WOUNDED PILGRIMS

[Mark C.]

Hi Everyone,

   Looks like everyone is having a very busy summer away from the computer, and that is a good thing.  It is a healthy thing to get out and get your mind onto different things.

  On the chance that there may be some reading who are following this discussion (I know that there are at least a couple from the emails I get) I would like to clarify my last post that was in response to Margaret.

   It would be very wrong for me to suggest that I can put some kind of quality rating on each individual Assembly member, as to their standing before the Lord.  I did not mean to pass judgment on their eternal state, or even their sincerity.

   We will all stand before the Lord and answer for our poor judgment, lack of faith, etc. and I will need all the mercy that I can get at that moment.

 However, it is not a claim to moral or theological superiority that causes me to be very critical of what the Assembly teaches, practices, and of how it is capable of doing serious harm to believers.

  Jesus, Paul, etc. made generalizations and gave labels to certain groups.  When Paul said, (quoting one of Crete's own prophets) " Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.  This testimony is true." (Tit. 1:12); he was not putting himself in God's place by passing judgment on each individual, but describing the popular culture.

 Likewise, when I talk about the Assembly I'm talking about the culture of the group as a whole, and how God might view what is taught and practiced there.

    We have to be able to make these kind of judgments, or we lose our ability to make any sense at all of how we are to believe and practice our faith.   

   As an example, there may be those in the Mormon church who sincerely desire to follow God.  They believe that they are obeying God and following his direction by being faithful to the group.  I cannot judge their heart before God, but I can judge that Mormon teaching is not from God and determine that the individual member should get out and learn what it really means to have a relationship with God.

   Some may say, "Mark,that is not a fair analogy because Mormon's are far more abberant in their theology than the Assembly ever was."

  Do you think so?  GG talked about having "special spectacles" to see what the Angels were teaching him as he read the bible--- throw in man's creation on the 7th day, etc. and I'd say he was out there on the rings of Saturn somewhere!!

   Sure, many thought these teachings were a little strange, but not the core beliefs of the individual member, and if you asked a present Mormon about some of their weirder teachings they would dismiss our bringing them to their attention as not being the basis for their faith and involvement in the group.

  But, teaching is not the only thing that God is concerned with in a group that "names the name of Christ."  God has just as much interest in our moral practices as he does in our theological beliefs.  These two things are inseparable issues, and the moment we don't keep these in balance we get into trouble.

   The Assembly was far worse than your local LDS gathering,as regards the way the group operated.  Probably, most Mormon churches do not have 70 year old leaders taking advantage of young women in the group, etc.

   Also, though Mormons do relate to God via the organization vs. as individuals before God, the Assembly turned up the heat in a much more intense way to dissuade disloyalty to GG and the Assembly:   Mormons do not threaten those who are not "faithful to the vision' with being "harmed of the second death"!  Mormons support individual family structure, while the Assembly broke up families and enforced the neglect of healthy family relationships.

   I say none of this to promote Mormon beliefs, but for a comparison of the two cultures in an attempt to see how some can say the Assembly was a "cult" vs. just a "church that lost it's way."

  " But, there are all kinds of regular evangelical churches that can have problems Mark," some may say.  Of course, and individual moral failures/weakness will abound wherever people gather, but in a cult these things are covered up, denied, and those pointing out the failures are called, "of the devil, sowers of discord, etc."

   The present Assemblies (GG loyal and Geftakys lite versions both) have not come to grips with their true history.  Some may admit to GG failures, but support his teaching and deny that there was any kind of abuse in the group.

 The members are still calling what many of us are talking about  here as, "of the Devil, sowing discord, lies, distortions, etc."  Meanwhile they attend weddings where George and Betty are invited and where they are treated with respect and honor!

  What do you think God thinks of Assembly members who receive and honor a man who in the name of God seduced young believers and when he was caught lied and refused to confess and repent?  Of the wife of this man who advised these young ladies to "be careful not to get pregnant" with her philandering husband?!

  Or,what do you think of the dishonest system that he left as a legacy of his depraved mind?  No, not just a church with a leader that stumbled, but a church formed around that immoral man and designed to promote him,and his own family,and to serve his own sinful passions?!!

   Yes, any church can fall into this, but if it does God's Spirit cannot recognize it as a true church of Jesus Christ and it becomes for all practical purposes just another cult.

 The Bible does not use the word "cult" as I've just described it, and as it is commonly used today by evangelical Christians, but if we just compare a group like the LDS church with the Assembly we can at least see that there are some systemic problems with both of them that put them at odds with God's will.

    Even though GG is gone from an existing Assembly,and his behavior is acknowledged as being wrong,an unwillingness to receive entreaty declares that the groups are not following the "wisdom that comes from above" and are only trying to rescue their own place of power in the group, or serving some other "lower' motive.

        Have a great weekend and God Bless,  Mark C.

 
   


   

[al Hartman]

Mark,

Just to keep this "conversation" from becoming a monolog , I'll toss in a couple of comments:

   We will all stand before the Lord and answer for our poor judgment, lack of faith, etc. and I will need all the mercy that I can get at that moment.

The faithful may also expect to be arrayed in white linen (the righteous deeds of the saints) and to be given gold crowns.  There is a lot of theology wrapped up in these thoughts.  The bottom line is that we will each account individually for the lives we have lived as professing believers, and the things we have thought, said and done will be made clearly known, both by their performance and by their motives.  There will be no human pride at that time, but only gratitude, praise, worship and thanksgiving, as we all acknowledge that any and all good to be found in us was given us by the mercy and grace of our God through Jesus Christ.

The righteous deeds that will be rewarded are those that resulted from abiding in Him and allowing His life and love to be expressed through the branches of the Vine (the members of His body).  The crowns freely given will be more than gladly returned as offerings to Him...

  ...God has just as much interest in our moral practices as he does in our theological beliefs.  These two things are inseparable issues, and the moment we don't keep these in balance we get into trouble.

Theology and practice are indeed inseperable, but are of true value to us ONLY in their proper relationship with one another (cf Jas.2:14-26).  This may be one of the most commonly misunderstood concepts in Christianity.  Countless people have become embroiled in discussion, debate, argument, even hostility over the question of free will vs predestination when considering faith and works. 

Our Lord is very clear on one point regarding such matters: a little child has no difficulty receiving and believing the essentials (Mk.10:13-16), and that should be of tremendous encouragement to us.  The kingdom of heaven is perceived, not merely by cognition or by emotion, nor by a proper balance of the two, but spiritually (cf Jn.4:23-24).  We, even as adults, must (implying, obviously, that we not only can, but may) become as little children in order to partake of spiritual things, i.e. the kingdom of God.  That is why we must first be born again (Jn.3:3-8).

Believers clamor to hear these truths explained to their intellectual satisfaction, and/or to "experience" them emotionally, because these are the methods most familiar to us, the methods we have learned and utilized since our birth.  But that which is spirit (God, and the things of God) is spiritually discerned, an entirely separate dimension which, although it may and doubtless will affect our emotions and intrigue our intellects, is not primarily apprehended by either.  So Paul explains that we "learn" Christ (Eph.4:20), not by the vanity of the mind (v.17) nor by our feelings, which will fail us (v.19), but by hearing (by the Word of God [Rom.10:17] ), Christ, and being taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus, to put off the conduct of the old man which is corrupt through deceitful lusts, and to be renewed in spirit in our minds, clothing ourselves in the righteousness and holiness of the new creation we have become and are yet becoming in Christ (vv.22-24).

These matters are clearly stated in the Bible, yet the means of personally applying them do not always seem so clear to us.  Again, that is because we have behind us a lifetime of navigating by intellect and emotion, charts which are initially useless to us in spiritual waters.  What, then are we to do?

We must (1.) Come to Jesus and find in Him rest for our souls (Mt.11:28-30).  We must also (2.) ask, seek and knock in order to receive, find and be answered (Mt.7:7-8).

   Grace and peace be multipied to you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,
   According as His divine power has given to us all, things that pertain to life and godlinessthrough the knowledge of Him who has called us to glory and virtue:
   By which are given to us precious promises that exceed greatness:  that by them you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.  (2Pet.1:2-4)

In Christ,
al

[Mark C.]

Thanks Al,

  I understand that the relationship between faith and behavior can be a difficult debate, but the intent of my post was not to discuss my theological opinions re. this.

  I would be more interested in hearing what you think about my responses to Margaret's question re. my generalizing when discussing Assembly members experience.

   The reason I brought in the fact that behavior matters to God in a church group is because this truth is often ignored if the offending group has a basically orthodox Christian theology.  If the group has "born again" believers it is assumed to escape the nefarious nom-de-plume of "cult."

   I also wanted to make the point that there is such a thing as God judging how "churches" behave as a group (their culture) as opposed to just how God views an individual's behavior.  How this all fits into salvation by grace and rewards is an intertesting disucssion, but not my intention here. 

    Cults' "act", or possess certain characteristics, that place them outside of how God wants his church to behave.  Protecting sinful leaders, denying  of culpability by former members involvement in these actions, angry rejection of entreaty from brethren outside of the group, and trying to turn the tables by attacking those trying to open dialogue are all cult like behaviors.

   Only God can know how many of these present members are unsaved, ignorant, have evil motives, sincerely deceived, etc. but from our stand point here we can only observe their actions and if they act like a cult we can make the generalization that the group has a church culture that makes Jesus sick.

   If I'm wrong , then I would like to be shown why, and if I'm right  we must show enough care for members to reach out to them  with an entreaty to face the truth re. what they are really involved with.

 If they refuse to discuss it (as an organization) and are trying to "avoid bitter former members anger" then they are again taking a stand that the Moonies, etc. would take.  It proves they are more interested in defending their group then doing the will of God.   

                                                God Bless,  Mark C.

[al Hartman]

Mark,

Please don't think that I missed your points in your response to Margaret & in your next post following that one.  Rather, I thought you posted quite effectively, needing no backup or dissent from me.  So I posted instead regarding points with which I think others may be having difficulties.  Sometimes I think that the frequent posters develop a mutual familiarity with each other's  comments that brings about conversational shortcuts which may result in the occasional reader's being left out in the cold, so to speak.

This thread seems an appropriate place for the comments of my last post.  Because they don't directly address your posts doesn't make them less pertinent to the needs of some who read here.  Even the few who post on a given thread often represent a broad spectrum of Christian experience, maturity, and interests or concerns, allowing for that thread to carry several ongoing discussions simultaneously.

I had not meant to seem as if I were refuting anything you had said, nor was I trying to take issue with any of your remarks.  Just exploring some other thoughts that seem to me to be significantly related to yours.
Regarding your own posts, as I told you in an e-mail I believe that the Lord's "laying the axe to the root of the tree" in comprehensively condemning the religious practices of the Pharisees constituted not only a condemnation of their ungodly cultic pracices, but served as a wake-up call to those whose hearts were inclined toward the Lord and His kingdom-- a sort of shock therapy to jolt them from the humdrum complacency that sets in when someone self-assured & charismatic is running the show.

Your assessments of the present assys, both pro-George & anti-George are pretty much right-on to my way of thinking.  In most cases, key posters are closer to the situation than I, both geographically and chronologically, so I am grateful for and somewhat dependent upon the updates by others of the status quo.
My previous post was not for the sake of debate, but to share what I believe to be valuable information for any who want it...

Blessings,
al

[Mark C.]

Hi Al,
   
    I'm sorry for sounding a bit argumentative, but I was expecting a response more in line with what we were talking about via email, and to the point that I was raising.

    As I mentioned in my email to you, I am feeling a little tired and grumpy due to long days at work and the .53 drop in soybeans for the week! (what me worry?)

  Everyone,

  I think Marcia is right when she said that it is the "drama" on the BB that attracts the most active interest here---- everyone slows down to look when there's a wreck on the freeway.

   This topic is not much for "drama", and the kind of "wreckage" that goes on in the lives of Assembly members isn't usually very apparent.   Also, for former members who were not that deeply affected by their involvement in the group there is a lack of interest in what they might see as a preoccupation with the past.

   As I've said before, there is great value in understanding our past participation, because there is a wealth of valuable insight to be gained. 

   After 15 years or so of talking with former/present cult members I have observed certain kinds of responses to the topic of "Wounded Pilgrims."  The responses range from great hostility to apathy.  It may be more interesting to ask why former members respond the way they do to the topic, vs. what they actually have to say.

                    Different responses:

1.) Atheism:  There are those who go from a very intense religious commitment, and ostensibly a faith in God, to just as an intense zeal to faith that there is no God!

       We can analyze the above from a theological or psychological perspective in an attempt to understand why this might be so, but this is not necessary for our purpose of making the point that their atheism is a "response" to their former involvement.

    Attacking their belief that there is no God will prove as fruitless as was attacking their beliefs while members of the Assembly.  Why?  Because they hold both positions via their emotions, not via a rational conviction.

    Right away the above can be very instructive for former members, as they can learn that convictions should not be led with how we feel.

(when I use the word "feel" I am not just talking about mood, but the whole area of inner life that causes us to be truly human.  This gives us the ability to have empathy, compassion, anger against evil, feel bad about wrong, feel pride, be humble, feeling guilt and shame, or the distortion of this last feeling, etc.)

2,) Getting on with life:

    No one can argue with no. 2 as an important thing for a former member.  However, the phrase is meaningless unless we ask what it means for the individual expressing a desire to do this, "getting on with."

   The one above can have the most angry response to a question that asks, "what do you mean by saying this, etc------".  Even more violent than the atheist, it can invoke an instant refusal to discuss the subject.   Why?

   Again, I think the answer lies in the fact that this is an emotional response.   These individuals are usually trying to run away from their past.  They fear to confront their own demons and figure that by putting the most time and distance between them and this past they will be safe.

   "Wait a second Mark!  I thought you were all interested in how important emotions  (see my definition of emotion above) are, and that 'Wounded Pilgrims' was about healing for emotions.  Why do you seem to be saying that the answer to our problems is in learning to "think" about our involvement and understand how emotions deceived us!"

   Good question!    Emotions make us human, and spirituality includes our humanity.  If we all became Vulcans (Spock like) we would be insensitive to moral issues.  We would be unable to love God, one another, hate evil, feel conviction for sin, etc. without our emotional life. 

    However, it is our rational ability that must control how we feel about things.

   An example:  I do something wrong and feel badly about it (this is good and as it should be) but I allow this bad feeling to control my entire view of self and I go home and kick the dog and am nasty with the wife.  In this scenario my emotions control my attitudes and behavior, vs. the Spirit of God.

  How does the Spirit work in my emotions then?  Rarely will God work directly on the emotions (though he can) because that will not build character/inner strength in our lives. 

   In the above example, when we feel bad for falling short, we need to be able to resolve our inner difficulty with a rational trust in what God has said about his commitment to us in our deepest need and despair.   Guilt that controls us is an abnormal and destructive power in our souls.

3.) Those that are very thankful for a place to talk where there are those who can listen with empathy.

    That was me, when I first left, and from my past experience I know it is many "guests" who may come here to read.  Most of these are frightened to enter the public sphere, but it is mostly for these that I continue to write here.

    Most of these have a strong faith in God, but have serious doubts about themselves.  They are confused because they also served God from "their heart" and now it appears that their zeal was all misdirected!

   They will never go the way of the atheist, for they believe in God, but what they believe about themselves is distorting their relationship with God to the point that they live hopeless lives.

    These strongly "feel" their relationship with God, and also painfully feel their own weaknesses.  These indeed need to have this "inner arrangement" transformed by learning to think differently about their relationship with God.

   This is not as easy as some may think, because for decades they were raised in a toxic religious enviornment that formed deep habits in their souls that have become very controlling.

    What happens when a life is lived under these kinds of emotional controls is the actual "making" of a new personality out of the old one.  I have talked about the two ends of that spectrum before: with the Assembly leader type at one end, and the lowly defeated shamed member at the other.

   Just taking this person to a "healthy church" and providing "good teaching" will not bring about a proper connection between that goodness and my own experience as a believer.

   I hope the above provides some help for those who find themselves in one of the above categories, or possiblity there are those who would like to argue against what I've said here.  Either way, feel free to comment.

                                            God Bless,  Mark C.
   

   

   

[Recovering Saint]

Mark

For me I enjoy reading your posts because it brings out thoughts I could not express in such clear manner. I am one who has found a healthy Church and yes it is VERY important I believe for going on with the Lord.

I also believe that those who pussyfoot with the former FRIENDS in the the Assembly still and I include those that don't acknowledge GG anymore are not ABLE TO BE TOTALLY FREE. The Toxic Teaching goes on in a new flavour and that is because they will never repent of their association with GG as long as they don't seriously look at why WE ALL were attracted to the Assembly in the first place. They have still got to deal with that and they won't.

The Assembly is all about self. I am a sinner (self). God is better than me and worthy of praise but not me. (self preocupied) If I am a good Christian things are good. (self)

The focus is on duty (self) and not on Grace what God has done. It has always been like that and will always be that because people in the Assembly Have to save themselves by DOING DOING DOING and judging those who aren't doing what they are doing.

Those who leave have a vacuum because they say what AM I SUPPOSED TO DO. That is why they run from God or run from the past they are still guilty inside because they DON'T REALIZE THAT IT IS DONE FOR THEM already. The Alcoholic focuses on his condition and says  I AM AN ALCOHOLIC the Assembly person says I AM A SINNER both maybe true but the focus is not on CHRIST and HIS WORK and HIS GRACE and HIS FORGIVENESS and HIS POWER TO SAVE ME AND KEEP ME.

For those still in it is also a problem of BRAINWASHING which keeps them from accepting that there is life outside the PERFECT LITTLE FLOCK. I HIGHLY recommend everyone see the new movie THE ISLAND. I got goosebumps thinking about the Assembly parallels in it.

Mark keep up the good work the battle is still not won until all are secure in following Christ and knowing He is enough and will never leave them or forsake them.

Lord  Bless
Hugh.

[al Hartman]

Mark

For me I enjoy reading your posts because it brings out thoughts I could not express in such clear manner. I am one who has found a healthy Church and yes it is VERY important I believe for going on with the Lord.

Hugh, it's my opinion that, for a guy who thinks he can't express clearly, you are VERY clear and helpful:

The Assembly is all about self. I am a sinner (self). God is better than me and worthy of praise but not me. (self preocupied) If I am a good Christian things are good. (self)

The focus is on duty (self) and not on Grace what God has done. It has always been like that and will always be that because people in the Assembly Have to save themselves by DOING DOING DOING and judging those who aren't doing what they are doing.

Those who leave have a vacuum because they say what AM I SUPPOSED TO DO. That is why they run from God or run from the past they are still guilty inside because they DON'T REALIZE THAT IT IS DONE FOR THEM already. The Alcoholic focuses on his condition and says  I AM AN ALCOHOLIC the Assembly person says I AM A SINNER both maybe true but the focus is not on CHRIST and HIS WORK and HIS GRACE and HIS FORGIVENESS and HIS POWER TO SAVE ME AND KEEP ME.

To me, it couldn't be much clearer than that.  Thanks, brother!

al

[Mark C.]

Good Sunday Morning!!

 Hugh:  I agree with Al that you are very clear in what you present here, and that "self preoccupation" , in all it's forms, needs to be replaced with a focus on Christ

   I received an excellent response via email to my last post that argued that my encouragement to former members to "understand their past participation" was in itself a "preoccupation with self" and diverted us from the the most important answer to our need which is "looking to Christ."

    The emailer suggested that this was not "escapism", to avoid musing about my past in the Assembly, and to start attending a "healthy church".  Indeed, this emailer suggested that my encouragement to "think about our past involvement" would divert us from our most essential focus just as much as our Assembly self focus did.


                 Focusing on Christ, instead of Self

   What does this mean?  The phrase by itself has become a kind of a glib statement, in some Christian circles, that has the general sense of "don't worry---be happy."

   In the Assembly it meant to be enthusiastic in the meetings, to be rejoicing in all we did, and to ignore negative things around us.  Obviously, the emailer and Hugh would not endorse this Assembly concept of "focusing on Christ."  

   In the past, I mentioned a talk that I had with a pastor of a church I attended when I first left the Assembly.   This talk followed a sermon he gave on "intimacy with Christ."  In his sermon he said that this was the most important "focus" of our lives as Christians.

   I asked him what he meant by "intimacy" and how we were to actually realize this in our lives, and he was unable to answer the question.  He was actually puzzled when confronted with translating the correct phrase into how it could be experienced in the life.

 (Now, this pastor was a very good man, and devoted to his ministry, but the fact that my question threw him for a loop shows that he was basing his ministry on the recitation of "spiritual phrases" without thinking about how that can be internalized by our humanity.)

   This is all I'm talking about when I mention "giving thought to our past involvement."  I'm not talking about morbid searches into all our inner conflicts, rather an honest assessment of what the Assembly was/is.

   This should start with an honest look at where I am now as a Christian:

1.) For the self proclaimed atheist:  Is my atheism an emotional reaction to the Assembly experience, or is it based on good thinking.

   2.) To the former leader who believes the Assembly was just a good idea gone bad due to GG alone; and not an abusive system:  Why are you unwilling to consider that you might be wrong and refuse to discuss these things?  As I said before, the refusal to talk tells me more than anything that you are defending your self from honest reflection on your past Assembly participation.

     3.) To the "wounded pilgrim" who is filled with self doubt, not doubt re. Christ, but about their own understanding and ability to follow Christ.   For this individual it would seem that my emailer would be most interested in dissuading a "look into the past" and would enjoin a positive turning of of their focus to Christ and what he has done for them, vs. discovering the source of their own malaise.

     Generalized advice for the many former members in this state with the use of a phrase, "look unto Christ", can have the same positive effect as saying, "Don't worry---be happy!"

     To apply the phrase above, "look unto Christ" effectively we need to ask the question, "how does that actually work in my own particular situation." (like the "intimacy" sermon above).  For the former Assembly member attending a "healthy church," who wishes to grow in their life with Christ, they will automatically interpret these good phrases as they learned them in their former context in the Assembly.

    These phrases are felt first, as they received them in the group.  It is these emotional blockages to good thinking that must be overcome in order to benefit from the "good teaching" in the "healthy church."

   Again, the former member who had to leave the church service upon hearing preaching on Acts. 2:42---- because it reminded them of "the 4 anchors", is a demonstration of how powerful these emotional wounds can be in our lives.

  It can rob us of our own enjoyment of God's blessings; and just telling such a person to "look to Christ," and "stop being a victim of your past", will only create a great deal of frustration in their lives---- it will not help them in their lives with Christ.

   "Well". my emailer suggests, "possibly you are using this victim status to make excuses for not obeying Christ."  In other words, the solution to all such problems is just to take responsibility for your own life and start to make good decisions-----there are no excuses (psychological or otherwise) to not just overcoming the past ("forgetting those things that are past, let us press on, etc.).

   This is a great ideal, and none of us is beyond "making excuses" for our own character flaws.  We need to honestly face these flaws, and as the emailer suggests, "trust Christ and his finished work to sanctify us."

    Again, a great goal, but pie-in-the-sky if it isn't evaluated in light of the real life we live.   This "evaluation" should not be some kind of Assembly soul searching of deep hidden "root problems of sin," rather a honest look at my attitudes and behavior.

    Christ has purchased for us a complete salvation by grace, and sin in all of it's ramifications has been dealt with in our souls.  We need not try to search and irradicate sin in our hearts, for we are indeed trusting Christ for this.
  
   But, the particular evil environment of the Assembly had an inescapable formative influence in our souls.  For us, as former members, we must "work out" the facts of what that evil produced in our lives, and work to counter it with the truth of our gift based relationship of grace.  To just treat these realities with an exhortation to "focus on Christ instead of self" is not helpful in the least, though the phrase suggests a very high and good goal.

    The early church had a big problem with a large group of former Jews who had followed the Pharisees, but now had believed in the Gospel, joining in with the Apostles.   The NT is filled with this conflict, and how that God finally had to break up this church and scatter those in Jerusualem throughout the Roman empire.

  It would have done no good for Peter and Paul to exhort these "trouble makers" with an exhortation to, "look to Christ" for these Judeaizers thought they were already doing so; and they thought they believed in a much better fashion then did the Apostle Paul and Peter.

 Many verses had to be devoted in explanation of what it meant to live under the New Covenant as Christians.  An interpretation of "looking to Christ" had to be made in order for them to learn that they were in error and what was the correct way to think and act.

    Peter was corrected by Paul for "not walking according" to grace, because of his behavior in Antioch.  This shows that grace can be seen in how we live.

     How are you doing as a Christian?  How is grace working in your life?  

 First, you must be honest.  No vague spiritualizing, or refrence to Assembly like spiritual applications----"I am learning to trust Christ more, etc."

   Second: is your temperment filled with anxiety, bitterness, anger, hostility, sadness, despair----  We all experinece these things to some degree, but the question is whether they control all my hours and days?  God intends for our lives to be filled with joy and peace, as this is a fruit of the Spirit.

 If we are not enjoying these things, as former Assembly members, it most likely can be traced back to our past toxic environment.   The poison, like with the Judeaizers in the early church, was a faulty understanding of our grace based relationship with God, but the effects of having for decades taken that poison in is an inner "making" that actually damages the soul (not as regards salvation, but as to our own character, attitudes, thinking,and emotions.)

   I have used as an example my own struggle with guilt.  I know very clearly that my relationship with God is based on grace and can quote a great deal of scripture re. this.  However, when faced with real life situations there is a kind of automatic response that kicks in by decades of habit that I have to work very hard at to counter.

  However, I now know that this bad inner habit of response is due to years of hearing God's voice as a continual angry disappointment of my ability to achieve inner purity.  GG and the Assembly could never be pleased, and this was translated into my own view of self.  That bad belief, just like a whip or cllub would work on the body, was used to damage my inner life.  This is the reality of "Spiritual Abuse", and one for which Jesus warned us against!

   God has not called us to "kill the self life", as in our own egos.  God sent Jesus Christ to save our self life (who we are as distinct persons).  There is nothing wrong in being conscious of self, as long as it is with the understanding that our person has a new identity as a child of God, fully saved, destined for eternity, and  hasa future filled with blessing and hope!!

                                         God Bless,  Mark C.

[al Hartman]

Mark, according to your quotations of your mystery e-mailer, I would have to say he/she is full of baloney.  For example,

   "Well". my emailer suggests, "possibly you are using this victim status to make excuses for not obeying Christ."  In other words, the solution to all such problems is just to take responsibility for your own life and start to make good decisions-----there are no excuses (psychological or otherwise) to not just overcoming the past ("forgetting those things that are past, let us press on, etc.).

 
If this is the sum & substance of his/her position, it is no better than a fairy tale.

But, if it is possible that you may be misinterpreting the thoughts of your correspondent, and thereby misrepresenting his/her intentions, you may be wiser to ask questions about the message, in an attempt to clarify it, than to try to answer imagined arguments that are not being presented.

You continued by saying:

   This is a great ideal, and none of us is beyond "making excuses" for our own character flaws.  We need to honestly face these flaws, and as the emailer suggests, "trust Christ and his finished work to sanctify us."

    Again, a great goal, but pie-in-the-sky if it isn't evaluated in light of the real life we live.   This "evaluation" should not be some kind of Assembly soul searching of deep hidden "root problems of sin," rather a honest look at my attitudes and behavior.

I would take exception with the sentence I have underlined above.  Quite the converse is true:  The life I live must be evaluated in light of Christ and His finished work.

I would suggest that you ask this writer what is meant by such statements as "Trust Christ and His finished work," or "Look unto Christ."  The reason to do this is simple:  In the assembly, as in the church sermon on "intimacy with Christ" to which you refer, there was/is legitimate English phraseology and scripture quotation.  Because of our histories of sitting under the misapplication of both scripture and illustrative language, some of us have grown an aversion to certain terms-- we may shy, cower or run from them, or lash back with hostility.  But our reactions serve only to legitimize the abuses, thus shrouding the true meanings of the verses, phrases and words.  We have labored for years under a legalistic system of works-for-rewards that was labeled for us as "grace."  Has this illegitimized the term & concept of grace, or can we look beyond the abuses, unto Christ through His Word and by His Spirit, to find and appreciate true grace, regardless of the poor teachings of our pasts?

"Looking unto Jesus" is a scriptural phrase, and therefore must have a genuine true meaning.  We cannot afford to discount it because it has failed us (or we have failed it) in the past.  Ask that writer for a clear explanation of what is meant by this and other questionable terms before you discount them...  or I will: Hey, writer, we need more input!  Explain yourself if you are able!

          Focusing on Christ, instead of Self

   What does this mean?  The phrase by itself has become a kind of a glib statement, in some Christian circles, that has the general sense of "don't worry---be happy."

I can't argue with you here, but I will ask: who decides what is glib?  We may be quick to accuse others of being glib, but slow to admit to ourselves when it is we who are doing so.  "Born again" may be glibly used-- at least the whole english-speaking world has heard & possibly used the term, but how many recognize it as a scriptural, spiritual reality?  Does the glibness negate the truth?

It is up to each of us to decide how genuine is our comprehension and application of the words we speak.  You mention honesty-- here is a good place to start, by being honest with God and with ourselves about whether we truly believe and mean the things we say.  Or are we merely parroting what we have heard in an effort to convince ourselves we are spiritual?

Blessings,
al

[Oscar]

Al,

You said:

I would take exception with the sentence I have underlined above.  Quite the converse is true:  The life I live must be evaluated in light of Christ and His finished work.

OK, how do you recommend that this be done?  How will you know that you have accomplished this?

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

[al Hartman]

In chronological order:

Mark quoted an e-mailer as having said,

"trust Christ and his finished work to sanctify us."

  ...to which Mark responded,

  ...a great goal, but pie-in-the-sky if it isn't evaluated in light of the real life we live.

  ...to which I replied,

I would take exception with the sentence I have underlined above.  Quite the converse is true:  The life I live must be evaluated in light of Christ and His finished work.

  ...upon which Tom asks,

Al,

OK, how do you recommend that this be done?  How will you know that you have accomplished this?

The statement starting all this was, "Trust Christ and His finished work to sanctify us."  I hope that the phrase "His finished work" is not in question (Jn.17:4; 19:30), and it is the idea that we should trust in it that Mark suggests must be "evaluated in light of the real life we live."

In Eph.4:20-5:4 Paul describes what it means to "Learn Christ."  The chronology of learning Christ begins with hearing Him and being taught by Him, "as the truth is in Jesus."  We must remember that without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb.11:6) and that faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Rom.10:17).  We must first hear the truth before we can believe it, and we must be believing it before we can please God.

These prerequisites being established, we may then continue with the turning from our former sinful behavior, to being renewed spiritually and mentally, and to beginning to conduct our lives in righteousness, godliness and holiness, as detailed in scripture.

When we sing "Trust and obey," we have the cart squarely behind the horse where it belongs.  To attempt to obey-and-trust would be to suggest that our redemption is by our own works and not by grace alone (Eph.2:8-9).

We also need to acknowledge that "Christ's finished work" does not imply that God has moved on to other things, leaving us to take care of ourselves from now on...  Paul was confident that the work that Christ had finished was but the beginning of God's work in His saints, and that His work in us will continue "until the day of Jesus Christ" (Ph.1:6).  He goes on to say that God's working in us is what enables us to decide and to do the things that please Him (2:13).  Even Christ, who completed the work of our redemption, continues to perform other work on our behalf, to perfect our sanctification (Heb.7:25).


To be certain, the "real life we live" bears scrutiny, but its basis is not introspection.  Rather, our practical living must be founded upon Christ, through our exercise of faith in God-- in who He is, what He has done, and what He continues to do.  The only possible resource for such faith is the Word of God.  Although it is often misused to imply a works-based religion, Jas.2:14-26 makes plain that only works that are produced from faith can please God (cf Jn.15:4-5; Gal.5:22-23).

The scrutiny we must bear is twofold: 
First we must be responsive to the Holy Spirit's guidance.  That is, we must seek God's counsel for our lives (Mt.7:7-8; 1Jn.5:14-15) and believe that He will provide it through the scriptures being taught us by His Spirit (Ps.119:11; Rom.8:14; Jn.17:17).  By these means we may look at ourselves objectively (2Cor.13:5).
Second, we are to live openly before others, seeking and respecting the counsel of godly men (Jas.5:16; 1Pet.5:5; 1Tim.5:17).


If the above seems a long answer to Tom's enquiry, it is because
(1) life in Christ is an ongoing process.  It is not something which we can expect to get "done," or "have accomplished," but should be continuously doing and accomplishing, and
(2) there is no simple formula for success in the Christian life, no matter how much we may wish there were.  Those who have suffered the experience of the assembly know how devastating it can be to subject oneself to a dictated pattern of conduct, as if we are all cookie-cutter clones, without individual personalities and needs.  Assembly veterans may have a particular aversion to this post, because many of the things I have said sound very much like things that were said in the assemblies.  If that is your case (whoever may read this), remember this: Satan quotes scripture (Mt.4:3-11), but his doing so in no way invalidates the Word of God (Isa.55:11).  The only invalidation in the equation is the devil himself and his abuses of God's Word (Gen.3:1,4-5; Jn.8:44).  The devil is not to be feared by the faithful (Jas.4:7).  God will reward him according to his deeds (Rev.20:10), but for us God has reserved unspeakable wonders and joy(1Cor.2:9; Eph.1:3...).

We ex-assembly folk need to ask our Lord to teach us how to rejoice in Him, for the sheer joy of knowing Him, and without our thinking we have to!

Blessings,
al

[Mark C.]

Hi Everyone!

  What is the good of having a thread called, "Wounded Pilgrims", and rehashing the Assembly past?  I've been out of the group for 15 years now and don't you think it's about time for me to "move on" and to "get on with my life?"

   We all know by now (or if we don't, we really have a big problem) that the Assembly taught a false holiness message of an earned relationship with God, instead of a relationship with God that is gift based.

  We also know, that the group was cult like in how it controlled our lives, and that our sincere desire to serve God was manipulated to serve the power hungry needs of the leaders.

  It is not just knowing the above facts about what the Assembly was/is, or learning the correct spiritual truths that can make for a healthy recovery.

 These facts are a foundational step, but they don't address the present conditon of our soul as a result of decades of embracing the Assembly as "God's true church."

 This condition is the result not just of attending the Assembly, but in a full acceptance of GG as God's servant, with God's vision, and that God's government was expressed there.

   For those who just "attended", or who (for whatever reason) never fully bought into what GG taught, it may be hard for them to understand the need to "get over" anything at all.  It was the "true believer" who silenced every voice within and without to follow GG that will be the most deeply wounded.

   Wounded in what way?  Unable to function in life?  Unable to continue on in some kind of church experience, family life, etc.?
   Not necessarily, but to have any kind of joy or sense of purpose as a Christian?------that may be another story altogether.

   Why is that?  How many of us are like this?   Talking about this can be very helpful because much of this remains buried deep in our souls and there is a disconnect in our lives that can leave us hurting and confused.

   This disconnect can be hidden, but if we don't have any sense of passion or purpose in our lives as Christians there is a reason why we feel this way.

    "Now the God of Hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing-".  Notice that the fact of who God is, the God of Hope, should have an effect on our emotional life.  I'm not talking magic here, just that what we believe should make it's way to the place in us that brings inner satisfaction and calm.  If we do not have "joy and peace", then there is something blocking these out.

   Please, I'm not talking about the shallowest of emotional experience (mood), but of not being able to find comfort or purpose in my soul, even though I read that God has great hope for my future!

    Again, former members struggling with this may still believe that God is "the God of Hope" for the whole World, but they just don't believe it for themselves---- at least, they are confused as to how that might now apply to them.  "What if I get all enthused again about following God and only find out I'm wrong again," this may be the doubt of some.

   "Get over it?"  "how? I don't know what to trust, or which path to take; so maybe I'll just try my best to muddle through life and things will get better."

    These things will not get better by ignoring them, but though you feel stuck there is a way to a hopeful life in Christ.  God has a special interest in you!  "Why do you keep saying this Mark?"  I will answer that question in the next post.

                                                      God Bless,  Mark C.

                                       

 

[tenderhearted]

JULY 31ST:

HI MARK: HAPPY LORD'S DAY TO YOU.

I Have been under a little more stress lately than I want to be in, so when I read you latest posting, it kind of hard to work to filter through the stressfulness.

I still have been thinking on wounded pilgrim title: Whether we have had connections, or still having connection, been disconnected from the assembly recently, or have had no connections with the assembly for quite a few years.

Wounded Pilgrims can be anyone , any Christian who is suffering from anything ,whether it is an illness, money problems, loneliness, betrayal, grief, empty nesting, or a dry spell in their walk with Christ.

Even Paul was a wounded pilgrim, he had a sickness or thorn. He was in prison which I gather the conditions were from far humane. He knew he was facing death. He cried out for company, and for a coat.
Yet even in this suffering he didnt abandon his Christian walk, he grew in it. But he still commented on his condition. Not to get sympathy, but to get support.

Look at all the prayers of David, Jeremiah, and the other prophets. They commented on their condition, they asked questions, yet still gave God is place that God deserves in their lives.

In the scriptures, we have been admonished to share with each others burdens and to carry each other burdens. It didnt give specific burdens, which ones that are the cause of conveniences or comfort. It just said share burdens with each others.

There was a statement I read in on of the postings of recent, "fake Christians"

We are not to judge who is a Christian who is not a Christian.  We may question, but we are to take those questions to God, and ask God to guide us to the truth of the conditions of spirit of a believer. Every Christian is at different stage along the road to eternity. Christians may falter, Christians may stumble, Christians may even backslide, Christians can take their eyes off Jesus and take a wrong turn, Christians may be on fire for God, Christians are running the race, Christians are stuggling in the wilderness, Christians are being tempted and failing, and from where we are sitting it maybe that we dont see the productivity of those Christians, GOD KNOWS THE CONDITIONS OF EACH AND EVERY HEART OF EACH AND EVERY CHRISTIAN.

I myself tend to be more open when I need extra prayer, many of you know why. But in my neediness I am asking fellow Christians to up hold me in their prayers and to put my in Jesus hands, to maybe one day I cannot put one foot against the other, but through those prayers, I have received from God , the power of the Holy Spirit to lean on to make it through another day. In those prayers, even though you can't see the working of it, a blessings to someone else, to the person you are praying for , and to yourself. The reward of God has already been put aside.

I am just thinking out loud on this subject.

Our new small cells bible study is going through 1 John on Monday Nights at 7 pm.
Would someone else like to go through it via this site, and we can discuss what we are learning.

Questions:
What does the text establish about truth/light and falsehood/darkness? About sin/purity and moral absolutes? About the Spirit? About who Jesus is?
2. What are some of the truths that stand out to you
3. What does this mean to you and your relationship with God and with others?
4. Write down a heart to heart prayer  responding to God concerning any points that he spoke to you through His Word.

Thanks for listening.
Lenore

[Mark C.]

Thank you Lenore!

  Yes, it is absolutely true that there are all kinds of places for Christians to get hurt other than the Assembly, but this BB was set-up for the purpose of reaching out to, and helping those from the Assembly.

   We will find those with similar problems from all different kinds of environments, because we all share the same fallen natures and history seems to repeat itself in a religious context just as it does in politics.   There will always be dysfunctional church cultures around and they will still produce the same kind of damage.

  However, I promised to share why I think that God has a special interest in those who have been hurt by bad religion, and by doing so hope to bring some encouragement to those with lost purpose and passion for Christ in their lives.

   In Mark 3:1-6, there is a the story where Jesus heals a man with a shriveled hand right inside a synagogue.   Jesus showed very strong emotion in reaction to those who were seeking an opportunity to "accuse" Jesus of healing on the Sabbath.

    Jesus' reaction: "He looked around at them in anger and deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, etc."

    Ask yourself, "why was Jesus so upset with these particular individuals in the synagogue?  Yes, it tells us that they had stubborn hearts, but what were the particulars of this stubborness?

  I believe that Jesus was enraged at their distorted view that elevated the Jewish religious system above an individuals needy condition--- the man with the withered hand.

   Jesus, contrary to the hard hearted religionist, had a soft heart toward those in need and responded eagerly to those who sincerely sought him by faith.   

   God saw our sincere faith and desire to follow him, even though we made a serious mistake to fall in with those who were more interested in preserving their place and maintaing their control over us (the synagogue can provide an analogy for Assembly culture).

    We were like the one with the withered hand in the middle of those who, falsely in the name of God , opposed our well being.

   Jesus is very angry and deeply distressed with those that rob spiritual life, not just because he's against the hard hearted, but because he is for the sincere believer. 

   Very angry, and deep distress (these are very strong emotional phrases in the Greek) and they are strong passions that come from God's great desire to bless sincere individuals who trust in him.  God did not ignore, as you sat in the meetings, your sincere cries to know and follow him!  Even though in the later years you may have only been a burned out and withered soul, God passionately yearned for your healing!!!!!

  I have an excercise that I would like to recommend for those who are feeling very empty now that they are outside of the Assembly, yet know they cannot return to such a community again.  This "excercise" is not difficult, and will return a great feeling of hope in God's personal love and deep care for you.

   Read the Gospels, and try to put yourself in the place of the needy soul who comes to Jesus and finds forgiveness, healing, deliverance, etc.  He has not changed, in that he is driven by a great personal interest in you as an individual.

   "But, I'm already saved and have come to Jesus," you may say.  Do you realize that the same love that sent the Son to die on the cross for you was not just a one day thing, the day you got saved, but is to grow more and more until that perfect day?!

   As an example of the above excercise:  The Prodigal son and his returning; how did the Father treat this needy son?  Put yourself in that story and see how God actually thinks of you! 

   One caution: make your self the "recovered" one in the story, not the elder son, the hard hearted master of the foreign country, and certainly not the swine eating the husks  .  If you have just a flicker of desire, and a small mustard seed of faith, you are the one to whom God is seeking through that Gospel story.

  If you are the defender of the evil system, as were the religious Jews in the Mark passage above, you will probably just scoff at any such notion that the Assembly was hard hearted and inhumane toward anyone. 

 If you have any feeling left, please consider that you may be in a very bad place with God.  But, if you are one who still has a sensitive conscience you are not in that cateogry, and though you were deceived, you are not in that kind of hardened condition.

      "The God of Hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing that you may abound in hope through the power of the Holy Spirit."

                              God wants to bless you,  Mark C.

[Mark C.]

Hi Everyone!

  I made the point in the last posting that Jesus has a special interest in those who have been hurt in dysfunctional religious cultures.

   I used the example of the "man with the withered hand" because the context of the story was played out in a religious meeting (the synagogue).

   This "wounded man" sought God in a group of professed believers, of whom were those who hated Jesus and were trying to find something to pin on him.

 Why?  They were in love with their positions in the group and used a legalistic system that valued control of others vs. setting people free.  As I already mentioned, Jesus was very angry with these because of their hard hearted attitude.

  What does it mean to be "hard hearted?"

   Does it mean that they were stubborn re. their theology?  Isn't it a good thing to have strong convictions in orthodox bible based beliefs?

   Of course, we know that the Pharisees orthodoxy was a mix of truth and error, but it was their practices (despite all their claims to theological purity), held in self centered motives non-loving hearts, that made their religion evil.

 When Jesus came to the Samaritan woman in JN. 4 her theology was nothing short of heretical, and Jesus told her so, but it was her thirsting heart that Jesus addressed with her, vs. a class in theology.

  Now, he did make some profound theological statements in that passage, but his appeal was to her own dissatisfied experience with life, and the hope of immense and eternal satisfaction that could be had for the asking!

  My point is we need both a studied understanding of grace along with an experience of that grace in one's behavior, attitudes, relationships, and emotions.

   This fact was often demonstrated in the Gospels and shows that "what we believe" must be held in our "hearts" in such a way that it looks to "build-up/give life/bring healing" vs. a pursuit to defend my religious system.

  Hardness of heart, in the bible, is sometimes talked about as a inability to "feel", in a moral sense yes, but also in a human sense.

  An example of this is in 1 JN. 3:17--- "If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?

  The only point I wish to make from the above verse is that God's love in us should produce an inner quality called "pity", or the ability to "feel" sympathy for someone who is suffering, and move us to take action.

   False religion hardens the heart against sensitivity to real human suffering; preferring a kind of cold and hard orthodoxy of belief that sees such sensitivity as "unspiritual."

  Now, I am very aware of the danger of humanism where alleviating suffering becomes the "gospel" vs. a faith in Jesus' work on the cross, but there is just as great a danger of having a "correct theology" and still being as hard as nails.

   We can argue that Jesus was very hard at times, as with those in the synagogue above, but he also had times of great tenderness toward those regular ol' sinners who felt their great need, and just a little faith.

  Our former sojourn in the Assembly had an inescapable effect on the inner quality I described above.  We will react, depending on our particular experiences, in one or two ways (or somewhere in between along that continum):

  1.) The first extreme is to go hard hearted all the way.

    This is expressed in "becoming an atheist", "forgetting the past and denying what went on", or trying to escape via getting involved in a "new life" that doesn't include seeking God.

  2.) The other extreme is to become very, very sensitive, and to relate to everything on the basis of how I feel.

   This becomes a narccistic view that seeks to probe one's own motives, inner sentiments, etc. for answers to what it means to follow Christ and make some sense of your life post Assembly.

   This second person is so sensitive that they walk around with a black cloud over their heads night and day.  They are painfully aware of their character flaws and feel a great distance between themseles and God.  From this place we can "feel" our woundedness, and even realize how we were made victims of this, but we are not making progress as regards the "pilgrim" aspect of our past damaging experiences.

    Now, both of these are the result of living in an environment like the Assembly, and most find themselves somewhere in between these two extremes.   One of the advantages of thinking about where we have been is that it offers an opportunity to achieve a balance between those extremes.

                                                     God Bless,  Mark C.