WOUNDED PILGRIMS

[Mark C.]

Hi Jay!

  I am glad that you able to understand the point that I was making.  It doesn't seem that God will ever remove my thin skin, but I most certainly am doing better with it.  When I'm tired, frustrated, and under pressure is when I have the most problems.

  I'd like to address Rachel (Sunshine-Praise) here because apparently the topic has been deleted (though it is in the ten most recent now).  What I have to say also may relate to this very thing of emotional reactions that you made comment on.

  I apologize to you Rachel because it is clear that I hurt your feelings.  

   Possibly Marcia was correct in thinking that I focus so much on bad religion I see it even in those who are truly and sincerely following Christ.  Frankly, I thought you (Rachel) were playing some kind of mind game (as Marcia said, "the posts speak for themselves").

  I'd like to try to start all over with you Rachel (if you're still around and if you're willilng).

   There are a couple of things from your last post though that I need to make clear:

 1.) I can't just not read the BB (though I miss a lot) and skip your posts because I am a moderator here and it's kinda of my place to know something of what's going on and keep tabs on things.  You can't use the BB as a private blog and just expect people to go away.

 2.) I am not interested in criticizing you, debating you, or otherwise trying to put you in your place.  I am trying to have a conversation with you.  

 3.) You started to post here by making an accusation that those on the BB needed to "get on with their lives and stop blaming GG for all their troubles."
   When others and myself tried to discuss this with you chose to ignore these questions; and yes, this is when I started thinking that you were not being sincere and might be pulling our leg.  I did become sarcastic, and again I apologize for losing my patience with you.

   The very last thing I want to do is to discourage anyone who is sincerely sharing their thoughts and feelings about their relationship with God, but due to most of those who visit this BB's past experiences it is very important that we be clear in sharing these publicaly.

 Expressions from our Assembly past thinking set forth as God's directive cannot go unchallenged, nor would a true follower of Christ object to entreaty in these matters.  Some of your posts supported some of those old GG notions.

 Questions/comments by most here re. those who make public their thinking about the nature of the Christian life via a post are offered in the spirit of trying to work through their own thoughts, and shouldn't be received as "put-downs."

  Marcia was critical of me, but I don't think less of her for that; on the contrary, I appreciate her candor and seriously considered her insight.  I have been wrong in the past, and needed to be set straight, and most certainly will be mistaken in the future.  In other words, not all our differences need send us over our emotional edges in an effort at self defense.

   I hope my comments above are helpful and that you Rachel consider them in the spirit in which I offer them.            God Bless,  Mark C.

  

[Christine]

I have been reading thru some of the past posts in the wounded pilgrims thread. I find I can relate to many of the stories and it puts my assembly experience into perspective.

Thanks for keeping this thread going.

C

[Mark C.]

Hi Christine!

  Thanks for the positive comments re. this thread and your encouragement to keep it going.

  If you feel up to it, you are most welcome to share your own story here.  As I've said before here, those sharing their own bio's make for much better reading than the one's I write.

  I am working on a "story" re. a child growing up in the group, and though my children were raised in the group, I think an actual story from a former child member would be more effective.

  I have my own perspective, based on my own experiences and those whose stories I know.  Many of the different groups, while all sharing a similar culture, had more positive relationships vs. the negative one's that others have had. More contributors with different views will help round out the total picture of what the group was really like.

  Your experience in reading the accounts of former members is exactly the same as mine when I first left.  I found that it was very helpful for me to see that I wasn't "falling away from the Lord," or "going crazy," as I read the accounts of former cult members on the websites available to me when I left.

   At the time of my leaving  GG had not been outed and the Assembly was still going strong.  There also was no Assembly specific place to go where I could go on the web.  Enroth's first book did come out shortly after I left, and that was very helpful for me, but this book just caused the Assembly to become more defensive (cult like) in their reactions.

  I did find a site on the web that was called "Wounded Pilgrims" and hence the name of this thread.  This site basically was made availabe for people to tell their stories re. their involvement in groups like the Assembly.

 I chronicle one such participant and his story on this thread (it was the first story I told on this thread) and how his ability to express his bad religious experiences was a necessary step to his recovery.  It was very moving to read his story and it had a dramatic effect on my own recovery.

  Some find such talk as an attempt to remain in a status of victimization, but most of these people who share their experiences do move on, and some of them even are able to hold on to a true faith in Christ.  That anyone could hold on to an evangelical Christian faith after their involvement is proof that God can work miracles in even the most beaten down and abused believer. 

   Those that avoid the process of grieving over their lost years in the group avoid an opportunity to learn from honest reflection and also the chance to work out a whole bunch of emotional issues.  If one does not try to make sense out of years of their involvement in bad religion they will escape the pain temporarily, but eventually it will come back to haunt them, IMHO.

  Once a commitment to honest reflection re. one's involvement in the group is made it allows for the truth that can set you free to blow through your soul like a mighty rushing wind!

 When the bible speaks of truth it is not just as regards theological truth, but personal honesty as well.  The Pharisees had some correct theology, but sorely lacked personal honesty; thus, they were unable to experience God's grace in their lives.

   The Gospels' are mostly a collection of personal encounters (stories) of individuals who encounter Jesus.  Some, like the Disciples, have repeated encounters.  These involve instruction on theology, but only as it actually impacts a person's life. 

    We must be truthful with ourselves, no matter the pain such admissions will bring.  In the Assembly being honest brought resistance, shaming, and the shattering of one's life.  With Christ being honest brings forgiveness, consolation, loving acceptance, and a building up of a healthy soul.

     We need not fear to admit our failures, or avoid honest thinking re. the same, as it has the ability to turn the ashes of bad religion into the beauty of a new understanding of God's grace and how it works in one's life.

                                                        God Bless,  Mark C.     

 

 

[Mark C.]

Hi Everyone!

  I'm going ahead with my attempt to do a bio based on a made-up composite of families I knew and the experiences they had while in the Assembly.  I hope that readers will feel free to interupt with their comments, additions, or even contrarian views to mine.

  I was in the group for 20 years aprox. and from about the start in Fullerton.  I know people will have different experiences in different locations, and in the later years. 

   Some will ask why I bring up the past and all it's negative memories, and what I hope to accomplish by doing so.   This is a good question and I hope that those with other opinions on this will feel free to air their disagreements here.

   An answer, in part, to the above, is that it is my opinion that our Assembly experience was formative and what was "made" in us there does not just go away by leaving the group, or even by the formation of a "new life", with new relationships, etc.

  New thinking is absolutely necessary, but new thinking can be just an emotional reaction against our negative past in the group.  There have been those who left who immediately reject the whole "God thing" as a bunch of baloney and become an atheist.

 Then, there are also those who react by identifying all evangelical Christian beliefs as being the same as the Assembly.  They therefore reject the authority of scripture and all that goes along with that.  They may still attend some kind of church, but not one that accepts the authority of God in their lives via God's word.

 
  We have identified other reactions from former members as well.  Many of the stories already shared deal with those who leave and hold on to a very strict and conservative view of the bible, but their refusual to evaluate the group and their participation in it leads to separation from God in their lives, though they strongly would argue that "they are walking with God".  They maintain an Assembly formed soul that lacks the humility to receive any criticism and adamantly refuses to discuss the topic.  This too is an emotional reaction against the pain of acknowledging what kind of person one really was/is.

    The point I'm trying to make here is that without an understanding of what we were involved with, and why we specifically as an individual were in the group, our thinking will be muddled by emotional reactions vs. a true search for God that requires honest and good thinking.

  I can understand why these different types of former members do react the way they do, and it is truly a miracle if anyone who leaves the group can manage to retain faith in God and continue their pursuit of Him.  Yet, God, who is the author and finisher of our faith, is in the business of doing just that!

  This "business" of God's, in finding lost sheep, though miraculous, is not nebulous; it requires asking, seeking, and finding on our part.  This search for meaning/understanding cannot be abandoned in our lives.  Filling our lives with new distractions, though better than the old deceptions, is not the pathway to fulfillment.

  Many of us came to the Assembly with a deep hunger for a truly meaningful relationship with God.  God never allowed you to go through the experience of the Assembly to mock you, and still remembers that longing you had.  It is my opinion that God has His eye on you in a very special way and that you are very dear to Him.

  I don't think folks find God in an intellectual vaccum that is separate from the condition of their own soul.  This "condition" is not based on strength of character (as in strong will, etc.), rather an admission of our own weakness ( not wanting here to start a theological battle, but rather a practical study in recovery for us).

  To make my point quite clear---- for us to recover to a good healthy relationship with God it is essential to face what we became in the group and allow God to form us anew by his loving and tender hands.  Everything else is a reaction that leads us away from God.

  I expect some rousing good debate over this!

                                                            God Bless,  Mark C.
       

[Mark C.]

                               THE SMITH FAMILY

   Lyle was an on-fire-for-the-Lord young man when he joined the Assembly.  He had no previous experience with Christian circles, and just readily accepted the message of GG that the Assembly was God's favorite group on the Earth.   Lyle wanted nothing more than to follow God with all his heart and earn the acceptance of GG that would prove that his performance was indeed pleasing to God.

   GG knew, as do all successful cult leaders, that by taking young enthusiastic followers one can easily make their loyalty to the leader equal to a true devoted following of God himself.  This is the foundation of the process of "making" an individual into "twice the son of hell" as the Pharisees were capable of doing.

  We will see later on what was formed in Lyle's soul, and how it affected his yet future marriage and children.  For now, it didn't seem to produce any "hellish" character flaws, as he, for all appearances, seemed to be a model Christian in all of his spheres of activity.  

   He was devoted to a strong and responsible work ethic, committed to personal devotional disciplines, and loyal group participation.  He certainly showed an improvement from his unsaved days where he wasted his life on drugs and immorality.  

  His parents were glad to see the change, but got a little tired of hearing from Lyle regarding their need to come out and to turn to God by coming out to hear GG preach.  They also rarely saw him now, as they got the idea their lack of involvement in the group made them worthless in Lyle's eyes.  This provided the first early warning to the parents that Lyle might be involved in a cult-like group.

 Still, he was now going to college, working, and not partying anymore; this caused his parents to stifle any negative reactions to his rather annoying devotion to this new group and the resulting rejection of them by Lyle.

  GG saw that Lyle was a good candidate as an member who could be molded to serve his ends.  Lyle had learned to harden his heart toward natural human affection, as exemplified with his parents above, and toward those not loyal to the group.  GG taught that loyalty to the Assembly was the highest character achievement, and the most honored by God.

  How GG did this was by making a distinction in his teaching re. "spiritual" behaviors/attitudes, vs. "natural" ones.   The Bible does make a distinction between the above, but not in the manner that GG did.   This can be a bit difficult to understand without an example, and hopefully this story will illustrate how GG twisted this and what a proper comparison of these two words, "spiritual" and "natural" might mean.

  Was the way that Lyle treated his parents spiritual because he chose to reject them for their lack of commitment to the group?  Would it have been "natural" for Lyle to take into consideration the feelings of his family at all?  Does God consider normal human affection to be non-spiritual?  What about the verse that says, "if anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple (LK. 14:26).

  The above paragraph contains some very important questions that a former Assembly member must answer, especially someone like Lyle who bought into GG's answers to the above.  One can not deny that Jesus taught the verse quoted above, and there are several ways to respond to it.

1.) We can just reject or ignore it.

2.) We can accept the GG interpretation that true following of Jesus means loyalty to the group and thus justify an attitude of "hate" toward all those who are not devoted to GG's "vision."

3.) We can rationalize away the harsh instruction of the verse as not being compatible with other teachings in the bible, and thus try to soften the meaning of the words.

4.) We can try to discover the context these words were shared in and ascertain how Jesus intended the hearers/readers to receive them.  This last approach can be confused with the previous one, but the two are not same.

   Without trying to develop a comprehensive interpretation of the above verse it should be obvious that Jesus was talking about being "my disciple" not being a church member.  Right away, without delving very deeply into the passage, we can reject GG's view that loyalty to the group equals true discipleship.  

   We then can make the determination that Jesus does demand absolute loyalty to Himself over any other "natural" relationship.  This means if it comes to a choice between loyality to the Lord, vs. rejecting Jesus in favor of these "natural" affections, we are to choose to follow God.

   I know there is a lot more to the interpretation of the above verse then I have discussed, but I wanted to point out how easy it is to reject the GG notion that loyalty to the group= true discipleship.  Something completely different and evil is formed in the soul when group loyalty replaces personal relationship with God himself.

   Personal loyalty to God is a formation that God works into our lives as a result of our dependance on grace.  Group loyalty, wrongly identified as following Christ, turns us into very dishonest religious politicians who end up becoming the very opposite of what Jesus meant when he said we should "carry our own cross and follow him."      

   As we continue the story I trust this will become apparent.  Some may ask at this point, "who are "the Smith family" this is supposed to be about?"  Lyle's last name is "Smith," and eventually he will marry and have some children.  Please feel free to interrupt this story with your comments, as it is going to take some time to tell the whole story of each family member.

                                                        God Bless,  Mark C.

[Mark C.]

                         The Smith Family---- Continued

    (All these names I come up with, BTW, like "Smith", etc., are not meant to suggest any real individual for whom I am trying to point these bio's at.  I receive emails at times from those who think I am trying to be specific.  GG is the only actual name that I use in identifying any individual.  I think a lot of us can identify with certain aspects of each person mentioned; I know that I can.)

    In the last post I introduced Lyle Smith, before he was married and had kids, in order for us to get to know a little about him.  I asked some questions and related a verse about loyalty to God and family.  I believe this is an important foundation in understanding how Lyle's family functioned and what they were to become.

  Just to restate the principles:

1.) Lyle was deceived into thinking loyalty to GG, his vision, and ministry were the only way to truly be loyal to God.

2.) GG accomplished this by using passages re.  denying natural affection and follwing Christ as proving his demands for total loyality to GG.

 3.) These passages never mention loyalty to men, churches, ministries, etc. , rather are made only between Jesus and the disciple.

  I understand there is a whole lot more to say about these verses GG misused, and if there are those who would like to discuss them please feel free to interrupt. 

   The most important issue here in this story, for me, is how the above GG distortion has affected this family.  When any person/group/ideology demands absolute submission, as only God himself can, the formative force in the life is truly dramatic.   Our job, in recovery from this deception, is to separate out true discipleship from the false version peddled by GG.

  But for our children raised in this what can we do?  If you were a child raised in this how do you see it?

  It is also important to note how Lyle received the GG notions re. "spiritual and natural."  GG's teaching on "vision" said basically that he saw things the way God saw them and that to disagree meant you lacked insight and consequently were "naturally minded."  GG was absolutely confident in his belief that he was God's apostle and spoke for him.

   The Bible tells us that the truly spiritual are humble people who are easy to receive entreaty and whom will not demand others to submit to their personal will.  Truly spiritual leaders realize that only God has such authority in a person's life.

  GG's attempt to take God's place in members lives is the truest definition of spiritual abuse, because it damages a very sacred and important place in the human soul.  This makes it very difficult for some who have left the Assembly to have any kind of life with God at all.  Children raised in the group often just reject the whole "religion thing" because it all seems like a cruel hoax, phony, etc.  Have we "made" our kids in this same image?

  As the story develops we'll see how Lyle's kids are formed as Lyle takes this same "place of God" that GG usurped in Lyle's life.

                                                   God Bless,  Mark C.

[Mark C.]

          THE SMITH FAMILY CONT. : INTRODUCING MRS. SMITH

  (I have been on vacation for 2 weeks and this is why this continuing saga has been delayed  ).

  The "sister," who becomes Mrs. Smith, was named Faith.  Raised in a Christian family she discovered the Assembly via a campus Bible study and was attracted to it because of the serious commitment of those in the group.

  In the church that she was raised in the gathering seemed to be nothing more than a sham version of true Christianity.  The youth group of this church especially lacked any kind of meaningful commitment to spirituality. 

  As did her husband to be, Lyle, Faith came to the Assembly with an eager desire to please Christ.  This desire was also manipulated by GG as it was in Lyle.  She was about to be made into a new kind of person via the pressures that were about to be brought upon her by the group.

   What Lyle and Faith saw as deep commitment to God in the Assembly, vs. the shallow version in the "worldly churches," seemed to them as very clearly evident.  One of the "evidences" was in how the children behaved in the Assem. meetings vs. in their previous church experiences, and one which will be very important in the understanding their story.

  In the next post we will see how these two progressed in their married lives in the group and how they raised their children there.

                                                              God bless,  Mark C.

 

     

[Mark C.]

        THE SMITH FAMILY CONTINUED:  THE FIRST CHILD ARRIVES.


  (An introductory comment:  It has been difficult for me to continue this story as it has stirred some very unpleasant memories of the raising of my own two girls in the Assembly.

 I didn't realize how difficult it would be until I started to think about the specifics re. the "training" of children in the group and how foolish and guilty I now feel for allowing the Assembly to stiffle my normal human affection in favor of a "higher kind of Divine love" that would lead to "God's best for my children."

  While I'm sure that discipline is a good thing for kids, to suggest that cold hearted, and only negative behavior modification techniques, is how God loves--- and consequently how we should treat others--- is a very serious distortion of a loving Christian family.)

  The Smith family were happy to actually become a family via the birth of a son we'll call Jack.  The Leading bros.'s were adamant that this newborn be brought to the meetings within the first week of birth as it would, "be a bad example to other parents in the group if you do not Lyle."

  This was urged even though Faith had a C-Section delivery and the doctor advised waiting a couple of weeks before taking the baby out.  Lyle mentioned this to the Bros.'s and they instructed Lyle that, "those who honor God, God will honor," and " that Lyle needed to "have power over his wife in this situation."

  Thus, the leading bros.'s, under the direction of GG and Betty, at the very first took control of the Smith family and made obedience to their views on how to raise a family a "spiritual" issue that was absolute.  Doctors, the thoughts and feelings of the wife, and the natural loving attitudes of the husband were not only to be ignored they were actually, in the Assembly's view, opposed to the will of God!

  Once Lyle and Faith allowed the breaking down of their loyality and affection toward one another, in favor of the demand to make the group their first priority, it allowed them to progress along a very slippery path toward a very wrong end.

   Yes, I know that many in the group avoided this slide into what at times came close to (or even crossed the lines into) child abuse, but to do so they had to live double and very dishonest lives, and this has it's consequences as well.  It was evident in the meetings who were those who were "child training" and who were not; if you were high up in the pecking order you could often get away with an "out-of-control" child.

 These "special" children raised in this Assembly ruse were in some ways hurt worse than their "less special" associates as at least the latter's parents had the character advantage of sincerity in how they raised them.  The Leaders of the group (the Special ones) had already given up on sincerity a long time ago, and had sold out good consciences in favor of winning the approval of GG and Betty.

 When the conscience goes great harm is done to a person and it will for sure have an affect on the children.   

   I don't say this in some kind of angry condemnation, for healing for the repentant is my hope.  God most surely can turn the ashes of our Assembly failure into beauty.  He also can restore to us the children that we have lost from our sacraficing them in an effort to climb the ladder in the group.  However, we must be honest with our past if this healing will find it's way to our hearts'.

   We will go next into some of the child training methods that were taught.  These came primarily from Betty and were enforced via those "Sisters" who formed her cadre of lieutenants.

  I'm sure there are those who have some vivid examples to share and they are most welcome to interrupt my posting with their own memories.  I know this is a very sad topic, and one I do not enjoy telling, but I think for some it is one that should be honestly faced because it might really help.  I trust that how it will help might become apparent as we continue.

                                                                      God Bless,  Mark C.

[Mark C.]

                                      SPARE THE ROD AND SPOIL THE CHILD

    The Smith family did not take to their Assembly instruction immediately or easily.  Betty knew parents had a reluctance to "go the way of the cross," with their own natural affections, and so developed an intensive means of psychological pressure to "make" parents conform to her views.

    Meetings, with only new mothers, were designed to teach a system called "mat times" where kids were to be trained to sit quietly for many hours on a small mat for the Assembly gatherings.  Paddling was the means used to force compliance. 

    The key to implementation of Betty's methods was seeing all failure of the children to obey as being classified as rebellion against the parent and thus ultimately rebellion against God!  This not only developed an incorrect view of how we are to see and relate to God in the child it also did this for the parent.  Betty's system not only hurt children's potential to develop a healthy relationship with God it also harmed something in the soul of the parents.

   As for the child:  Think of growing up in the Assembly, and very deep inside, having the concept formed that God's attitude toward you is one of continual anger.  "Why is God so angry with me?"  Could it be that I am basically defective as a person?  And, I am mostly defective because I have a will and mind of mine own and refuse to submit these blindly to authority in my life."

   Of course, we don't allow children to excercise their wills and wants without any restraint, and there is such a thing as rebellion against authority, but when the child's will is what is being attacked, in an attempt to break it, (vs. teaching the child to control their inner life) this is a most serious form of abuse that can cause all kinds of deep resentment against authority and ultimately against God himself.

   These children can grow up to be compliant, but very, very bitter, and as soon as they can get free they will run as fast and hard as they can away from their parents God that doesn't like them the way they are and actually wants to hurt them for daring to challenge his authority.

   This demands some thinking on our part, if we are to try and understand God better, and how to make sense of what the NT actually is teaching regarding a balance between discipline and love.  Most Christian ministry to families today deal with the need for discipline, because that is how our Christian culture is most out-of-whack today.  However, our situation is the exact opposite and as a consequence we have to learn how to love more (we will talk more about this later).

  About this time Faith had been spanking her little 6 month old child, Jack, and while visiting her Mom she noticed the welts on his behind.  This created a huge crisis for the Assembly, as the Mom called in outside authorities and was enraged with how her Grandson was being abused.

  The Assembly spin machine was brought into action at this time:

1.) Betty began to say that she never approved of parents spanking children in the meetings.

    When Faith protested that she had been instructed to do these things she was met with flat denials from the Assembly Sister Leadership (in other words they just lied to her to protect the group).

 2.) Parents were taught how to spank without leaving these marks

 The propaganda went forward that Doctors and Worldly parents would not understand why we spanked our kids and it could be made into an advantage for the Enemy.

    Faith knew that she had been lied to and when she told her husband he was filled with confusion between the facts of the situation and the Assembly spin machine.  This experience had two different effects upon two different kind of members:

 1.) Doubting parents hid away these doubts in their hearts and they would cause an eventual awakening of conscience that would lead to standing up against what they believed to be wrong in the group.

 2.) Those working for the Assembly spin machine would have to harden their hearts against the facts and this would produce serious character damage to the souls of these individuals.

  Both of these responses would produce different reactions among their families.

                                                                   God Bless,  Mark C.
   

[Mark C.]

                                          A PAUSE IN CONTINUING THIS STORY


   As I already mentioned, I am having great difficulty in writing this story.  It is becoming quite literally painful for me to attempt to dredge back up these old memories---- much more so than I realized it would be before I started it!

   The reason for this is I see my own dear sweet daughters, and how I as a parent treated them, while in the Assembly.  I sit down at the computer ready to write and am overcome with such a terrible feeling of depression that I am unable to continue.

  Why is this so?  15 + years out and my two daughters ( 28 and 26) not seeminly showing any ill effects from our having raised them in the group.  If they had grown up to hate God, their parents, and become say drug addicts, then I would really have a right to feel bad----- right?

  I talked to my oldest daughter recently and it was an interesting conversation.  She knows the Assembly was too strict, but also is aware that our motives while in the group as parents were from a deep care for her, and in that sense she does not remember any instances of abuse.

  Many of her present day adult friends were raised in an extremely permissive environment and the message these friends of her's received from this is a feeling of not being loved.  My daughter is grateful that we cared enough to instill the values in her that we did.

   My youngest daughter sent me a wonderful card recently on Sindy and mine's 30th anniversary.  She thanked us for our commitment to one another in our marriage and what an example we have been to her.  In looking back over our past family life she remembers the vacations we took together, our family times, but makes no mention at all about the Assembly (or any other church we ever attended either).

   So again, why am I finding it so difficult to talk about this?   Or maybe it's a topic better not discussed at all, and one that will not be helpful to me or to those who read here?

  My oldest daughter still fears people from church.  She is very cautious around these kind of people because she just doesn't trust them.  She believes they are not honest people and only want to use you.  She has a greater trust in her husband's Brother who is in and out of prison because at least it is clear exactly who he is.

  My youngest daughter seems to fit well into the church they attend and does not have these fears.  However her method of parenting is a very strong reaction against the Assembly method she was raised in.  She does not spank and tries to reason with the children vs. using a negative form of control.

   So, maybe there are some ill effects after all, but what good is it to rehash this history here and now?  I pray daily for them and my eight grandchildren--- is that enough?

   Please feel free to state your opinion and don't worry about hurting my feelings (I am asking for your honest responses).  My motive is to try and help others struggling with emotional difficulties that make it hard for them to live a happy Christian life (in a non-professional kind of sharing from one that has been through similar difficulties).

  I know that not everybody has exactly these kinds of problems, and that there are also issues regarding one's faith that are more cognitive in nature (as is being discussed on other threads), but the NT talks about "weeping with those that weep", for instance, as well as the doctrinal side of "studying to show oneself approved, etc."  There is knowing what to believe, but there is also experiencing the joy of that faith in one's life; both are essential parts of a whole Christian person.

                          Thanks for reading and God Bless,  Mark C.

   

     

[tenderhearted]

Hi Mark:

I just read your feelings over sharing your story, and how you are contemplating the consequences effects of raising your daughters within the assembly.

I have share with this board "Me" quite openly.

Maybe there is some residual affects left within you, that you have not dealt with, that is surfacing by sharing your past  history with the assembly. By sharing with others, so the purpose of aiding others who walked the same walk, but is still coming to terms with their own separations from the assembly.
By hurting you, in aiding others, you maybe helping clean up some of those residual feelings also.

Can I ask a question? Have you given over your guilt to God yet!
If so, why are you taking it back!
I recently read in a daily devotional book, that when God forgives us from our sins, He also forgives our guilt.
As human beings, we tend to take it back, wade into it, worry over it, etc.  Or human beings tend to inflict guilt on to others, because of misery wants company.

I myself am dealing with the guilt of consequences of my actions had on my girls. Those consequences are quite painful to bear. So I am waiting until God heals the land that the locust have eaten, impatiently I might add.

Thanks Mark for the contributions you give to this site.

In Christ shadow.
Lenore

[summer007]

Mark, You have tread into the waters of the "triggers" and Margaret has just posted an article on the subject in "Whats New" at GA. It seems you have more regret over the years your Family spent in the assm. Your girls were so young when you left, you may have gotten them out before more damage was done. The oldest one probibly fears church people because she see's how you were taken advantage of, and to this day you are working things out, she obviously loves, honors, and respects you and your wife but she feels you both were used. Yet even if you were at the time maybe you thought you were doing the right thing (God's will so to speak) just because GG fell does'nt mean everyone was without sincerity. And your younger daughter is probibly reasoning with positive discipline which is good too. I mention this because you stated reasoning vs. negative control, no I don't agree with this, discipline is good in many ares of life and can be positive just the statement negative control is so assm over-board it's good she maybe see's this and you should be glad she in some way recognizes this even if its on a sub-conscience level. For example my two children were very different one I just said something and he got it, he did'nt need a heavy hand and is still wonderful today. My daughter was alittle more strong willed, like me, and would put up a bit of a fight, yet she's just as wonderful and a blessing from God my gifts and reward. So while you battle this out remember Paul said with some things you have to forget what is past, behind and reach for what is ahead. Only you know your motives and what you did in the assm. I would let Christ set you free from the pain of regret you can't take it back now, but God forgives and can cause all things to work together for good. Just an observation hope it helps. Summer 

[Mark C.]

  Thank you Lenore and Summer.

  It is one thing to understand, and even have solutions to, painful memories, and another altogether to actually be able to face it straight on.

  As an example:  Some of the worst physical pain I have faced has been in a dentist chair (nearly passed out twice) and yet I know that I should go to the dentist in spite of that fear of pain. Yet,  If I don't go to the dentist the problems in my mouth will only get worse so it must be done---- still, I procrastinate because of my recollections of great discomfort. 

   As long as I don't have any present pain in my mouth it becomes easy to ignore, but when I start to get an ache in my tooth I'm forced to face the facts of my fearful neglect.

  I think this is what happened when I started the story about "The Smith Family", and it did indeed trigger some painful memories that I had figured I had pretty much gotten over.  Summer, I have read that article on the Reflections site (very good articles over there and they have been very, very helpful) on triggers, but just knowing that they can occur, and even what causes them doesn't tell us how to work through it.

  "Forgetting those things that are past and pressing on----etc." is good advice if used as the Apostle Paul intended it.  Paul, in the context of this passage, was not forgetting his bad religious past (in fact he recounts it many times in the NT and just did so in the preceeding verses --Philp. 3.).

   Paul did recognize that he received mercy from God because, "Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief(I:Tim. 1:13)  This goes to your point, Summer, that sincerity is truly an issue re. who does better or worse in their recovery from the group.

  Thank you both for your encouragement re. not feeling guilty, and it is something that I struggle with on a daily basis--- it's just a natural thing for me to habitually respond in a guilty way----- and I think I have described my "cycle of guilty devotion" in the past here in re. to this. 

   What I want to get to in my response here is: I believe it is important to face one's fears/guilts, etc. because they can't be escaped by trying to ignore them.  This, in my opinion, would be a terrible misunderstanding of Paul's use of the "forgetting those things that are past."  Had Paul not understood how his Pharisee past (which in many ways was similar to our own) was processed in his own thinking and feeling he would never really understand how the depths of grace work in his own life.  The grace that "worked mightly in him", was not just an intellectual excercise, but a result of honest remembering of his toxic religious past and God's power to free his thinking and feeling from that evil system.

   There are some that see no benefit in understanding how the Assembly system appealed to them, controlled them, and allowed them to do some very evil things; though quite truthfully they did so thinking they were serving God.  To just recognize that GG was bad and not understand our own part in the Assembly history is to miss out on a whole lot indeed!

  As to everyone's specific situation:  The pain we feel, however it is triggered, probably is because we have not really faced honestly our failing, and first, as Paul did, take responsibility for our bad decisions.  Like the dentist, I may not want to go, but if I don't the problems will only get worse.

  In trying to write about Assembly parenting/kids I have discovered some issues I need to get right with my own kids.  I'm sure they do understand (as you suggested Summer) that I did these things "in ignorance", and most likely the greatest benefit will be mine.  I trust I can share the results here and these will help others.

                           Thanks again so much for your kind encouragement and God bless,  Mark C.



       

[outdeep]

Mark,

Thank you for your post concerning child-training.

One thing I personally didn't have to face is the consequences of raising my kids in the Assembly.  We left just before Nathan was going into Kindergarten and Josiah was carried to one tent meeting before we split the scene.  As a result, there is almost no recollection for them of the Assembly.

Nevertheless, this idea of "reacting towards bad ideas" that you see in one daughter is interesting because I had the same experience.  Much of my parenting is a reaction against what I saw was wrong in others.  My mother was very controlling and my dad didn't do anything about it so as a reaction, I moved to the other extreme to make sure my kids aren't controlled and that I let them be independent.

I remember observing a high school student in the Assembly.  He was not allowed to join the football team because practice would conflict with meetings.  When he finally graduated from high school, he was completely incapable of making any kind of decision of what to do with his life.  He is doing fine now, but his transition to adulthood was a disaster.

This had a deep impression on me and caused me to value highly my kid's independence.  The downside is that I made mistakes the other way - often being too trusting with my kids and too permissive at times.  I allowed doors to open (such as the type of movies they view) too early.  So my road of parenting was not without problems as well.

However, what I discovered is that parenting is much less tied to method as we were led to believe but an earnest determination to love your kid (in the best sense of the word), keep a relationship open, and want the best in their life.

I have observed:
Parents who spank and have great kids.
Parents who spank and have rebellious kids.
Parents who don't spank and have great kids.
Parents who don't spank and have rebellions kids.

So I have learned that parenting is much less an impersonal method (as we were taught in the Assembly) that would guarentee success.  Rather, parenting is a dynamic where the parent uses various tools available to them in order to guide their kids towards success.  Good parents can ultimately get to the same place even if they use different tools more effectively that another would.

For your daughter who doesn't spank:  May I suggest the book Parenting with Love and Logic?  Like any system, it has its strengths and weaknesses.  Nevertheless, it contains more tools that I found useful - especially when my kids hit their teen years.

-Dave

[summer007]

Mark, Some of the things you mentioned we'd all be guessing at, as to who recovers quicker, those not interested in knowing every detail of the assm..really Mark thousands of posts have been made on the subject of the assm which really is'nt the name of the group cause it had no name #1 and as far as facing up you were in about 3X longer then I was so I'd say you would have a more difficult time. I think Lenore hit on something when she mentioned maybe you've been helping the people, but not yourself so to speak I mean you left 15 years ago, and you were in for 20 years. People have gone over all these things and arn't as obsessed as you appear to be. It might be a good thing for you to invest in the Wellness Retreat if you hav'ent already gone, cause you do seem like you want to help others through the process to healing and all counselers have to examine themselves psycologists and psychiratrists etc. And I think their is a personality that is drawn to assm types of groups it was referred to on GA. The Lord can heal you remember Joseph said God caused him to forget...yet it seems you don't want to forget. Eventually every prayer will be answered if not now then later, so your healing wiil be as you go by faith,and I mean healing from the pain. As far as the why of it all..If God came down right now and gave you every answer as to why you were in the assm would it help? He visited Paul that way,eh ,if you knew would it really make a difference? Your going to find out eventually not everyone is interested in dwelling on the assm  it already cost alot of time and money, it had no-name, no accountability, leaders with no training started by someone who stormed out of several churches and was eventually ex-communicated from the one he started yes these are tough to face, but who wants to focus on this, its a weight that keeps you from your focus of running a race and having full joy. I mean this in the most sincere sence, please see that.  Summer  p.s. Do you think Paul was trying to forget the past in relation to killing christians or what? or just the legal bondage?