WOUNDED PILGRIMS

[Mark C.]

Hi Everyone!

  I thought I saw a reply on this thread from Dave Sable, but now it is gone.  If you deleted it Dave, I thought it was a good response to my question.

  The question didn't seem to interest too many, and maybe that is because it didn't seem very relevant to a BB dedicated to former Assembly members.

  I'm only guessing, but it could be that many readers here think that the answers are obvious, and that we all have a clear understanding of what it means to have a "personal relationship with Christ."

  At least one person wrote me with a response, but were reluctant to discuss it on the BB, due to a fear of being misunderstood, or mischaracterized.

  It could also be that some believe we have discussed this kind of thing too much, and prefer to discuss other issues.

  Dave's response suggested the issue was one of "balance" and that Christian culture sometimes supports a view that denigrates a sound reasoned approach.

   Balance is certainly key for former members of a group known for being way out on the fringe and extreme in some of their views.  We weren't as extreme as some groups in re. to teaching, but to those whose lives were messed up for decades it was just as harmful for them as any Witness Lee member had to deal with.

  Balance for a Christian attending a bible study, as Dave described it, will mean one thing, and it will be entirely different for a former cult member.

   A balanced view of Scripture, that corrects the Assembly distortion of the Gospel of Grace and returns the joy of our salvation to us, is a greater revolution in thought for us than the average born again Christian.

 It is more difficult for many of us who have deeply internalized a merit concept between us and God for decades, vs. those who rejected such teaching as "J.W. like" from the get-go.

  The reason I asked the question in the first place is not because I thought many of us didn't know the correct answer, rather as a query into how we actually are doing in our lives.

   "Okay Mark, but I'm having difficulty with the question because I don't know how to really evaluate 'how I'm doing'.   I'd just as soon not think about it, because it churns up all this self introspection.  Can't we just move on from all this Assembly wounded pilgrim stuff?!"

    ( You'll notice I am now supplying responses to my own questions myself, since I was unable to interest anyone else in the topic  )

  The above is a fair question, and if there are those that feel this way I can understand and empathize with that.  However, I don't think that the outcome of thinking through this need be a spinning-our-wheels-in-the-sand kind of experience.

  Assembly abuse was not only psychological, it was spiritual in nature.  The teaching and practices undermined a correct perception of who God is and what it means to be His child.

  Of course, you cannot separate the psychological from the spiritual, but the point of the attack was at how we understood God, and then it followed that we made conclusions on what God thought of us based on that belief, and these conclusions formed our inner life.

  In the Assembly if we sinned God rejected us and it was up to us to restore the relationship we broke due to our failure.  This rejection by God was more than just God's displeasure, it was a literal abandonment and earning of a curse from God--- we ceased to be "sons" and became "carnal inheritance losers."

 The more we tried to remove the estrangement the deeper it became, until some of us gave up in despair, faked "victory", or just wandered away from any faith at all because, "it didn't work."

   For those who internalized this merit system it had a deep and character forming influence in our lives that was securely rooted.  Add to this the whole cultish relationship structure and you have powerful negative and harmful forces that worked in our lives for many years.

  You cannot experience these things without getting hurt, and though it is painful to face it, "moving on" will only postpone the inevitable.

  Yes, there are those who were not so deeply commited in their inner lives to the "heavenly vision/holy calling", and escaped these things, but I think the majority probably bought most of this stuff hook-line-and sinker (and if you have tried to get a hook out it ain't easy,much less the line and sinker with it).  !

  So, how you now view a "personal relationship with Christ" can be a very pertinent question in my view, to former members.  I can quickly learn that grace means my life as a Christian is a gift based relationship, vs. merit, but have great difficulty having any joy in that fact.

   This can happen because of the automatic nature of my response to situations in life.   As in:  I make a mistake and immediately am overwhelmed with guilt over my failure; that spirals me downward into self loathing and despair.

   Changing these automatic responses will not occur by ignoring them---- healing takes effort on our part, and that effort cannot stop at just learning good teaching.  Personal relationship with God means I must work out in my own life the facts of who God is and what He really thinks of me.  What I know of God must translate into control over my attitudes, behavior, choices, and emotion.

   To apply ouselves to this will change our futility into an expectation for good things from God in our lives, despite our many liabilities!

                                                 God Bless,  Mark C.
 

[Recovering Saint]

  Yes, there are those who were not so deeply commited in their inner lives to the "heavenly vision/holy calling", and escaped these things, but I think the majority probably bought most of this stuff hook-line-and sinker (and if you have tried to get a hook out it ain't easy,much less the line and sinker with it).  !

  So, how you now view a "personal relationship with Christ" can be a very pertinent question in my view, to former members.  I can quickly learn that grace means my life as a Christian is a gift based relationship, vs. merit, but have great difficulty having any joy in that fact.

   This can happen because of the automatic nature of my response to situations in life.   As in:  I make a mistake and immediately am overwhelmed with guilt over my failure; that spirals me downward into self loathing and despair.

   Changing these automatic responses will not occur by ignoring them---- healing takes effort on our part, and that effort cannot stop at just learning good teaching.  Personal relationship with God means I must work out in my own life the facts of who God is and what He really thinks of me. What I know of God must translate into control over my attitudes, behavior, choices, and emotion.

   To apply ouselves to this will change our futility into an expectation for good things from God in our lives, despite our many liabilities!

                                                 God Bless,  Mark C.
 

Mark

Ps 50 says in a negative response but it works as a positive as well "and you thought I was just like you"  God is not keeping score the way we do. He only wants us to have a love for Him and He always loves us. Before I focused on my guilt and went into a freefall while I checked myself out. Now I say Jesus has not left me I left him and the way back is still open just turn around and admit you are wrong accept His forgiveness and you are back. Period end of story. God won't stop loving you but you and I can miss out by our own lack of understanding His love and grace and forgiveness. Don't look at yourself and kick yourself for your sin, Admit your sin, Ask for forgiveness and grace to turn from it from now on and you are back. God is not like us we aren't that gracious and forgiving He is. The self righteous are not able to keep God's laws perfectly and when they fail it is a major disaster and keeps them from recieving His forgiveness while they figure how "they" messed up and so "they will keep 'themselves' from sinning again". The Assembly teaching is what messed us up in our understanding of God's grace and forgiveness. I say God is greater than all my sin and can forgive me and I believe He does and I can continue to serve Him with joy after I confess and forsake my sin. Jesus prayed for us to be kept in His prayer in John 17 and the Father always hears when His Son prays.

John 17 The Holman Christian Standard Bible

11 I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, protect them by Your name that You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We are. 12 While I was with them I was protecting them by Your name that You have given Me. I guarded them and not one of them is lost, except the son of destruction, that the Scripture may be fulfilled. 13 Now I am coming to You, and I speak these things in the world so that they may have My joy completed in them. 14 I have given them Your word. The world hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I am not praying that You take them out of the world, but that You protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world
Hugh

[Recovering Saint]

I have a thought from my reading today from Mark 11:

27 By this time they had arrived in Jerusalem again. As Jesus was walking through the Temple area, the leading priests, the teachers of religious law, and the other leaders came up to him. They demanded, 28 "By whose authority did you drive out the merchants from the Temple? Who gave you such authority?" 29 "I'll tell who gave me authority to do these things if you answer one question," Jesus replied. 30 "Did John's baptism come from heaven or was it merely human? Answer me!" 31 They talked it over among themselves. "If we say it was from heaven, he will ask why we didn't believe him. 32 But do we dare say it was merely human?" For they were afraid that the people would start a riot, since everyone thought that John was a prophet. 33 So they finally replied, "We don't know." And Jesus responded, "Then I won't answer your question either."

God wants honesty when we approach Him. If we try to play games with words to show how 'smart' we are He says basically when you can be real come back and talk and I will answer you. Some may think that this BB is a good place to spar with words. I mention this not because of anything other than to say if you are wise in your own conceit you will not receive the forgiveness and intimacy that comes from knowing Christ with that attitude. If you are seeking God He already is listening and is ready and more than willing to forgive and totally receive you. If you say you have no sin though He says 'then you will die in your sin'. Do I have to wait until I am ready? No you never will be ready by your own effort. Then what is He expecting of me? Honesty. Admit you are a sinner don't try to justify or get morbid about it and introspective about it but CONFESS any known sin and ask Him to completely forgive you and come in and be Lord of your life. (To CONFESS means we agree that sin is sin and we are guilty and make no excuses or blame others).  That is humbling for us but that is all that is necessary. For those who have done that in the past and now find themselves estranged from Jesus CONFESS your new sins and ask Him to FORGIVE you and He will forgive you and your fellowship is restored.

God is not far He is right here and wants us to call to Him for His help to turn us around.

Lord bless you all
Hugh

[Mark C.]

Good thoughts Hugh! 

  In re. to honesty:

  I think of Jesus' words to Nathaniel, "here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false." (JN.1:47)

 The KJV uses the word "guile" for "false" and I think that word does a better job of conveying the thought here.  I don't think Jesus was saying that Nathaniel's heart/motives were pure, rather that he didn't put up a false front.

   Connecting this thought of "honesty" with recovery from the Assembly mindset is necessary, because thinking it through in this way will be helpful to readers here, vs. just becoming a general devotional comment to the average believer.

  People like Nathaniel would have been quickly rejected by the Assembly as being "too critical, negative, not able to stand in unity, divisive, etc."  Yet, Jesus thought of him very highly.

  Of course Jesus himself would not be very welcomed in the Assembly either because of his ability to cut through all the false religious hypocrisy. 

  However, there were many sincere members who bought into the concept that God was served by covering up sin in the group, as well as in their own personal lives.

   It takes time, and subtle manipulation, to "make" an individual's conscience unable to function in an honest manner.  There are a myriad of "spiriutal" rationalizations that allow us to go down the path to hypocrisy.  The Assembly was the perfect environment to create a 'double-souled" individual.

  Once we get out, though we now know better, we most likely will carry with us these large imprints on our soul of dishonest thinking.
  Many of us aren't even aware of how proud and dishonest we are, and it will take time to face the fact of what we've become.

  I will use a personal example to illustrate my point:

   When I first left the Assembly, though I understood that they were very wrong, carried with me 20 years of attitude/character formation that I was not aware of.

  My reaction to the first church we visited was one of instant discomfort as it's format was "seeker sensitive" and as such to be rejected as "man centered" where no true spirituality could exist.

  Still holding to a true Assembly mentality, humanity was not spiritual and the service should have been centered only on "high things" and on a "pure worship."  I judged all in attendence to be a lower kind of believer that had to be coddled to via a lot of entertainment.

   I brought my Bible and was ready for a "serious" time in the word, and excercise of true worship, and instead was treated to some kind of appeal to the lowest common denominator!

   What an arrogant piece of work I was!!!   I figured that God was looking down at me with greater favor because I brought my bible and "thanked God that I was not like the riff-raff that gathered there!"

  It took years for the above to sink in, via different churches that I attended, to show me what a proud Pharisee I actually had been made into!

   The point being, that the Assembly formed my character in such a way, that though in my mind I understood that God relates to us on the basis of his grace, I was ignorant of how that Assembly thinking still dominated my perceptions/attiutdes.

 I had to make the actual connections to my own life, and this requires an honest evaluation of the past and how I live my present life.  Just attending a "healthy church" could not have done this for me, because my definition of a "healthy church" was one where elitism and judgmentalism were considered a virture!

   Many former members will read helpful devotional thoughts on how to live the Christian life by grace, and enjoy them greatly (even while in the Assembly I loved these thoughts and preached on them often).

  If I were to talk with GG today (or any present leader) and suggest that we need to eschew elitism and judmentalism because our relationship with God is graced based I would receive a hearty "amen" from them.

  Where the problem with them would arise is if I claimed that they in practice were elitists and judging, and that the Assembly teaching and practices created Pharisees in their group.  They are unable to accept that their behavior is contrary to their stated beliefs.

    We "on the "outside" are not really interested in the truth, but in attacking those truly serving God," they would say.  There are even those who have left the group who continue in this kind of self deception who refuse to discuss their former involvement honestly.

   Most joined the Assembly because of an intense desire for a "higher life" with God, vs. accepting a mediocrity in our spiritual experience.

 There is nothing wrong with such a passion, but as Peter learned, it will not be via a system of self-righteousness like the Assembly that we will discover it, but through the painful discovery that we are just as fallible as the guy next to us.

  Learning God's love, grace, and mercy as a concept and having it really impact our daily lives are not the same thing.  For the former/present Assembly member we must allow for an honest analysis of what these truths actually mean in our living.

   For GG it means honestly confessing and repenting of his sin. For former leaders, who refuse to talk to former members, it is humble entreatability.  For those who "want to move on" it may mean a willingness to consider what evil they were involved with and how much of that still resides in their souls.

  For others of us:  How is your life going these days?  Do you have a reluctance to attend church?  Do you enjoy reading the bible and prayer?  Do you feel empty and depressed often?  Would you just as soon not talk about "spiritual things."  Are you confused and doubtful about what it means to have a "personal relationship" with God?

 Or possibly you feel that you understand it perfectly and have no idea why former members would have a difficulty with their life with God now?  These, in my opinion, have the greatest need to honestly consider what the Assembly was/is and it's power to mold and twist souls into a cursed shape.

                                                  God bless,  Mark C.

[M2]

Hi Mark,

Today marks the 2nd anniversary of my 'official' departure from the Geftakys assemblies.  I should have waited till July 4th and then I could have celebrated it with your Independence Day eh?? 

....
  Where the problem with them would arise is if I claimed that they in practice were elitists and judging, and that the Assembly teaching and practices created Pharisees in their group.  They are unable to accept that their behavior is contrary to their stated beliefs.

The Ottawa assembly has admitted that they had a problem with elitism.  But having admitted that, they figure that they are doing pretty good for having admitted it and have not really done a thorough investigation of all that the other problems that came with being under GG's administration.

    We "on the "outside" are not really interested in the truth, but in attacking those truly serving God," they would say.  There are even those who have left the group who continue in this kind of self deception who refuse to discuss their former involvement honestly. ....

Some people uses verses like Mark 9:38-41 and Luke 9:49-50 to excuse the continuance of the assembly.

NIV:
MAR 9:38 ¶ "Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
MAR 9:39 ¶ "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me,
MAR 9:40 for whoever is not against us is for us.
MAR 9:41 I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.

LUK 9:49 ¶ "Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us."
LUK 9:50 ¶ "Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you."


Marcia

[al Hartman]

Hi Mark,

Today marks the 2nd anniversary of my 'official' departure from the Geftakys assemblies.  I should have waited till July 4th and then I could have celebrated it with your Independence Day eh?? 

Marcia

Marcia,

A very happy & blessed anniversary and "independence day" to you!

al

[Mark C.]

Many blessed and happy congratulations are in order Marcia!!

  It doesn't seem possible that two years have passed since you left! 

   Maybe you would like to share some of what you've learned since leaving and how you've learned to adjust to life on the "outside."

  Re. Ottawa:  All groups/individuals have an innate desire for self preservation.  We have a natural insecurity that fears loss of our esteem/place (ego).  This is by nature stronger than our desire to seek the truth.  This is why most people have to hit bottom before they are willing to admit they are wrong and need help.

    This self preservation is a most insidious and evil force that works against the Holy Spirit in an individual, and in a group as well; "God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble."

   The Pharisees could quote verses in support of their position, but the bottom line was their motive for doing so: "they feared their place would be taken from them."  They could care less about honesty because of the threat it posed to the retention of their own personal equity.

   I trade futures and stocks and have just read some articles on "trading psychology" that talk about what can control us when we trade.  It was interesting to me how much these studies in human trader psychology relate to this very discussion on being honest with ourselves.

 The number one "trading demon", according to this author, is holding on to a losing position in the hope that it will turn around; we fear loss, and this emotion is stronger than the rational decision to exit a trade that is not going our way.

  The author describes one part of our thinking as "intuitive" and the other as "rational", and when the intuitive controls the rational negative emtions like fear and greed can take over.

   Since Assembly type of "spirituality" is heavily weighted toward the "intuitive", and very fearful of losing the feeling that they are strong spiritually, it becomes an automatic protective response by members to do everything possible, even faking a partial repentance, as long as the group is allowed to continue--- If the group can be "saved" their emotional equity can be saved as well, for without the group they are just another Christian like every other beliver.

  We've seen this from some former members who just can't stand being an insignicant member of a church where they have no power, aren't viewed as "spiritual", or are not adored by those they associate with.  The actual thought that they could learn something from these "carnal Christians" is offensive to them.

  I must confess that I have had to deal with these same kind of "demons" in my own life, and when I first left was largely unaware of them.  Had I not been forced out I would probably have not been forced to deal with these issues and continued in my self deception.

   Jesus came to "lay the axe to the root" of Phariseeism, and this would have been the salvation of these pretenders, but most of these refused to submit to an open process of receiving Jesus' criticism, a full confession of their wrong, and other works that go along with true repentance.

  We all have this "root" in us, and like the child not wanting to face the consequences of his wrong we sometimes avoid taking responsibility for our actions.  This root has a group characteristic as well and evangelical churches are not immune from this natural defense reaction.

   The real question is how to reach such a person/group.  When we are in the presence of such they most certainly will not want to talk about this and will throw out the usual: "you are attacking me, you are bitter, you are being mean, you are reacting against GG or others who did you wrong, you are not forgiving, ad nauseum."

    When I first left the Assembly I tried my best, and supported others in the same effort, to entreat my former associates in the group.  I gave up in utter frustration and figured that the Assembly would continue on as it was without any interruption.

  To my great surprise and joy God was at work (though it seemed to take forever) and he worked, as only he could, to deliver many from that evil system.

  We need to be patient in our hope that God will continue that work and believe that all our efforts to help those involved will not be in vain.  God will not accept a repentance that is only on the surface and he knows how to break down the high walls of spiritual arrogancy and get that true apology.

                                           God Bless,  Mark C.

 

                                           
     

   

[Recovering Saint]

Mark

Excellent. Your response to Marcia really is so great and says what I believe is the root of the problem. Pride. I see it in my life when it rears its ugly head and now I believe the Lord is showing me once again how proud I can be so He can deliver me from it.

I have a few more thoughts from today's reading on Mark 12:

35 Later, as Jesus was teaching the people in the Temple, he asked, "Why do the teachers of religious law claim that the Messiah will be the son of David? 36 For David himself, speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said, 'The LORD said to my Lord, Sit in honor at my right hand until I humble your enemies beneath your feet.' 37 Since David himself called him Lord, how can he be his son at the same time?" And the crowd listened to him with great interest. 38 Here are some of the other things he taught them at this time: "Beware of these teachers of religious law! For they love to parade in flowing robes and to have everyone bow to them as they walk in the marketplaces. 39 And how they love the seats of honor in the synagogues and at banquets. 40 But they shamelessly cheat widows out of their property, and then, to cover up the kind of people they really are, they make long prayers in public. Because of this, their punishment will be the greater."

Before I was talking about how Honesty is necessary for any of us to find or renew our relationship with the Lord. Today one of the pillars of Honesty is revealed. Integrity. We will not know the intimacy and freedom of the Lord if we are not practicing what we preach and showing love to the least of the brethren. If we take advantage of people especially in Jesus name then even if we can quote the whole Bible it amounts to nothing. People who claim to know Christ especially those who are teachers have a great responsibility to live the messages that they preach and be honest and confess their failures and be humble enough to turn from their sin just like the people they are teaching.

Hugh

[sfortescue]

Hi Mark,

Today marks the 2nd anniversary of my 'official' departure from the Geftakys assemblies.  I should have waited till July 4th and then I could have celebrated it with your Independence Day eh?? 

Marcia

Marcia,

A very happy & blessed anniversary and "independence day" to you!

al

Here's a good verse to remember on Independence Day:

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

[M2]

Here's a good verse to remember on Independence Day:

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Thank you Stephen et al.  Now that we are out from under the Geftakys yoke of bondage it is easy to make up a new set of 'rules' and slip into another form of false spirituality, or to spread the Geftakys taint in our new places of fellowship.  Hence Gal 5:1 is a good reminder for us former Geftakys assembly members.

Mark, in response to your request, I might detail it some day, but in short I would say that an honest and repentant heart bears good fruit.

Luke 8:15 "And the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have  heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear  fruit with perseverance."  NASB

Marcia

[al Hartman]

Cathy and I are using a daily devotional guide as a catalyst for learning together, for sharing our personal insights and revelations with each other, and for prayer.  As Marcia has aptly warned, this is not a "rule" or a "method" by which to attain a false sense of spirituality (i.e., changing the label on the yoke of bondage).  Everything has its place, and we must be careful to not let our latest discovery take the place of Christ as the center of our lives.

As the publication we are reading and discussing prepares us to begin a new study, it suggests the following:

     It is a good thing to be wary of doctrinal error.  However, sometimes we mistake a concern for doctrinal purity with a desire to promote our own opinions regarding negotiable matters.  As we prepare to study 2 Peter, pray that God would help you discern between the gospel for which we must be willing to die and the things about which orthodox Christians may charitably disagree.  If you have been contentious over minor matters, make amends with those you have offended.

In this vein, I have become aware that much of my previous posting has been self-promotional, born of an attitude of, "If only everyone would acquiesce to my point of view, everything would be rosy."  Of course, nothing could be farther from the truth:  If all accepted my perspective on everything, sooner or later I would lead everyone to fall into the ditch.  I have been resentful toward some who have opposed my opinions, and have been inappropriately sarcastic and mean toward them.  I have also reacted out of jealousy toward some who are apparently free of restrictions that I impose upon myself.  For these transgressions and sins I apologize and repent. 

Only one viewpoint weighs every consideration and that is the outlook of our Lord Jesus Christ, upon which none of us has a monopoly.  For the future, I know that the Holy Spirit can and will enable all who are willing to cast down imaginations and bring every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.  If at this posting I doubt, it is not in Him but in my own willingness to respond to His Spirit and His Word.  I can promise nothing-- it is He alone whose promises hold firm.  Please pray for me that I will receive, believe and practice the things that He teaches me.

Gratefully,
al

[summer007]

Glad you worked all that out Al.( not sure I understand it, but I'm sure God does) Your in my Prayers! Summer.

[Mark C.]

Very good quote and humble response to it Al!

   The point Al raises here is very important for those of us trying to return from the extreme fringes of religious belief and practices to a more balanced perspective.

  The quote, "charitible with things disputable and adamant in defense of the essential Gospel," has probably been the most important help for me as I read the Bible now.

It is an indispensible moderator against becoming too narrowly focused in a wrong headed crusade to be "right" and convince all others that they are "wrong".

  In the Assembly we were taught that listening to the criticism of other bible believing Christians about our teaching and practices was to listen to "the World, the Enemy, or carnal sin serving Christians."

 This kind of attitude can--- while changing in the particular beliefs from the former to better views--- still prevail with a new set of opinions that center on non-essentials.

  This is why I encourage all former Assembly/cult members to learn the Gospel basics and make them the largest influence when reading any individual text and how they internalize that reading.

   As an example, if you are reading a verse that says something to the the effect that: unless you die to self you will not enter the Kingdom.   You can take that individual text and conclude that Jesus taught a merit based relationship (seems to be the case based on just that one verse).

  But, what does the Gospel of Grace teach us?  Entrance into the Kingdom is based on the free gift of God's grace.  We may not be able to develop a theological system to explain how Jesus seemed to teach two contradictory views of salvation as yet, but we need to give the most weight to the controlling factor of the clear Gospel presentation in the NT.

 I will not go into how different Bible believing Christians understand the above, and only will say now that GG had a very unique interpretation that did not agree with any orthodox evangelical teacher.

  The only point I want to make here is that, regardless of my own post-cult thinking, the way out is to zoom in on the most essential of the essentials which is a clear understanding of the Gospel of the Grace of God!  As this wonderful sight fills our mind first we then can consider individual texts and how they might align themselves with the controlling factor of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

  As the above view influences our thinking then our attitudes will change toward ourselves, other Christians, and the World at large.   It will deliver us from a "party" spirit that can take on a fanatic defense of our "sacred" views that destroys unity.

   Now, there are things for which we must fight, but again that fight should be for the truth of the essential Gospel teaching, and also for truth in behavior.

         "Truth in Behavior? I don't hear too much mentioned about this as being essential by defenders of the faith", some may say.

    I believe Jesus/NT puts just as much weight on moral clarity/honesty as he does with defending the true Gospel teaching.  Even if the Assembly was totally orthodox in their teaching (which they were not) their abusive treatment of members made Jesus so disgusted that he stayed on the outside knocking to get in.  Now, He may be still knocking, but none on the inside will listen (a much more serious condition)!

  Fringe groups maximize the non-essentials at the expense of the essentials, and this creates a bizarre enviroment with the potential to "make" members into either religious monsters or broken prisoners of perpetual defeatism.

    Jesus came to give us liberry first, via His gift of free grace, and without a firm standing here it will be impossible to produce any fruit of God "made" character in our lives.  The only block to this work of the HS in our lives will be be a lack of humility by being honest when entreated by our conscience.

                                                       God Bless,  Mark C.
   

[Margaret]

Great point you are making about the gospel, Mark. Toward the end, though, you make a statement on another topic that I would question:

Even if the Assembly was totally orthodox in their teaching (which they were not) their abusive treatment of members made Jesus so disgusted that he stayed on the outside knocking to get in. Now, He may be still knocking, but none on the inside will listen (a much more serious condition)!

I think it would be helpful to make a clearer distinction here between Assembly leaders and the members, rather than lumping everyone together as "the Assembly." I  know you have often made that distinction in previous posts, but you never know when a new person to the board is reading for the first time. A blanket black-and-white statement like this makes it difficult to make sense of one's Ass'y experience. It robs you of the life with God you experienced while you were there. Also there are no doubt still sincere believers in the existing Assemblies who are listening to Jesus to the extent they are able. (The leaders, however, have so far shown themselves to be in another category.)

Margaret

[Mark C.]

Thanks for asking for the clarification Margaret!

   When I think of the Assembly, past and present, I am heavily influenced by certain Biblical examples of groups gone bad.  In my last post I referenced "Jesus on the outside" from the church at Laodicea.  In the past, I have illustrated Assembly errors as being systematic in nature, as exemplified in the Pharisees practices.

   There is clear evidence that individual Pharisees did respond to Jesus and came out of that system, just as I'm sure that not each and every Laodicean made Jesus sick.

  However, had either of these individuals in the above groups ignored the entreaty of Jesus, by chosing loyalty to the group vs. responding to Jesus call, they would have placed themselves under the condemnation of The Lord.

  The present group in the Assembly have moved on from where we were when we were members.  God has spoken very clearly and loudly to those inside that they were involved with things that were very wrong.

  If the menality in the group remains one that "GG made mistakes, his teaching was good", and that there is an attempt to deny the many abuses of the past; then each member is at odds with God and is insensitive to God's guidance in their lives. 

   This doesn't mean they lose their salvation, or that God doesn't love them, but that they are living in a cultic and harmful environment and need to face these facts.  Supporting them with the fantasy that one can live in such a system and still serve God as an individual does not help them in the least.

    Of course, new members may join-up and not know any of this, and only hear the spin on Assembly history from present leaders wanting to distort the facts in order to build their own empires.  For these we must be very gentle and patient in our approach, as they are truly ignorant.

    It does seem unfair sometimes that Jesus generalized his strong criticism of false religious teaching/practices, knowing that there were individuals within who sought to reform these groups. But, I think that the reason that he categorically condemned them was because he knew reformation of these systems was worthless.

  He was "laying the axe to the root" of a false way of religious life that not only was not good, it actually served evil.  As I've said before, the Pharisees "made their converts twice the sons of hell as they were." 

  "How can bible believing born again Christians serve evil, and does this "rob us of our life with God, or of making sense of that whle we were in the Assembly?"

  For those former members now gone the above question needs to be seriously pondered, and as a result can mean "beauty coming out of ashes", but we have to be careful not to say that those ashes of Assembly involvement were even partially some kind of beauty, vs. the dead works that they were.

    Why God allowed us to go through the Assembly experience can be answered as an opportunity to learn from our mistakes, but never that the Assembly was just a "good idea gone bad."  If we say this, then we will attempt to reform the system (current assemblies) and never understand what God really was trying to communicate to us re. our Assembly past.

   Clear distincitions need to be made between deceived members and manipulative, ego centric, and dishonest leaders, but it takes both to make a cult, and without a doubt that is what GG loyal groups have become (even if one thinks they were not before).

   This is a good discussion to have, and I hope that any present member of the Assembly reading here would feel free to post their defense of the Assembly as actually representing God's will for Christians today, or how my characterization of their faith is incorrect.

                                           God Bless,  Mark C.