gently (NIV) meekness (KJV)" pretty much sums up what I'm trying to say:

          Prautes (gentleness, meekness)
A.) Secular Greek.

     The word means "mild and gentle friendliness."  Laws should be severe but judges should show leniency.

B.)LXX and Hellenistic Judaism.
        Moses "moderated" his passion and was called "the meekest man on Earth", because of that.  (He was known to have a bad temper)
         The social position of a servant or inferior, and thus carries the nuance of lowly.

C.) The N.T.

        "it enables the believer to correct others without arrogance (Gal. 6:1)".  2 Tim. 2:25  Correcting opponents with gentleness will perhaps bring about their conversion.  Tit. 3:2 commends gentleness to all people, and in I Pet. 3:16 the defense of the faith should be with gentleness.

   I believe Roms. 14-15, and the other portions of the NT that I mentioned, are dealing with the problem of trying to relate to one another in the church in a way that "builds-up" vs. "tears down."

  Paul acknowledges the plain fact that people don't react well to those who are rude, even when the corrector is right.  One could argue that Paul was intolerant and rude at times, and he most certainly was, but he implores the strong to "moderate" their passion and to "make a difference" appropriate to the moment.

   It is this kind of "discernment" that is what I think is the lesson that needs to be understood here.  Knowledge is good (I Cor. but without love it is nothing----- worse than nothing, because it can destroy!  Part of love is to dissarm an enemy by "hot coals on their conscience" and possibly win their friendship.

  This approach will not work with all people, but that does not mean that it is not the preffered choice with most.

  To be "meek" does not mean to be "weak", and is really a demonstration of inner strength.  It acknowledges that God must convict one who is "out of the way" and that our blunt force methods will not eventually succeed if we can only increase the pressure.

   I believe Paul is telling the Strong to have the discernment to know when to get tough and when to be gentle.  In other words, it is more important to win the person than the argument.

                                                      God Bless,  Mark C.  

      

    

[editor]

I know you think that it is "clear" that the two verses you list are telling the weak not to judge, and I guess that this might be possible, if the Greek some how brings out a hidden meaning that isn't in plain English.

Here's the verse in plain English:

14Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another's servant?

Focus in on the part that says,  "and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats."

In the english,  "him who does not eat" refers to vs. 2 where it says,  "but he who is weak eats only vegetables."

So, you gotta admit that a remote possibility exists that when Paul says to the weak, "Don't judge those who eat," he is actually telling the weak not to judge.  Can you admit that this could be true?

Here's what the greek has to say, according to Young's literal translation:

"and let not him who is not eating judge him who is eating,"

There is a subtle difference, but I still see that we must remain open to the possibility that Paul is addressing those who don't eat, and telling them not to judge.  I get that idea from the words.

What about what I'm saying do you not see?  Am I going crazy?

Brent


 
 
 
 


 

[M2]

The NASB is the same
ROM 14:2 One man has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
ROM 14:3 Let not him who eats regard with contempt him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats, for God has accepted him.

The weak does not eat all things and is instructed not to judge the one who eats all things.  Ie the weak is instructed not to judge the one who has faith, and the one who has faith is instructed not to regard with contempt the one who is weak.

.....
   I believe Paul is telling the Strong to have the discernment to know when to get tough and when to be gentle.  In other words, it is more important to win the person than the argument.

                                                      God Bless,  Mark C.

This is getting personal. sorry.
And possibly you are saying that the strong have lacked discernment when they have gotten tough. ??

Marcia

[editor]

I believe Paul is telling the Strong to have the discernment to know when to get tough and when to be gentle.  In other words, it is more important to win the person than the argument.

That's why most of my friends are lesbian witches.  I can't win an argument with them, but I have won them as people, and that's the important thing.

If someone is wrong, the worst thing you can do is tell them they're wrong, because you might lose the person.  It's always best to make nice.

Am I starting to get it?

OK, from now on, Romans 14 is an admonition to the strong not to judge the weak.

My goal is to be weak, because they hold all the cards.

I don't want any of you wearing leather, sitting on leather, or using any animal products.  It offends me, and causes me to stumble.

If you want to win me, you'll do as I say.  If you don't , you are despising me, and I have verses that tell me that you're in sin if you do.  You don't want to do anything that injures my weak faith, so I expect that all animal products will be gone before sundown.

Also, no fermented beverages of any kind.  It's sin.  Anyone who drinks wine is in sin, and is an affront to God. You should all care more about holiness than you do.  Stop living careless Christian lives.

Brent

[M2]

I was going to modify my previous post, but decided to reply instead.

Mark, you said, "it is more important to win the person than the argument."

Interesting enough I saw this happen on this BB where the person was won to alright, but to a POV that even you would not agree with.  Hence my emphasis to focus on discerning of truth rather than on methods of communication.

Marcia

[summer007]

Brent, Why do you get so worked up over this ? God put the weak and strong in the body to work together. (The abrasive with the soft.) The weak don't have it as easy as you think and the strong sometimes need Thorns in the Flesh to help them realize this, seems to bring them back to earth.  Summer.

[editor]

Brent, Why do you get so worked up over this ? God put the weak and strong in the body to work together. (The abrasive with the soft.) The weak don't have it as easy as you think and the strong sometimes need Thorns in the Flesh to help them realize this, seems to bring them back to earth.  Summer.

That's exactly why I get "worked up" over it.  There is a need for both. 

My whole point is that what we have today, in large meausre, is a glorification of the weak and needy, and a punishment of the strong and productive.

I have come to the conclusion that no one shares my interest in this, so I'm going to drop the whole thing. 

I am quite frustrated that I have had to explain a simple passage of scripture several times in order to demonsrate the painfully obvious.

I know some of you are aware of this, but I wonder if several have any idea how whacky this place is?

I'm taking a vacation.  Happy recovery!


Brent

[summer007]

I agree the board can be maddening. Nothing like a nice trip away to clear your thoughts. Have Fun! Summer.

[tenderhearted]

This is what I have observed.

What came to mind when the weak and strong issues came up?

No one seemed to recognize of the 'weak; when the example of eating and judging came up.

The one who is weak is the one who is not strong enough yet to give into temptation. The strong is the one who can eat in moderation, not sin.
The weak can be an alcoholic, or addict of some sort.
In the Bible times it could be a Jewish convert to Christianity, who is not strong in their faith and hasnt come to peace about eat the prohibited foods under the law.

Christians because they are not under the law, have every right to eat or drink anything they want. To use that right selfishly over someone who for some reason cant control themselves.
A Christian is within his right to drink wine, but not to excess, there must be control over this right. But to serve alcohol to someone who doesnt have control , thus sending a recovering alcoholic into a set back. That would be abusive use of the right.
That is when the strong the one who has control, be considerate of the one who is weak - the alcoholic.

Romans 14:1-5 Is the reference that was in debate.
I like verse 4: Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls,. Indeed he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

Whether one his weak in faith, and the other is strong in faith, they are both servants of God.

I like 1 Corinthians 1:27 as a promise those who a weak in faith.


Lenore

[M2]

....
I like 1 Corinthians 1:27 as a promise those who a weak in faith.

1Cor 1:27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,

is not talking about those who are weak in faith, but that those who are weak in worldly wisdom.

Marcia

[tenderhearted]

Sorry my mistake:

Check out the verse for yourself , that reflect weakness in worldly wisdom



1 Corinthians 1:26 to 29  NLT

Remember , dear brothers and sisters, that few of you were wise in the world's eyes, or powerful, or wealthy  when God called you.
Instead God deliberately chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise. And he chose those who are powerless to shame those who are powerful.
God chose things depised by the world, things counted as nothing at all, and used them to bring to nothing what the world considers important, so that no one can ever boast in the presence of God.

New Century Version:
Brothers and sisters, look at what you were when God called you. Not many of you were wise in the way the world judges wisdom. Not many of you had great influence. Not many of you came from important families. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and he chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose what the world thinks is unimportant and what the world looks down on and thinks is nothing in order to destroy what the world thinks is important. God did this so that no one can brag in his presence.

THE MESSAGE:
Take a look , friends, at who you were when you got called into this life. I dont see many of "the brightest and the best" among you, not many influential , not many from high society families. Isnt it obvious that God deliberately chose men and women that the culture overlooks and exploits and abuses, chose these "nobodies" to expose the hollow pretensions of the "somebodies"? That makes quite clear than none of you can get by with blowing your own horn before God. Everything that wwe have  right thinking and right living, a clean slate and a fresh start - comes from God by way of Jesus Christ. That's why we have the saying,
"If you're going to blow a horn, blow a trumpet for God.