WOUNDED PILGRIMS

[thomasson]

Hi Thomasson! 

   John Atwood??!!!  Now there is a guy I really liked, though I lived in Calif., and now I know why I liked him so much! 

    Do you know how to get in contact with him?  The last I heard he had been kicked out of the Workers Meeting for getting angry for not submitting to one of GG's "you're-on-the-hot-seat" sessions! 

 It seems early on John saw through a lot of Assembly nonsense for what it was----- just plain old fashioned abusive treatment.
 

No I don't know how to get in touch with John.  I called his number just now but there was no answer.  I saw him last year when Samuel Ochingala spoke in Forest Park.  All the people who had left received an invitation to come and here him speak.  He asked if I had found a church and I told him I was checking out a Pentecostal one.   He basically said some of the same things you said in this post in light of not judging the churches that I visit to harshly.  I will ask Gene when I go for my next dentist appointment how to get in touch with John and let you know.

[moonflower2]

All the people who had left received an invitation to come and here him speak. 

Now where did you get that  information? It's not correct.

[thomasson]

Now where did you get that  information? It's not correct.

Okay maybe not all.  But someone called me and told me that Samuel was coming and someone called John and a number of other people who no longer went to church in Forest Park.  It was not a formal invitation it was people calling and saying Samuel is coming would you like to hear him speak. 

[Mark C.]

HAPPY NEW YEAR ONE AND ALL!!!!

  Thomasson:  Thanks, but I now know how to contact John, and I also now know his hidden identity.  Knowing that he wishes to be annonymous on the BB I will wait to contact him until I get some kind of hint he wants to talk with me.

  My memories of John go way back to the early days of my involvement in the group and he impressed me as somebody who would not allow people to push him around, a particular strength that I lacked at that time.  Indeed, though I admired his chutzpah, the Assembly reinforced the opposite attitude of "laying down one's life" via denial of standing up against abusive actions.

  It would be very interesting to hear him share his own personal story here as I think it might be helpful to former members, especially as to what is damaged when we buy-into the GG notion of "holiness" that teaches a very false concept of "dying to self."

   We were taught to see "submission to church authority" in a very distorted and destructive manner that "turned" members into a kind of zombie like follower of GG and his lieutenants.  John resisted this (at least when I knew him) but I am not aware of how his experience progressed with the group in Chicago.

                     A FINAL OBSERVATION ON LARRY

   As I already said, Larry, who thought he had attained to a very high level of spirituality with the Assembly, needs to see that, to the contrary, he is very immature in the development of his spiritual character.

   Just because Larry knows a lot of Bible verses, has spent decades in an intense commitment to introspective disciplines (climbing heavenly ladders and the like), and many hours in meetings, this did not really help him to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.

  This cloistered environment actually kept him for the development of a strong faith in Christ because his ability to critically think and to courageously act were both attacked as negative character traits, vs being stressed as the esseential elements of true holiness that they are.

  Larry, in still trying to "make peace" with the former leaders of the group by sheepishly avoiding talking about the elephant that is in the room---which is the obvious evil these leaders participated in--- not only is not helping these former leaders, he continues to exhibit a fearful kind of carefullness that can only be described as cowardice!

   The key to spiritual development for Larry is not found in hours of contemplation of one's own motives and subsuquent prayers that God would anhiliate any "self centered thought"--- for this morbid meditation is a fruitful as Transcendental meditation--- rather by lifting his eyes up to look around him and boldly facing and standing for the truth.

                                                         God Bless,  Mark C.

[thomasson]

Thank you Mark for your post.  I think I am more Larry then I am willing to admit and your post helped me to see that.  I know I have a lot of growing to do.  One of the saints just called and invited me to hear Samuel speak this Thursday.  I really want to hear him speak.  Do you think I am being a Larry?

[Mark C.]

Hi Thomasson!

   Sorry it has taken so long to respond, but I usually am just a "weekend warrior" on the BB, as I'm travelling during the week.

   I'm glad that you found my post helpful.  I see a lot of "Larry" in myself as well, though I had another person in mind when I wrote about him too.

  As to going to hear Samuel:  Why do you want to go to hear him speak?  That is the question that you need to honestly answer yourself.

  If you are just interested in missions work in Africa and the spread of the gospel there, then your interest is a noble one.  If you are trying to re-capture that old time Assembly feeling then I think it could be an unhealthy experience for you.

  In an earlier post you mentioned "missing your Assembly friends", and while such affections are normal (especially if you spent many years with these folks), those former relationships were not founded in truth and love.

   I know that the above paragraph needs a lot of explanation, and that some may vigorously disagree with me re. it, but it is my opinion that just because people show us a lot of affection and call us bro./sis. this is not proof that "God is in the midst."

  As a very short study in cults can provide, the members are masters at manipulating those thinking about joining via what has been called "love bombing."  This is also used on those thinking about leaving, or wavering on what to do in regards to the group.  It is a shallow deceptive use of feigning great interest in an individual, when it is really designed to only build the group up and create another loyal member to the cause.  Leave the group and you are now "of the Devil. etc.".

  In short, don't choose your Christian associations based on their winning personalities; there are tests you can learn to use to determine if you are being manipulated or not.  One such test is how do these people treat you if you disagree with them, or when you attempt to entreat them re. problems you have noticed.

  If they withdraw from you as a result of your questions, or grow cold toward you, then you know that you are dealing with the phony cult kind of manipulation, but if they own up to the truth and are thankful for your input you have discovered someone who is walking with God.

   More to say on this, but some others may have comments as well.

                                                                  God Bless,  Mark C.

                                                             

[thomasson]

Thank you for answering my question and don't worry about taking long to answer.  Thank you for asking such provocative questions.  I never even thought to examine my motives as to why I want to hear Samuel.  I think Samuel is a godly man, though he may be suffering from the same system that affected us all.  I don't even mind him mimicking George in some ways.  I think if George had repented he would have become the man of God that he pretended to be all those years.  I think that because Samuel wasn't immoral he is a strong Christian man.  I also think that I am now able to discern between godliness and Geftakyism.   But of course, people in denial always think they are well.

[M2]

Thank you for answering my question and don't worry about taking long to answer.  Thank you for asking such provocative questions.  I never even thought to examine my motives as to why I want to hear Samuel.  I think Samuel is a godly man, though he may be suffering from the same system that affected us all.  I don't even mind him mimicking George in some ways.  I think if George had repented he would have become the man of God that he pretended to be all those years.  I think that because Samuel wasn't immoral he is a strong Christian man.  I also think that I am now able to discern between godliness and Geftakyism.   But of course, people in denial always think they are well.

thomasson et al,

I am reading an excellent book Be Free by Warren Wiersbe.  Wiersbe says, "Paul waged war against the false teachers because he loved the truth, and because he loved those whom he had led to Christ." (pgs. 18-19)

George's failure was not only his immoral behaviour, but also the false religious system that he and his faithful adherants set up and enforced.  IMO that would disqualify all adherants from "playing" church now.

I see John A in myself too, yet I remained a faithful adherant past the end too.  That is not commendable behaviour.

As to your reasons, thomasson, for maintaining contact with assembly folk, only you can make the right decision on that matter.

Regards,
Marcia

[thomasson]

Marcia:

Thank you.  I did go to hear Samuel speak last night.  And I guess that was the answer to my question.  I really expected to be refreshed and encouraged.  I was a little saddened to hear him say things like,"Don't lose sight of the heavenly vision even though people say things about you on the internet".  I think if he had not referred to this website I would not have been discouraged.  But seeing as the website has been a help to so many people I was very discouraged to hear him say that.  And I don't think he has ever even visited this site.   Maybe God did tell him to tell the saints to continue to meet.  And that He is doing something through their gathering.  I know that a lot of them have changed and renounced a lot of the things that came from George.  But I had hoped that Samuel would have been a little more open about this site. 

[outdeep]

Marcia:

Thank you.  I did go to hear Samuel speak last night.  And I guess that was the answer to my question.  I really expected to be refreshed and encouraged.  I was a little saddened to hear him say things like,"Don't lose sight of the heavenly vision even though people say things about you on the internet".  I think if he had not referred to this website I would not have been discouraged.  But seeing as the website has been a help to so many people I was very discouraged to hear him say that.  And I don't think he has ever even visited this site.   Maybe God did tell him to tell the saints to continue to meet.  And that He is doing something through their gathering.  I know that a lot of them have changed and renounced a lot of the things that came from George.  But I had hoped that Samuel would have been a little more open about this site. 

I remember back when I left the Assembly in 1990, several of us read books on characteristics of abusive churches.  One characteristic that I remember was that the group maintained a "warfare mentality".  In other words, the group would believe they are part of something uniquely special to God (not unlike Nehimiah rebuilding the wall) while the rest of the world (including the religious world) was out there trying to trip them up and interfere with the great and singular work of God.

Thus, the exhortations to maintain the vision and separate onself from wayward thinkers without.

A romantic and cavalier vision Samuel seeks to maintain, but not very accurate.

[Mark C.]

Marcia:

Thank you.  I did go to hear Samuel speak last night.  And I guess that was the answer to my question.  I really expected to be refreshed and encouraged.  I was a little saddened to hear him say things like,"Don't lose sight of the heavenly vision even though people say things about you on the internet".  I think if he had not referred to this website I would not have been discouraged.  But seeing as the website has been a help to so many people I was very discouraged to hear him say that.  And I don't think he has ever even visited this site.   Maybe God did tell him to tell the saints to continue to meet.  And that He is doing something through their gathering.  I know that a lot of them have changed and renounced a lot of the things that came from George.  But I had hoped that Samuel would have been a little more open about this site. 

  Hi Thomasson, Dave, Marcia, and Others following this discussion:

   I have to agree with the suspicions we all seem to have re. the defenders of "The Heavenly Vision."  There is little doubt in my mind that Samuel and "The Saints" in Chicago are sincere and well intentioned--- but does this mean they are "godly" and truly following God's leading in their lives?

  Those claiming to represent God abound in the World today, but on what basis can we discern who is off-base, vs. truly representative of God?

1.) Apparent sincerity and proclamations of fidelity to the teachings of the Bible by themselves are insufficient.
    One of the most effective means of deception is based in our emotional make-up where we judge the speaker/writer on how we feel about their level of sincerity, vs. on the facts that are included in their appeal.

    The facts re. the Assembly, and it's vision, tell us that the whole system was corrupt and that any attempts to purge Geftakysism from it's function--- and some how create a "pure expression of God's church" are not only impossible, they force the would-be reformers into a dishonest defense of their past.  Only by complete abandonment of the whole "Heavenly Vision" thing (laying the axe to the root of this version of Phariseeism) is there a chance to truly recover to a place where there can be true renewal of mind.

   Endless quotations from the Bible by themselves are not sufficient, because they are not honestly applied to the true history of the Assembly and it's members true state before God.  That these folks truly believe in what they are doing does not mean they are not still thinking in a dishonest manner that is opposed to God.

2.)What is true godliness?

    I think of the illustration that Jesus provided with the parable of the two who prayed in the temple: The Pharisee loudly proclaiming his spiritual superiority vs. the other deeply convicted of his own unworthiness.

   Is the above illustration only a text for evangelizing the un-saved, or can it be applied to our lives as believers?   Seems to me that "godliness" is represented by those willing to be honest---- facing up to their failures---- vs. seeking to justify themselves as defenders of the Assembly system.  This clearly applies, not just at our first reception of Christ, but as we continue in the living of life before God.

   Please understand that this is not an attack against how Samuel, and other Heavenly Vision adherents may decide to gather, rather the evil system that refuses honest entreaty.  Samuel clearly is defending this same kind of head-in-the-sand approach that allows for a lack of critical thinking in our following of God that we were instructed in by GG and that which all cults use to advance their very wrong goals.

    These folks can go ahead and try to convince others that they have found a superior way to follow God (above and beyond that which can be found in other evangelical churches) but to refuse to allow fellow believers to dialogue with them re. this on the basis that "we are the true followers of God and you are of the worldly churches" smacks of the above illustration that Jesus made that I reference above: "I thank thee Lord that I am not like other men, etc."

     Along with this, of course follows, that those interested in talking with them about their higher claims of fidelity to God's purpose need to be classified as "the Enemy" and not to be listened to!   This is cultic stuff and to be rejected as Thomasson has rightly judged and Chicago should be ashamed of their continuance of this old Assembly way of thinking!

                                                                           God Bless,  Mark C.

[mithrandir]

Thank you.  I did go to hear Samuel speak last night.  And I guess that was the answer to my question.  I really expected to be refreshed and encouraged.  I was a little saddened to hear him say things like,"Don't lose sight of the heavenly vision even though people say things about you on the internet".  I think if he had not referred to this website I would not have been discouraged.  But seeing as the website has been a help to so many people I was very discouraged to hear him say that.  And I don't think he has ever even visited this site.   Maybe God did tell him to tell the saints to continue to meet.  And that He is doing something through their gathering.  I know that a lot of them have changed and renounced a lot of the things that came from George.  But I had hoped that Samuel would have been a little more open about this site. 

I think many of us would like to think that Samuel is a sincere and genuine man who truly is seeking to serve the Lord.  But the facts surrounding the last few years speak for themselves, namely:
1. To the best of my knowledge, Samuel has not yet told anyone in Nigeria about George's exposure.  He has said that he is keeping silent in the hopes that George will repent.
2. Samuel is continuing to exhort the U.S. assemblies to meet together, and to "maintain the Heavenly vision."  This means the same exclusiveness, cultic behavior, dysfunctional relationships and unhealthy command and micromanagement of "the saints" by "the shepherds."
3. What was produced in Nigeria by the "ministry" of George and Samuel is the same sort of authoritarian, controlling unhealthy church structure as George himself produced in the U.S. when he "raised up" the assemblies.  The only difference is that in Nigeria, Samuel is the local pope and George is the supreme pope in absentia.

Please note: the following is just my crusty opinion, so do what you will with it.  Now Samuel may say that he is simply keeping silent about George so that George may have opportunity to repent, but I think Samuel still needs George as a means of legitimizing Samuel's "ministry."  If George were exposed as the man he truly is, and the Nigerian brethren began to see clearly what kind of system they bought into, it would take Samuel down several notches.  There would be no more legitimization of Samuel's authority nor of his visits to the U.S.  He would have to support himself and his family by the sweat of his brow, just like everyone else.  The property that has been amassed for "the work" in Nigeria would have to be divided up.  In short, it would make serious wreckage of the world Samuel has made for himself.  So I strongly question his motives in coming and visiting the "gatherings of the saints" here in the good old, prestigious U.S.A.  It is interesting to note what he said and how he conducted himself when he came in 2003: http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/AssemblyTeachingPractice/SamuelInFullerton.htm

But this leads to a further discussion of relationships between ex-assemblyites and those still on the inside.  Here in the U.S.A. where most people know what kind of people George and his henchmen were, we have many who have left the assemblies, yet who still feel the ties of friendship and affection with some of those on the inside.  In my opinion, this may be a dangerous state to be in, because those on the inside have been trained to use any leverage they possess to get those on the outside to come back to the fold.  This has been my experience.  When I saw how some of those still meeting in Fullerton and Placentia behaved toward me when I left - the "We miss you so much, why don't you drop by?" and "We'd like to invite you to a little get together" and so on - I saw the true character of our so-called friendships.  What counselors say to drug addicts, I say to them: Get honest or die! So if any outsider is still being wooed by those on the inside, perhaps he or she should say, "Listen, everyone.  I am taking my life in a new direction.  I don't know all the details, but I do know that it absolutely does not involve the Assembly.  If you still want to maintain a friendship with me, come join me in my new pursuits."  Then you'll know who your true friends are.

Clarence Thompson

[Oscar]

Cllarence,

You said:

I think many of us would like to think that Samuel is a sincere and genuine man who truly is seeking to serve the Lord.  But the facts surrounding the last few years speak for themselves, namely:
1. To the best of my knowledge, Samuel has not yet told anyone in Nigeria about George's exposure.  He has said that he is keeping silent in the hopes that George will repent.
2. Samuel is continuing to exhort the U.S. assemblies to meet together, and to "maintain the Heavenly vision."  This means the same exclusiveness, cultic behavior, dysfunctional relationships and unhealthy command and micromanagement of "the saints" by "the shepherds."
3. What was produced in Nigeria by the "ministry" of George and Samuel is the same sort of authoritarian, controlling unhealthy church structure as George himself produced in the U.S. when he "raised up" the assemblies.  The only difference is that in Nigeria, Samuel is the local pope and George is the supreme pope in absentia.

When I signed on this morning, eight "guests" were reading on the board.  The BB has had nearly 12,000 clicks in 7 days.  I cannot imagine that in this internet age that the brethren in Nigeria do not know what has happened.  The same goes for US assemblies that never read the excommunication letter.

I remember someone quoting an ex-leading brother, Hayman I think, shortly after the original website went up.  He had made a comment to another LB about what he was reading on the site.  He was a faithful follower of GG....but human nature is human nature.

I think we can be quite sure that the Nigerian brethren know about GG.  But remember, when they read their Bibles using the interpretive system that they have been taught, they see the "heavenly vision".   Also remember that Brethrenism, which is what GG taught us/them, was around long before GG, and will undoubtedly be around long after him as well.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

[Uncle Buck]

I think many of us would like to think that Samuel is a sincere and genuine man who truly is seeking to serve the Lord.  But the facts surrounding the last few years speak for themselves, namely:
1. To the best of my knowledge, Samuel has not yet told anyone in Nigeria about George's exposure.  He has said that he is keeping silent in the hopes that George will repent.
2. Samuel is continuing to exhort the U.S. assemblies to meet together, and to "maintain the Heavenly vision."  This means the same exclusiveness, cultic behavior, dysfunctional relationships and unhealthy command and micromanagement of "the saints" by "the shepherds."
3. What was produced in Nigeria by the "ministry" of George and Samuel is the same sort of authoritarian, controlling unhealthy church structure as George himself produced in the U.S. when he "raised up" the assemblies.  The only difference is that in Nigeria, Samuel is the local pope and George is the supreme pope in absentia.

Please note: the following is just my crusty opinion, so do what you will with it.  Now Samuel may say that he is simply keeping silent about George so that George may have opportunity to repent, but I think Samuel still needs George as a means of legitimizing Samuel's "ministry."  If George were exposed as the man he truly is, and the Nigerian brethren began to see clearly what kind of system they bought into, it would take Samuel down several notches.  There would be no more legitimization of Samuel's authority nor of his visits to the U.S.  He would have to support himself and his family by the sweat of his brow, just like everyone else.  The property that has been amassed for "the work" in Nigeria would have to be divided up.  In short, it would make serious wreckage of the world Samuel has made for himself.  So I strongly question his motives in coming and visiting the "gatherings of the saints" here in the good old, prestigious U.S.A.  It is interesting to note what he said and how he conducted himself when he came in 2003: http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/AssemblyTeachingPractice/SamuelInFullerton.htm

But this leads to a further discussion of relationships between ex-assemblyites and those still on the inside.  Here in the U.S.A. where most people know what kind of people George and his henchmen were, we have many who have left the assemblies, yet who still feel the ties of friendship and affection with some of those on the inside.  In my opinion, this may be a dangerous state to be in, because those on the inside have been trained to use any leverage they possess to get those on the outside to come back to the fold.  This has been my experience.  When I saw how some of those still meeting in Fullerton and Placentia behaved toward me when I left - the "We miss you so much, why don't you drop by?" and "We'd like to invite you to a little get together" and so on - I saw the true character of our so-called friendships.  What counselors say to drug addicts, I say to them: Get honest or die! So if any outsider is still being wooed by those on the inside, perhaps he or she should say, "Listen, everyone.  I am taking my life in a new direction.  I don't know all the details, but I do know that it absolutely does not involve the Assembly.  If you still want to maintain a friendship with me, come join me in my new pursuits."  Then you'll know who your true friends are.

Clarence Thompson

If Samuel has not imformed those in Nigeria of the double life George was living while 'discipling' Samuel...shame on Samuel. Those people have a right to know the truth and then make a decision what they as individuals want to do. If they want to stay involved and pray for George, great... if they want to go elsewhere, great. It is their decision to make, not Samuels.

[bystander]

If Samuel has not imformed those in Nigeria of the double life George was living while 'discipling' Samuel...shame on Samuel. Those people have a right to know the truth and then make a decision what they as individuals want to do. If they want to stay involved and pray for George, great... if they want to go elsewhere, great. It is their decision to make, not Samuels.

It is just this kinds of clear, obvious thinking that seems to be in short supply among groups like the Assembly.

It matters not what Samuel's personal opinion is regarding the veractiy of the claims made against George Geftakys and his Assembly.  The fact of the matter is a major upheaval/overthrow has occured.  In such events, it is only natural for people to take sides.

Those who pretend nothing happened, or want others to remain ignorant of events play their hand in such a way that no other conclusion can be drawn other than the fact that they are dishonest and deceptive.  A true believer tackles the problem head on:  "They are all lying and persecuting George!"

A true "unbeliever" in like manner: "George is Satan incarnate."

A person with something to hide says nothing, tells nothing, and hopes no one else notices....

bystander