WOUNDED PILGRIMS

[M2]

It is just this kinds of clear, obvious thinking that seems to be in short supply among groups like the Assembly.

It matters not what Samuel's personal opinion is regarding the veractiy of the claims made against George Geftakys and his Assembly.  The fact of the matter is a major upheaval/overthrow has occured.  In such events, it is only natural for people to take sides.

Those who pretend nothing happened, or want others to remain ignorant of events play their hand in such a way that no other conclusion can be drawn other than the fact that they are dishonest and deceptive.  A true believer tackles the problem head on:  "They are all lying and persecuting George!"

A true "unbeliever" in like manner: "George is Satan incarnate."

A person with something to hide says nothing, tells nothing, and hopes no one else notices....

bystander

Doing the math is definitely not a strong point with assembly folk.

I believe that there is some (a lot of) pride involved too.

Marcia

[bystander]

Doing the math is definitely not a strong point with assembly folk.

I believe that there is some (a lot of) pride involved too.

Marcia

Ditto the pride, Marcia.  Pride and blindness are close relatives.

New subject,  What am I doing on this board at this time of night? 
Answer: I have no idea, but I hope to put a stop to it immediately!

Heavenly vision=peculiar style of doing "church," belief that the church should---and is required to---teach angels the manifold wisdom of God,  Church meetings are necessary in order to bring many sons to glory, almost every other church has worldly vision. (Heavenly "vision" is myopic in the extreme)

The facts about the Assembly=founded by a pervert.  Administered by sychophants.  Gross violation of scriptural guidelines in the areas of finances, morality, leadership, marriage, among other things.  Fell down like a house of cards as soon as the leader (I don't mean Christ) was exposed.  (actually, he was exposed prior to the sexual exploits becoming public, but most members couldn't see or hear....due to myopic Heavenly vision.)

In light of that, a man Nigeria, who was funded by George's organization is urging people,  "don't forsake "The" Heavenly Vision!  I'll bet anyone that Samuel received money on his recent trip.  Probably a great sum, for a Nigerian.

Last observation:

Don't forsake Christ, people.  By all means, jetison the Heavenly Vision as soon as possible, but keep Jesus Christ in the pre-eminent place.  We learn about Jesus through reliable scriptures and honorable men.  We learn about the "heavenly" vision via a narcistic, perverted, evil man, who has been thouroughly disqualified.   

If there is someone still following the Heavenly vision, who has retained a shred of common sense, I hope they ask themselves a few simple question about what I said above.

bystander

[Uh Oh]

Why on God's green earth would anyone want to listen to what Samuel or for that matter Mike Zach, would have to say at this point.

Are the people in Chicago on acid?

Unreal!!!

[Margaret]

Chances are the Assembly in Chicago has been in touch with Samuel and Mike Zach all along, and continue to hold them both in the same high regard they alway have. That's probably the case with all the continuing Assemblies. (It's GG who was the problem, after all, nothing else.)

Brian's Art Quote of the Day for today is interesting: "The aim of art is to represent not the outward appearance of things, but their inward significance."  Maybe we need some artists to reveal the inward significance of it all. Speaking of which, has anyone seen "King Kong"?  Did the self-deluded con-man character of the movie director, Carl Denham, remind anyone else of GG?

[Oscar]

Margaret,

I must confess I didn't pay to view the latest King Kong.   I saw the 1930's verson on TV once, and a movie about a giant primate who has the hots for a human woman who is about as tall as his ankle just does not call to me.   

Did the USAF succeed in shooting him off the Empire State building again?

I did see The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe though.   First class IMHO.

Generally, when cults dissolve due to the fall of the Great Leader, or when the replacement leaders wake up to reality, there is a "faithful remnant" that holds to the original vision.  Two come to mind...the World Wide Church of the God and the Elijah Mohammed version of the Black Muslims.  In the one case there still exists tiny faction faithful to Herbert W. Armstrong.  In the other the new incarnation that we know as the Nation of Islam has grown under its new leader, Minister Farrakhan.  The group that followed Elijah Mohammed's son into Sunni Islam seems to have just sort of blended in and lost its identity, at least as far as the news is concerned.

So, as sad and wierd as it is, we should not be surprised that El Magnifico still has a few who see his deluded "vision".   

Blessngs,

Thomas Maddux
Undercomer

[M2]

Why on God's green earth would anyone want to listen to what Samuel or for that matter Mike Zach, would have to say at this point.

Are the people in Chicago on acid?

Unreal!!!

Chances are the Assembly in Chicago has been in touch with Samuel and Mike Zach all along, and continue to hold them both in the same high regard they alway have. That's probably the case with all the continuing Assemblies. (It's GG who was the problem, after all, nothing else.)

Brian's Art Quote of the Day for today is interesting: "The aim of art is to represent not the outward appearance of things, but their inward significance."  Maybe we need some artists to reveal the inward significance of it all. Speaking of which, has anyone seen "King Kong"?  Did the self-deluded con-man character of the movie director, Carl Denham, remind anyone else of GG?

Mike Zach is Roger Grant's oldest daughter's father-in-law, so there is even more reason for him to visit the Chicago assembly to preach and entertain.

Roger Grant has almost always accompanied George to Nigeria, and has been the main US contact with Samuel.

Marcia

[thomasson]

Wow Marcia:

Aren't you being a little hard on the Chicago saints?  Doesn't every church have believers in it that have problems?  Why do we have to be on acid to want to hear Samuel or Mike Zach speak?  Not that I would do it again but I must admit I am still somewhat addicted to the old days when people were afraid to be so open about what they thought about the saints. 

[M2]

Wow Marcia:

Aren't you being a little hard on the Chicago saints?  Doesn't every church have believers in it that have problems?  Why do we have to be on acid to want to hear Samuel or Mike Zach speak?  Not that I would do it again but I must admit I am still somewhat addicted to the old days when people were afraid to be so open about what they thought about the saints. 

If you re-read the posts, you might notice that it was not me that suggested that anyone was on acid.

But with that kind of reaction, maybe there is something to it eh??

"Being a little hard on the saints..."  is the same ole accusation from any assembly member.  I've been accused of that in another setting.  Looks like the assemblies are following the same path together.  So much for being autonomous.  Maybe they are recieving the same indoctrination from a new (old) source.

Let me guess, is everyone feeling sorry for the poor leaders.  And is everyone proclaiming how everone has really changed.

I do believe that there is something to the art quote, "The aim of art is to represent not the outward appearance of things, but their inward significance."  My version, "The aim is to change the outward appearance of things, but without concern for their inward significance."

On edit:
"I must admit I am still somewhat addicted to the old days when people were afraid to be so open about what they thought about the saints"  Unless, of course, what one has to say is encouraging and uplifting and upbeat and scratches that itch ....

Marcia

P.S.  My guess is that Mike Z preached about David & Goliath, or about Daniel and his 3 friends (Dan 1) , or if it was Sunday before worship he preached about the 10 lepers and the 1 returned to thank the Lord.

MM

[Margaret]

There is a difference between Mike Zach and people who have problems in a church. Mike was an elder and a full-time paid worker. His treatment of one of the sheep in his care is documented in "Our Story" by Bill and Joyce H. http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/PersonalAccounts/BillJoyceH.htm

His dealing with other people in the Omaha Assembly is recounted in "Gretchen W.'s Story" http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/PersonalAccounts/GretchenW.htm

He and Cheryl were delegated to stay with David and Judy Geftakys to help them resolve their problems, and they saw David's abuse firsthand. They promised Judy they would advocate for her, but failed to follow through, leaving her and the children in what they knew to be a dangerous situation. http://www.geftakysassembly.com/JudyWritesToVerne.html.

This is a bigger problem than just an individual in a church who has problems.

Mike Zach was not behaving at the time any differently than many of the other leading brothers would have under George's domination. But since then, when he is no longer under George, he has not openly acknowledged that his behavior was wrong or apologized meaningfully to the many individuals he wronged. Mike should not be recognized as a leader of God's people until he has made these things right.

[Joe Sperling]

Thomasson----

I went to Sunday worship and Bible studies for appx. 5 years in the Assembly. I only
attended one meeting while on acid. It was the only time George made sense to me.
Try dropping some acid and listening to one of the old tape studies. It's truly an amazing
experience.

--Joe

[Uh Oh]

Mike Zach was not behaving at the time any differently than many of the other leading brothers would have under George's domination. But since then, when he is no longer under George, he has not openly acknowledged that his behavior was wrong or apologized meaningfully to the many individuals he wronged. Mike should not be recognized as a leader of God's people until he has made these things right.

Mike Zach shouldn't be reconginzed by a leader - period. A big part of being a leader is doing the right thing, no matter how tough it may be.  Turning a blind eye to some serious abuse, manipulation, and blatant fraud should show everyone that Mike Zach and leader have no business even being in the same sentence. 

Even if MZ were to apologize up and down, and do it sincerely, does it...

- Undo all the years of George's training that Mike obviously bought into?
- Does it magically (no pun intended) make a very below average speaker (and thats on a good day) turn into someone who has the ability to keep the attention of those who are somewhat sane?
- Make right all of the times that MZ shared extremely sensitive and confident information in order to put himself on a pedastal and gain the trust of others.  You have to be willing to trust a leader - can anyone real trust this guy?  Give me a break.

I would argue that those who were/are still  in assembly leadership positions are the ones who need the most counseling, are the ones who need the most to be reprogrammed, and the ones who if they are serious about leading any sort of a Christian life are the ones who should be doing the listening, and certainly not the talking.

On the other hand, I've seen the guy around Omaha from time to time and the sight of him makes me physically ill.  So I guess if Chicago wants to listen to him that bad, maybe he could do us all a favor and pack up and move there.

I guess at the end of the day, a lot of people will have accomplished a lot of things, and all people like him and TG will accomplished is career cult leader.

[thomasson]

Thomasson----

I went to Sunday worship and Bible studies for appx. 5 years in the Assembly. I only
attended one meeting while on acid. It was the only time George made sense to me.
Try dropping some acid and listening to one of the old tape studies. It's truly an amazing
experience.

--Joe

Okay.  Thank you Joe.  I think I will try attending one meeting while on acid maybe this time I will feel that the ministry is really speaking to me.

[outdeep]

Wow Marcia:

Aren't you being a little hard on the Chicago saints?  Doesn't every church have believers in it that have problems?  Why do we have to be on acid to want to hear Samuel or Mike Zach speak?  Not that I would do it again but I must admit I am still somewhat addicted to the old days when people were afraid to be so open about what they thought about the saints. 

The issues with Mike Zach aside, I do find one thing refreshingly different among some of the Assemblies that continue to meet but rejected George:

Though they may still be trying to maintain the "heavenly vision" (which I think referred to Paul's vision, not how conduct the worship service) and maintain many of the same teachings and practices, in some of the gatherings there has been a far greater openness to allowing folks to join or leave as they please.  Several I talked to in the Fullerton area felt free to stay in the Assembly or go to another church.  One long-time Assembly person left to go to another church because he felt there was nothing happening for his teens - a reason that would have been cause for shunning five years ago.

The one thing, in my mind, that moved the Assembly from being just a church with some wonky thinking to cult-like behavior was the pressure to stay (if you leave, you leave the light and will be rejecting God's best and won't enter into all God has for you) and the exclusivity towards others (they are just walking in the light that they have, but we need to walk in the light that we have).  When George fell, this wall also fell to a large degree.  

If the cage door is open and folks want to stay in the cage, I'm not going to get upset.  If it works out, I may drop in for a visit on a rare occasion.

[Margaret]

I think your characterization of GG's Heavenly Vision is inaccurate, Dave.  See the first two pages or so of Brent's article, "George's Heavenly Vision" http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/AssemblyTeachingPractice/HeavenlyVision.htm. The Heavenly Vision is the lampstand of pure gold, etc. In view of that, although current Assemblies may not shun people who leave any more, they do seem to still preach, as Samuel did, "Don't lose your grip on the Heavenly Vision and settle for less." That still puts a burden on people who leave--can they find a church that measures up enough in their minds to assure them they're not settling for less than God's best. Admittedly, this is a more subtle pressure than shunning and preaching against them, and gives people a little wiggle room, but it still promotes the elitism.

Several other aberrant signs are control--"Don't read the internet," "Sisters mustn't have short hair," "Submit to the leadership." Performance--"Don't lose your fervency to be an Overcomer--come to the prayer meeting, the outreach, etc." Fear--"You don't want to miss out on the Kingdom, and end up outside looking in."

[Oscar]

I think your characterization of GG's Heavenly Vision is inaccurate, Dave.  See the first two pages or so of Brent's article, "George's Heavenly Vision" http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/AssemblyTeachingPractice/HeavenlyVision.htm. The Heavenly Vision is the lampstand of pure gold, etc. In view of that, although current Assemblies may not shun people who leave any more, they do seem to still preach, as Samuel did, "Don't lose your grip on the Heavenly Vision and settle for less." That still puts a burden on people who leave--can they find a church that measures up enough in their minds to assure them they're not settling for less than God's best. Admittedly, this is a more subtle pressure than shunning and preaching against them, and gives people a little wiggle room, but it still promotes the elitism.

Several other aberrant signs are control--"Don't read the internet," "Sisters mustn't have short hair," "Submit to the leadership." Performance--"Don't lose your fervency to be an Overcomer--come to the prayer meeting, the outreach, etc." Fear--"You don't want to miss out on the Kingdom, and end up outside looking in."

Margaret,

Dave said:

Though they may still be trying to maintain the "heavenly vision" (which I think referred to Paul's vision, not how conduct the worship service) and maintain many of the same teachings and practices, in some of the gatherings there has been a far greater openness to allowing folks to join or leave as they please.

I don't think that Dave was describing GG's "heavenly vision" with the words, "which I think referred to Paul's vision".  I think he was referring to the oft quoted phrase, "I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision."  Paul was speaking of the appearance of Christ and the commission he had received from the Lord.  Dave was IMHO pointing out the true meaning of the term in contrast to GG's wonky ideas.

At least that is how I understood it.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux