WOUNDED PILGRIMS

[Mark C.]

Hi Marcia,

  Yes, speaking in generalities in an attempt to avoid offending others can lead to a lot of confusion.  I would encourage you, and any others, to be direct in your comments.

  Re. a fear that "this BB has become the wounded pilgrims board where we must be careful not to offend others:"

    Where does this fear come from?  I have received e-mail's from those that felt uncomfortable about participating on a BB where posters were ridiculed, shamed, etc.

  It seems that there are two camps that are both uncomfortable with participating: one fears being attacked, and the other feels muzzled from open and honest conversation.

   I guess that brings us back to the "strong" and "weak" topic where both sides are going to have give some if we are going to be able to live together here.

   I'm not clear how someone still recovering from their Assembly involvement can so effectively silence those that have gotten beyond this past.  It would seem to me that the confident and capable former member would be able to hold their own in any argument.

  Whatever environment a Christian finds himself in there must be some awareness that what we say and do matters.  So in this sense, we need to bring to our discussion on the BB the same manner we would in any situation---- self control.

  I know that you are not saying that you resent being told to submit yourself to our Lord's commands, just that you don't feel freedom to speak plainly.

  As an example:  Suppose I have not had much sleep and am very irritible.  Sindy (my wife) starts speaking plainly about a chore that needs to be done here at the house.  I want to react to this from my irritated emotional state, but realize that I am not free to do this because I know it isn't right (or because I fear her right hook ).

   For whatever reason, I control my feelings and don't start a fight with her.  This is all I'm talking about on the BB: don't react to others perceived tone (that speaks more to my own emotional state than anything else), and this goes for whatever "side' you may be coming from.

  Self control is not hypocrisy: meaning that just because I don't blurt out what I feel at the moment this is a sign that I'm not honest.  This is the only kind of "control" I would recommend, not a fearful hand-wringing that turns the BB over to those who are prisoners of their previous/present victimization.

  But, this is not what I believe is happening on the BB.  First, I believe it is a distortion of my whole understanding of what it means to be a "Wounded Pilgrim."  Futhermore, I don't believe the present distress was as a result of conflict between a philosophy of a recovery mentality vs. a reality therapy one, and consequently which one would dominate the BB.

  I realize that there are Christians who strongly disagree with the whole concept of spiritual abuse, recovery from same, and especially anything that has a hint of psychological issues  .  I don't expect that my views will remain unchallenged, and indeed it is a good thing if they are put to the test!

  Nobody died and made me king of the BB  , and nobody's opinion should be safe from scrutiny.  I am not the sole interpreter of Assembly experience and how we should view it.

 But, as I said, I don't believe this has been a war over my philosphy concerning recovery.  If it had been there would have been those who would have taken me up on my many invitations to challenge my posts, vs. the way it actually worked out with the conflict with Lenore.

  There are, on both sides, an intolerance for certain view points.  The disagreement is such that each side believes that the other side should be silenced.  Just because we discuss recovery on the BB does not mean that anyone can't start a thread on whatever they want; and indeed that has been so, and this is a good thing too.

  What we do without Joe's humor, talk about music/movies, politics, welfare myths?  My monologues on recovery are of interest to some, but if that's all we had on this BB it would end up being my own little blog with a readership of about 12 (counting the five I paid to read it ).

  Marcia, you feel like you are being silenced, and on the other side there are those who feel like they are being told to shut-up and leave.  Trying to discuss our position is replaced with thinly veiled (and in some cases not veiled at all) attempts to humiliate the other one.

  "Being blunt" can be just as phony an excuse to let someone have it as a "false spirituality" that uses scripture to level an opponent.  The only remedy is trying to be honest with ourselves that we somtimes respond from our injured emotions.  I have been as honest as I can in my recent mea culpa and hope that this provides an example for others to follow.

                      God Bless and love in Christ Jesus,  Mark C.



     


     

 

[M2]

Hi Mark,

Since you addressed me in person, I will respond to you.  It does not really matter whether or not I contribute to this BB, there are others who will keep it going.  It used to be that the side show was over on the far side, but the side show has now become a regular commentary on AB and I will not be able to silently let garbage go unchallenged, wounded pilgrim(WP) or not.  I do not take kindly to being analysed by people who 'read' things into my posts.  I like open honest discussions.  I am not fearful that this BB will become a WP BB, it already has.

I do not think that you want to encourage me to be direct in my comments.  Been there tried that and here we are now as a result.

This is not about fear, but about facing the fact.   You have received e-mail's from those that felt uncomfortable about participating on a BB where posters were ridiculed, shamed, etc.  BUT you will end up with a double standard, because the WP is being allowed to go unchecked just because of their woundedness.  So looks like there is going to be a problem to face one way or the other.

I can relate to both camps, but not to those who will not have an honest discussion.

The confident and capable former member will not be able to hold their own in any argument because as soon as the 'supportive' RULE is breached all hell breaks loose and down goes the discussion.

If you are indicating that I did not display self-control then definitely address it when it happens.  I can take criticism.

I've said this before and will repeat myself, re. a WP reacting/responding to a blunt approach.  I saw it as a opportunity to help the individual through their sensitivity and respond in a manner that would encourage discussion.  Why? because I believed that the individual could benefit from it for other situations in life.  But the simple fact that, firstly I agreed with Brent's POV, and that I did not exhort him for his POV meant that I had chosen the wrong camp.  It was the other who personalized the discussion and took it downhill.  It is very frustrating and honestly, I would have reacted the same way Brent did had I been on board when the drama started to unfold.  I received an email from the said individual and then got on board to check out the drama; that is when I started to attempt to enter into the discussion and told the individual that had she responded differently the discussion would have a different ending.

  '"Being blunt" can be just as phony an excuse to let someone have it as a "false spirituality" that uses scripture to level an opponent.'  People use many different excuses to level their opponents.  You admitted to one today.  WP's use their woundedness.  etc. etc.  Personally I see more honesty in the blunt approach.  I do my best to stay away from analysing motives and I read words and messages and try to respond to the message being communicated.  Verne is one example where I can get a lot out of what he's saying, but find that I have to sift through "I can't believe anyone could think that way" type comments to get to it.  That is the way Verne communicates and I accept that about him and it is not a problem for me.  Verne forgive me for using you as an example here.

The nature of BB's is discussion.  This BB has become a support group.  I love good honest discussions, hence I have remained for as long as I have.  I shall participate if there is anything of interest happening.

That's all for now,
Marcia

[moonflower2]

Oh, okay, I get your viewpoint.


Can I ask a question?  Do you believe once an alcoholic always an alcoholic? Do you believe the person who suffers from the addiction of alcoholism will be able to take that one drink without consequences?

Thanks for the discussion.

Lenore

Yes, I believe that an alcoholic is always an alcoholic, but he can be a recovered alcoholic, just like your Dad.

Recovered alcoholics will tell you the same thing, or they wouldn't be recovered. They can't stop with a single drink, and as far as I know, never will be able to. That's the difference between an alcoholic and someone who isn't.

Aside from the verses being discussed, and the different meanings that we use the word "weak" for, I have known alcoholics who were in control and manipulated entire families. They could control everyone around them. They could evoke sympathy from outsiders. If anyone dared to stand against them or to say the truth, they would manipulate circumstances and the rest of the family and outsiders to "punish" the one who they perceive is against them. "Oh, poor me" is descriptive of their attitude, and in their minds, they deserve sympathy. I have a hard time considering this type of person as "weak" in any sense of the word.

Some alcoholics attempt suicide. I have known people who have attempted suicides who had the exact same behavior patterns as those I described in the paragraph above. Their suicide attempts were not done in an attitude of despair, but in anger and in an attempt to control the situation and those around them. I don't consider this type of person to be "weak", either.

Moonflower

[summer007]

Just a little comment: We know God accepts the weak and the strong! But two wrongs never make a right. So we have Grace their are some who do not want to be in a perpetual wounded status, wounds have healed,  they may have a scar, a battle-wound, could even be a badge of honor(depending on the War!) A Purple heart and never left the city! Christ has scars remember he showed them to Thomas. Eventually wounds heal at a different rate for all, so no-one should feel pressure. Having worked in the Medical field being around sick/weak people alot you look forward to being around heathly strong individuals nothing wrong with that, you can't force a sick person to get better, but they will eventually.  God heals he's the Great Physician. This board can be very aggravating going over the same thing, or logging on and see"oh their fighting again" how does that help anyone? Alot of the time I don't want to bother with someone else's personality conflict, they need to work it out themselves, but manners and courtesy ON BOTH SIDES HELPS!  Good- nite. Summer.

[M2]

Mark,

I'll post this now since you will likely be away this week, and because of the time difference I may only read your reply tomorrow morning.

Re. support group here's an example of true events of my day:
I called my parents this morning.  My Mum had just gotten back from her doctor's appt. My Dad is very weak and not recovering well from his recent surgery to set his knee cap after a car accident.
I then took 2 extra strength tylenols and went out and cut my neighbor's front lawn, and my front and back lawns.  I came in showered and got online to discover that one who I called a friend was misrepresenting me.  etc. etc. etc.


Don't you feel sorry for me and want to support me?  I don't post stuff like that because it is just part of life.  I may post some news, but I do not come to this board doing that kind of stuff on a regular basis.


Re. communication styles
Courtesy and kindness and manners are in order, as summer said, regardless of style of communication.  The problem is that we make our own set of 'rules' where courtesy, kindness and manners have been breached and we provoke others by our standards.  To be honest with you, right now I am very angry with tenderhearted's latest analysis of my post and am doing all I can not to retort.  I am also very disappointed that no one else has commented.  BUT that is my standard.  And I can well understand that another, like Brent e.g., might actually voice his anger and frustration in a similar situation.
Cults use kind sweet communication to lure and ensnare and seduce unsuspecting victims.  If we focus on style of communication rather than on content, we do a disservice to the person who is prone to make a conclusion based on how he/she feels about the poster delivering the message.  IMO it is more beneficial to focus on 'discerning of truth' rather than on 'methods of communication'.

This has become quite an e-vent eh??
God bless,
Marcia

[moonflower2]

Hi Mark,

Since you addressed me in person, I will respond to you.  It does not really matter whether or not I contribute to this BB, there are others who will keep it going.  It used to be that the side show was over on the far side, but the side show has now become a regular commentary on AB and I will not be able to silently let garbage go unchallenged, wounded pilgrim(WP) or not.  I do not take kindly to being analysed by people who 'read' things into my posts.  I like open honest discussions.  I am not fearful that this BB will become a WP BB, it already has.

I do not think that you want to encourage me to be direct in my comments.  Been there tried that and here we are now as a result.

This is not about fear, but about facing the fact.   You have received e-mail's from those that felt uncomfortable about participating on a BB where posters were ridiculed, shamed, etc.  BUT you will end up with a double standard, because the WP is being allowed to go unchecked just because of their woundedness.  So looks like there is going to be a problem to face one way or the other.

I can relate to both camps, but not to those who will not have an honest discussion.

The confident and capable former member will not be able to hold their own in any argument because as soon as the 'supportive' RULE is breached all hell breaks loose and down goes the discussion.

If you are indicating that I did not display self-control then definitely address it when it happens.  I can take criticism.

I've said this before and will repeat myself, re. a WP reacting/responding to a blunt approach.  I saw it as a opportunity to help the individual through their sensitivity and respond in a manner that would encourage discussion.  Why? because I believed that the individual could benefit from it for other situations in life.  But the simple fact that, firstly I agreed with Brent's POV, and that I did not exhort him for his POV meant that I had chosen the wrong camp.  It was the other who personalized the discussion and took it downhill.  It is very frustrating and honestly, I would have reacted the same way Brent did had I been on board when the drama started to unfold.  I received an email from the said individual and then got on board to check out the drama; that is when I started to attempt to enter into the discussion and told the individual that had she responded differently the discussion would have a different ending.

  '"Being blunt" can be just as phony an excuse to let someone have it as a "false spirituality" that uses scripture to level an opponent.'  People use many different excuses to level their opponents.  You admitted to one today.  WP's use their woundedness.  etc. etc.  Personally I see more honesty in the blunt approach.  I do my best to stay away from analysing motives and I read words and messages and try to respond to the message being communicated.  Verne is one example where I can get a lot out of what he's saying, but find that I have to sift through "I can't believe anyone could think that way" type comments to get to it.  That is the way Verne communicates and I accept that about him and it is not a problem for me.  Verne forgive me for using you as an example here.

The nature of BB's is discussion.  This BB has become a support group.  I love good honest discussions, hence I have remained for as long as I have.  I shall participate if there is anything of interest happening.

That's all for now,
Marcia

Amen

[moonflower2]

Mark,

I'll post this now since you will likely be away this week, and because of the time difference I may only read your reply tomorrow morning.

Re. support group here's an example of true events of my day:
I called my parents this morning.  My Mum had just gotten back from her doctor's appt. My Dad is very weak and not recovering well from his recent surgery to set his knee cap after a car accident.
I then took 2 extra strength tylenols and went out and cut my neighbor's front lawn, and my front and back lawns.  I came in showered and got online to discover that one who I called a friend was misrepresenting me.  etc. etc. etc.


Don't you feel sorry for me and want to support me?  I don't post stuff like that because it is just part of life.  I may post some news, but I do not come to this board doing that kind of stuff on a regular basis.


Re. communication styles
Courtesy and kindness and manners are in order, as summer said, regardless of style of communication.  The problem is that we make our own set of 'rules' where courtesy, kindness and manners have been breached and we provoke others by our standards.  To be honest with you, right now I am very angry with tenderhearted's latest analysis of my post and am doing all I can not to retort.  I am also very disappointed that no one else has commented.  BUT that is my standard.  And I can well understand that another, like Brent e.g., might actually voice his anger and frustration in a similar situation.
Cults use kind sweet communication to lure and ensnare and seduce unsuspecting victims.  If we focus on style of communication rather than on content, we do a disservice to the person who is prone to make a conclusion based on how he/she feels about the poster delivering the message.  IMO it is more beneficial to focus on 'discerning of truth' rather than on 'methods of communication'.

This has become quite an e-vent eh??
God bless,
Marcia

And Amen

[M2]

Re. ministering to the weak ones
I liked summer's medical analogy, so I thought I'd capitalize on it.
The weak one can be won by 'nice' treatment, but if he ends up choosing the sugar coated lie then he has not, in reality, been edified has he?  I, and others, observed this happen on this BB and commented on it via PMs.
The correct treatment might actually be the more toxic chemo/radiation, side-effects and all.  The weak one may shun the toxic treatment because he is afraid of the side effects.  The weak one may not be won over by the blunt approach, but in reality, regular doses of blunt truth will start to have its healing effect eventually.

Re. styles of cummunication
Both the gentle and the blunt communicator can find verses to 'justify' their method of communicating.
One's passion for the wounded is not any more or less Christlike than another's passion for the blunt truth.  Christ came full of grace and truth.  Stop judging each other on this matter.

Re. discerning truth and error
Child training books classify rebellion in 2 categories, active and passive.  The active one looks bad, but is actually easier to address because it is out in the open.  The passive rebellion is behind the scenes and sneaky and takes some doing to expose and address.
It is easier to identify the wolves than the snakes and vipers.  Yet both can hinder open honest communication of truth because of their disruptive nature.  I can identify 2 snakes on this BB, but will reveal their names some other time.

Re. support group
Yesterday, my daughter's team lost the game in the rugby playoffs.  One of her team members broke her ankle while playing.  I actually wept for the kid.
I am disappointed that Brent has decided to withdraw from contributing to this BB on a regular basis.  As I read the posters, I see that a number of us truly appreciated his clarity of thought and benefitted from his presentation of it.

Asta luego, au revoir,
Marcia

[M2]

Sondra,  I could count on you to respond.  Don't worry, I don't think that you are one of the snakes.  You are too upfront to fall in that category.  I am open to suggestions as to which category I am in.

Cults do use deceptive methods to ensnare their catch.  The point I was attempting to make is that the focus of the BB should be discernment of truth.

I am trusting the Lord that Brent will be back Sondra.  You can pray too.  You are right about not following any man, but like you, I do find his commentary quite thought provoking.  In actual fact, I only threw in that comment about Brent just to illustrate my 'support group' point.  Brent can and will do as he sees fit to do re. BB participation.

Like they say, no church is perfect, no BB or person is perfect.  The emphasis on a BB should be on truth telling.

Though I disagree with your deeper life stuff, you are a wise woman, so thanks for your comments.

God bless,
Marcia

[moonflower2]

This really is turning into a zoo, isn't it? Or is it The Magic Flute?

[tenderhearted]

Yes, I believe that an alcoholic is always an alcoholic, but he can be a recovered alcoholic, just like your Dad.

Recovered alcoholics will tell you the same thing, or they wouldn't be recovered. They can't stop with a single drink, and as far as I know, never will be able to. That's the difference between an alcoholic and someone who isn't.

Aside from the verses being discussed, and the different meanings that we use the word "weak" for, I have known alcoholics who were in control and manipulated entire families. They could control everyone around them. They could evoke sympathy from outsiders. If anyone dared to stand against them or to say the truth, they would manipulate circumstances and the rest of the family and outsiders to "punish" the one who they perceive is against them. "Oh, poor me" is descriptive of their attitude, and in their minds, they deserve sympathy. I have a hard time considering this type of person as "weak" in any sense of the word.

Some alcoholics attempt suicide. I have known people who have attempted suicides who had the exact same behavior patterns as those I described in the paragraph above. Their suicide attempts were not done in an attitude of despair, but in anger and in an attempt to control the situation and those around them. I don't consider this type of person to be "weak", either.

Moonflower

I agree with your example of an alcoholic who due to his addictions has traumatized entire families, destroyed families due to drinking and driving, have even killed their families while under the influence of the alcohol.  Frequently this occurs when an alcoholic has been on a binge, and then dry for a few days, and they get the D.T.'s.  I had a uncle , who was in one of these drying spells, and went to a stump outside of his house, and was crowing like a rooster.

Physically they are strong, in manipulation they are strong, the power over others in controlling and  lording over their authority by fear, frequently stripping their families of any outside support of friends, family etc, until the family member questions their own worth, and is frighten of the consequences if they ever left from under the alcoholic.

I agree with you in this , that this time of person is not weak. Nor are they strong, in character, nor strong in judgements once under the influence of the alcohol that is affecting their judgements of choice, judgement of reason, judgement of appropriate social conduct.
Addictive personality out of control, is not strong, but the consequences of that addictive personality doesnt make them weak either.

SO what does it make them?

Thank you Moon for the discussion.

Lenore

[moonflower2]

I agree with your example of an alcoholic who due to his addictions has traumatized entire families, destroyed families due to drinking and driving, have even killed their families while under the influence of the alcohol.  Frequently this occurs when an alcoholic has been on a binge, and then dry for a few days, and they get the D.T.'s.  I had a uncle , who was in one of these drying spells, and went to a stump outside of his house, and was crowing like a rooster.

Physically they are strong, in manipulation they are strong, the power over others in controlling and  lording over their authority by fear, frequently stripping their families of any outside support of friends, family etc, until the family member questions their own worth, and is frighten of the consequences if they ever left from under the alcoholic.

I agree with you in this , that this time of person is not weak. Nor are they strong, in character, nor strong in judgements once under the influence of the alcohol that is affecting their judgements of choice, judgement of reason, judgement of appropriate social conduct.
Addictive personality out of control, is not strong, but the consequences of that addictive personality doesnt make them weak either.

SO what does it make them?

Thank you Moon for the discussion.

Lenore

Sinners that need a Savior in a very obvious way.

Have you ever been to an intervention? It's a really effective tool to help the alcoholic realize that he has a problem, especially if you can get the main enabler there, too.

Moonflower

[moonflower2]

Re. discerning truth and error
Child training books classify rebellion in 2 categories, active and passive.  The active one looks bad, but is actually easier to address because it is out in the open.  The passive rebellion is behind the scenes and sneaky and takes some doing to expose and address.
It is easier to identify the wolves than the snakes and vipers.  Yet both can hinder open honest communication of truth because of their disruptive nature.  I can identify 2 snakes on this BB, but will reveal their names some other time.

Marcia

Where's St. Patrick when you really need him??

http://www.n-gage.com/snakes/main.jsp

[M2]

Where's St. Patrick when you really need him??

http://www.n-gage.com/snakes/main.jsp

Hi Moonie,

I won't be clicking on that link because, like Indiana Jones, I have this terrible aversion to snakes.  (I just got the zoo comment.)

However, I got carried away when I made that comment "I can identify 2 snakes on this BB, but will reveal their names some other time." because I have no intention of revealing their identities, unless they start doing some serious biting.

I apologize to all for that remark and also for stating the the BB has become a WP BB.

God bless,
Marcia

[moonflower2]

Try it. No pictures.