WOUNDED PILGRIMS

[Mark C.]

Hi Everyone!

  Lenore:  It has been difficult for many on the BB the last couple of months, not the least yourself, but part of giving an apology is a willingness to abandon our previous grievance.

  I think it would be good to move on to a different topic, and not try to keep it alive via subtle questions meant to get back at those we are still upset with.

  A BB is not a good place for a sensitive person to attempt to gain empathy or sympathy.  This is too bad, but having been on a few of these kind of BB's in the past I know that this is the case.

 As an easily offended person myself, I have learned that my participation on the BB is not to build my own self-esteem, rather an attempt to lift the spirits of the broken.  If I came here for my own encouragement I would have left long ago. 

  With the genuine intention of helping others, we can become too enamoured of our own opinion sometimes.  We can take our truly God given gift too seriously as well. 

  As an example:  My desire, and I hope gift, is to help those who have been in cults recover.  However, this is not the only needed ministry in the church.  There are those who have less of an ability to comfort and more one of a prophet.  A prophet in OT times was someone who confronted others with the truth and called these to repentance.

    In other words, we begin to think that our strongly principled views should dominate all others.  However, we all need each other, and this should give us pause from stepping up on our soap box too often. 

  When I am disagreed with, misunderstood, or down right attacked I figure that it goes with the territory of making a public comment.  It's good to get knocked off our box sometimes.

We need to be humble in our attitudes, and consider carefully those that have a disagreement with us--- because it is just possible they may be right.

 This is as it should be, because I am stating an opinion re. the spiritual well-being of those who might read, and this enters the realm of "be not many teachers."

  This limitation above is not the case in a private therapy session, where I'm encouraged to just pour out my heart; or better yet in a private prayer to God.

  It's good to have a friend that you can talk to about how you feel, but for such a session to be productive the counsellor will have corrective advice that we may not like to hear.  This does not mean they are against you, only trying to set you on a healthier road.

  It is too difficult to do this via a public forum like this, as most have no context for understanding your situation and will offer comments off the top of their head that sound offensive to you.

  I have been guilty of this.  I once tried to help David M. deal with his homosexuality, only to find out he was getting married in the near future   (sorry David). From reading one of his post's I thought he was trying to say that he was gay and missed it altogether.

  I hope that you, and others, find this helpful, and as always you can talk with me in private if you prefer.

                                               God Bless,  Mark C.

 

   

[M2]

Hi Mark,

I was at a seminar Fri/Sat and this is from the course material re. cell group ministry.

Edification is:
- Building up and affirming a person in truth.
- Speaking the truth in love even when it requires confrontation.
- Spurring one another to love and good deeds.
- Letting the Lord minister through other people in the group.
- Praying for one another.
- A work of God not of man.
- Leading people to the cross so that Christ can do the real ministry.

That was the authors' opinion on the matter, so it is open for evaluation.

Marcia

[Mark C.]

Hi Marcia!

  These principles that you shared sound very good, but as in all cases where we are given guidelines for ministry it has to be asked how these will actually work in real life situations.

  The word "therapy" in english comes froms a Biblical greek word that mostly means the service of "healing."  When Jesus healed the sick, and commanded the disciples to do the same, he/they were involved in "Therapeuo" (to heal, serve).

  "Is any one of you sick?------- And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up.  If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.  Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed-----.
Jms. 5:14-16.

  This passage above is an example of the Biblical concept of "therapy" that serves one another by bringing healing in a group setting like you are learning about.

 It is obvious that God must do the healing, as the author of these cell group principles points out, and just as obvious that the above James passage urges voluntary confession, vs. the use of the group as a means to intimidate/shame an individual into compliance with the majority opinion.

  The Chinese commies used group sessions as a powerful psychological means to weed out those not loyal to the party.  This is an example of using a wrong concept of "confrontation" to force change, vs. the biblical ideal where we allow the Holy Spirit to work in the hearts' of the "sick" and that brings about a voluntary confession from them.

  As former cult members we understand that the devil (literally?) is in the interpretation of words like "confrontation, spurring, affirming, etc.", sometimes.  These can be code words for violating personal boundaries; that instead of bringing healing can actually damage those we are attempting to help. (I am not suggesting that anyone here is doing this, BTW.)

  I'm sure the author was aware of this danger, and that is why he shared the last four points that balance the first three that address our actions toward one another:

   -Letting the Lord minister through other people in the group.

   -- Praying for one another.

   -- A work of God not of man.

   -- Leading people to the cross so that Christ can do the real ministry.

        (emphasis mine)

   What do you think he meant by saying "letting the Lord", and using the phrase, "so that Christ can do the real ministry"?  Is the author concerned that we might "prevent the Lord" from actually doing a work of healing in the soul of those we are meeting with?

  Our knowledge as former cult members can make us very helpful in applying proper balance to such a gathering where personal boundaries are not violated in an attempt to use the group to force change---- even good and needed change.

   God invites us to receive his grace for healing freely with an attitude of boundless mercy for the errant soul!  This is what I assume the author means by "leading people to the cross."  This "wideness in God's mercy" alters the attitude of the damaged soul that allows God to heal them. 

  We must bring to such a session of healing an attitude that recognizes that though we "confront" with the truth that confrontation by itself does not have the power to change.  God changes our hearts via the power of the HS to convict, convince, and bring about surrender to the Lord.  With this surrender comes a wonderful experience of the consolation of the HS.(healing)

   There are situations that cannot be effectively dealt with in such a small group setting.  If it is a matter of open unrepented sin then we will have to follow church discipline procedures (speak privately with them , i.e. not a public setting, then bring someone else in, and finally tell it to the whole church, etc.).

  Jesus gave us an example to follow as we minister one to another of "washing one another's feet."  I think that this is the attitude that needs to prevail in our attitude as we gather as belivers.

   Jesus in the above foot washing scenario does not "confront" the disciples with the truth of how dirty their feet are, why they have not gotten busy and cleaned their own feet, or why they have not been spiritual enough to understand that they should wash one another's feet.

 He simply takes the place of a 'therapon" and provides an example by washing their feet.

  Wasn't there a danger here that Jesus would reinforce a lazy indifference in the disciples that avoids taking personal responsibility?  In Jesus not relying solely on exhortation (confrontation) in this instance, and rather providing an example of proper ministry is there something for us to learn here in our relations one with another?

  Yes, there are times when Jesus confronted his disciples via strong exhortation, but most of his "moments of direct personal challenge" were like Jesus with Peter in JN 21 where he asks Peter, "lovest thou me more than these?"  Jesus attempts to work gently on the heart of Peter who is overcome with depression over his failures at Jesus crucifixtion.
 
  How can we lead others to similar healing moments as Peter had with Jesus above? 

                                             God Bless,  Mark C.     
 
 

[M2]

Mark,

There is much I can say in response to your post, but it is time for me to "move on".

I believe I can sum up a response with verses that Verne used recently, but I'll use the NIV instead.

Pro 9:7-9
"Whoever corrects a mocker invites insult; whoever rebukes a wicked man incurs abuse.
Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man and he will love you.
Instruct a wise man and he will be wiser still; teach a righteous man and he will add to his learning.

God bless,
Marcia

[Mark C.]

Hi Marcia,

  I don't understand how the verse you shared applies to my last post.  This is especially true as I wouldn't expect you would have "mockers" in your church group to deal with.

  The verse in Prov. has to do with those who not only do not believe, they are openly hostile to those who have faith.

  There are a couple of people on the BB presently that might fit the type of "mocker" that the Prov. verse suggests, but I was not making a comment re. this forum here. 

   My last post addressed the kind of small group meeting that you might have in your church.  A BB is more like a street corner gathering where anyone can pop in with a mask on and hide their true idenity.

  You asked for a further evaluation of the principles this author shared on leading a small church group and I offered my opinion.  I also asked some questions re. how such a group would actually operate as it attempted to minister one to another.

  I respect your desire to "move on" to a different discussion, but I'd hate to leave it with a lot of misunderstanding as to the point I was actually driving at.  I specifically stated that my comments were not addressed to anyone posting on the BB.   

                                                  God bless,  Mark C.

[M2]

Hi Mark,

The points about edification were stated to simply be that ie points about edification.  The cell ministry was referenced only to give credit to the source.

Re. "how such a group would actually operate as it attempted to minister one to another", that was covered in the seminar and I suggest that there are a number of books that would give some valuable insights.  The book we used was Cell Group Leader Training - Leadership Foundations for Groups That Work, by Scott Boren and Don Tillman

The verses from Proverbs were a response to the points you raised in your post, as they apply to BB posters or small group members or other contacts.  "Rebuke a wise man and he will love you".  "The truth will set you free."

Re. any ministry, this BB or a church or a small group or..., you shall know them by their fruit.  The BB was/is definitely needed to give Geftakys assembly folk an opportunity to "figure things out".  And it could have become a useful discussion forum.  When it turned into supporting and "encouraging" the victim status mentality, and your method vs. my method, I say it is time for me to "move on".  As it is, I only read the comments of some and skim the rest.

The best thing that has happened to Lenore in all her life is that Brent had the guts to tell her the truth.  Unfortunately she remains in her "victim" status because of her BB support group that has rallied to silence Brent in the name of 'compassion'.  My 'discernment' on the matter did not count either, though I am one who actually had contact with her.  Do I want the best for Lenore?  For sure.  Do I think she is getting it from her BB support group or any other support group?  Definitely not!!

We can discuss triggers, and past history, and methods of communicating with others ad nauseum, but in the end it is the truth that sets free and the wise man who is willing to receive it.

When I could not break free from my foggy perspective, and people were on my case, it was a good that I did not have a support group.  (Part of the reason is that I refused to create a support group when others attempted to enlist me.)  Yes, there may even have been some injustices against me and misunderstandings surrounding that whole episode, yet the end result is that I am free from my Geftakys assembly "victim" status.  I still have 'issues' and 'mood disorders' to deal with, but I am thankful to God for those who were willing to tell me the truth.

I was reading Isaiah 6:9-10 yesterday
And He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.'
"Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim, Lest they see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed." NASB
These same verses are referenced by the Lord in the gospels and by Paul in Acts.  I am not using them as a judgement call against the BB, but rather to consider the the heart and mind condition of the people that it actually came to this.  Most prophets, and even the Lord, lamented at the condition of the people who did not 'recognize' the truth that would set them free.

Marcia

[Mark C.]

Hello Marcia!

  The BB, like most of these kind of boards, are only what the contributors make it.  Nobody, but nobody, is able to chase another person from the BB without their consent, and especially someone as self assured as Brent.

  I know people have left active participation, but they have been on both sides of the argument.  Have some of these been "chased" because they think the BB has become a place of John Malone styled confrontation?  It seems that people on every side of this could have some reason to take their ball and go home.

   If we could create a utopian BB where "the truth" , as I perceive it, was the only perspective, and we could drum out all contrary opinions---- would that be better?

  No single poster is the final word as to what is "truth", and though the Bible is that final word for evangelical Christians,  even these differ in many areas as to how to interpret the scriptures.

  If we are frustrated with those that smuggly resist our attempts to agree to the obvious facts, or who we feel are not being honest, our only recourse is to call in God and ask Him to grant repentance to these. 

  If we trust only in our powers of persuasion, and forget the last four points of your cell group guidelines, we will indeed feel like giving up on many of the folks we might meet at church, the BB, or anywhere else in life.

  God is "the God of hope," and that was even true for Joseph when God recovered his abusive brethren to a place of repentance.  It may take years but God is able to bring the hardened heart to a place where they will admit their wrong.

   God encourages us to be patient, because he is; this is not because God is "an enabler" but because he knows that life, and the power of the HS, have a way to work on the conscience.

   We are not talking "different methods" here, rather recognizing that God plays the major part in changing character in his children--- this is the definition of humility.  This perspective will give one staying power in whatever ministry they find themselves, because dealing with people is just impossible at times.

                                              God Bless,  Mark C.

   

[M2]

Hi Mark,

I don't mean to make this about any particular person, and only used the names of various ones in my previous post to illustrate a point.  I responded, in the first place, to clear up the misunderstandings you mentioned.

Your response indicates that you missed the point I was making, but then maybe I am missing yours.

So for now, I shall leave the board to those who have a need to post without someone like me around.

au revoir,
Marcia

[Joe Sperling]

Marcia---

I hope your post below deosn't mean that you're leaving the BB for good. I always enjoy
your perspective on things, and your sense of humor too. I hope you keep posting.
Whatever you decide, all the best to you and God bless you.

--Joe

[Mark C.]

Marcia,

   I too will miss your presence, and I don't believe that your contribution is a hindrance to anyone here.

   I apologize for not understanding your point, but then again I have been told that I am not quick witted .

   God's richest blessings in all that you do, and I hope that you will consider me a friend of yours inspite of our misunderstandings.

                                                       God bless, Mark C.

                                                     

[M2]

Hi Mark,

I did misunderstand you so I must clarify.

My opinion re. cell group leadership by former GA members is that it would depend on the member.  If the member still views the Scriptures with an assembly taint, and/or is unwilling to admit that his viewpoint could be tainted, then it definitely would be harmful to the group.  Hence my opinion for disbanding of all existing assemblies.  I have observed that others have concocted a similar brand of false spirituality aside from the assembly environment.

In the cell group I attend we, former members, hold each other accountable right on the spot or soon after.  It makes for an interesting discussion time, but is a necessary evil for the moment.  Like Mark Kisla said, I prefer to listen in group settings and get my perspective renewed.

It is encouraging to be in the presence of Christians untainted by the assembly, Bible study is very encouraging...I just shut up, listened and watched  what was happening to the lives of people seeking God...taking what they learned and putting their faith in it....it was good....and it's contagious.
Gods will is that none should perish

Marcia

[tenderhearted]

Yeah, Marcia. I hope you don't stay away too long. Your posts provide worthwhile reading.

(By the way, who were the snakes?)

Moonflower

HI Moonflower:

I AM ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE, Marcia was referring to me, when she made that SNAKE REMARK.

Lenore

[tenderhearted]

Hi Mark,

I don't mean to make this about any particular person, and only used the names of various ones in my previous post to illustrate a point.  I responded, in the first place, to clear up the misunderstandings you mentioned.

Your response indicates that you missed the point I was making, but then maybe I am missing yours.

So for now, I shall leave the board to those who have a need to post without someone like me around.

au revoir,
Marcia

June 21st:

Marcia:

I dont want you to leave, you value this site, it is going through some growing pains right now, and you probably want to blame me for all the trouble.

You are an intelligent resourceful woman, who is passionate what she believes, and stands up to her opinions.

Just because someone doesnt understand you, or doesnt seem to be listening, doesnt mean your contribution is not valued.  Maybe clarification is just needed in the communication department.

I still value you as a friend, even though our friendship is taking us to our own separate corners.
I even wanted to call you and see you as a friend that last time I was in Ottawa.

Our feelings are hurt, and the wounds are open, but we can eventually iron them out.

We are both have strong opinions, we are both express by passion, and I am sure others on the board can put other adj. on us, what they have observed.

I do want to let by gone be bygone, forgive and forget and move forward. Let the past be the past, and mend the fences.

I may not understand what you are saying, but you do have the right to say what you want to say, just like everyone else.

This will be the last time, I will refer what has been going on in the last couple of month. The past is the past. I hope the bridge is not permanently been burned down.
Can we lay it to rest. Buried it into the deepest part of the sea, Put a NO FISHING SIGN UP, and start again.

What do you say? OKAY!!!

No more baiting, no more slight of hand, nothing. OKAY!!

I am sorry, for my end of fight, and I apologize to you for continuing the fight, you have been hurt by this , it was my fault that your we hurt, I apology . I apology for the misunderstanding, and for digging in my heels. I am sorry for not listening to you, ears, heart and spirit,
I am sorry if I spoke before I listen. I am sorry for not accepting your attempt at counselling.
I am sorry for hurting our friendship. 

We are only 45 minutes away from each other, so how about coming up to Arnprior, and going out some place public, and talk this over.  How about it?

Can we be friends again. Please!!!

Love in Christ.

Lenore

[M2]

Hi Moonie et al,

Re. to the snakes comment here is my response:

Hi Moonie,

I won't be clicking on that link because, like Indiana Jones, I have this terrible aversion to snakes.  (I just got the zoo comment.)

However, I got carried away when I made that comment "I can identify 2 snakes on this BB, but will reveal their names some other time." because I have no intention of revealing their identities, unless they start doing some serious biting.

I apologize to all for that remark and also for stating the the BB has become a WP BB.

God bless,
Marcia

You know how it goes, in the heat of the discussion you say/post remarks that you wish you had not.  It's called the emphasized amplified commentary.  I admit, I am guilty.


Lenore, I accept your apology.  I prefer to remain out of the loop for now, so go ahead and use your BB time wisely.  Mark C is on vacation, maybe you can pick his brain.

Marcia

[Mark C.]

Hi one and all! 

  As Marcia said, I'm on vacation and will be heading out to Ariz. tomorrow to check out some property.

  Lenore:  It was very heart warming to hear your apology to Marcia, and I trust you will consider what I said to you via email.

  Marcia:  It was also good to hear from you; the BB won't be the same without you!

     I'd like to raise a new topic here for our consideration:

     What does it mean to have a serious relationship with Christ?

   I do not ask this question as a quiz to discover your theological leanings , but because trying to think it through can have positive results in our lives.

    Evangelical Christians talk about having a "personal relationship with Christ", but what does that mean?

 1.)  To a very few it means a direct line to God where he talks to me and tells me exactly what to do at every turn.

 2.) To a much larger number personal relationship with God means a kind of devotional connection where,"He walks with me and talks with me and tells me I am His own."  This is usually interpretated not as specific directions about every choice, but emotional encouragement that supports one's faith as founded in doctrinal truth.

 3.) Then there are some that see "personal relationship with Christ" as being purely cognitive.  These don't put much stock in what an individual's experience of the unseen is.  These see rational comprehension of Biblical teaching as the only means to relate to God, and all this experience stuff as nonsense.

  Though most of us are not totally in any one of the above categories, we probably lean one way or another. 

   No, I am not going to provide my opinions on this yet, because I want to hear from others first.  As you answer I am not trying to test your theological prowess, rather how your views actually impact your life.

   This is why I phrase the question with such words as "personal" and "relationship."  If I have a personal relationship with someone does it not mean that this describes communication between two parties, shared values, or some kind of interaction of some kind that could be called an experience?

  Now, I'm not taking any sides in this discussion as yet, and am only interested in hearing what you have to say.  Maybe the use of the phrase "personal relationship with Christ" is a phrase that is often repeated, but is never questioned as to what it might really mean.

  Could it be kind of like the pastor of the church where I went that preached on "intimacy with Christ" and when I asked him what it meant he had no answer?  He knew it was the correct phrase, but he couldn't put it into words that described a life experience.

   I hope many will offer their thoughts on this, and when I get back I will respond.

                                             God Bless,  Mark C.