WOUNDED PILGRIMS

[amycahill]

Self confidence is suppposed to be a sign of being a healthy person, but as a Christian I don't like the idea of being confident in myself---- somehow it doesn't sound right.  Now, I know that the Assembly message of self loathing isn't right either---- so, does God want us to be confident people in some kind of way? 

Don't tell me that the answer is to be confident in God, because I already know that God performs to perfection--- the problem is: can I know that I am in sync with God and am confident of that fact as I function in my life?   Maybe it would be better, if I'm not in sync with God, and so prone to human failure, to just be silent?

 No doubt there are those who might say "amen" to this.  Especially those who believe that "the BB has served it's purpose", and "it's time to move on", "all has been said that needs to be said re. The Assm. and the lessons to be learned from our past there".  Do you think that God is finished with ministering to former members of the group?  Do you think the problems found in the group do not continually find new places to grow afresh where whole new groups are formed around the same kinds of errors? Do you believe that the Assm. wasn't really that far away from God and that people like me are making a mountain out of a molehill?  Good questions to ask, for either I'm wasting my time, or some folks are really out of sync with God. 

 When I think about it, there are issues that I am pretty confident about and these seem to awaken me from my self introspection.  Some of these things I feel the need to say something about, and others make me downright outraged enough to strongly oppose.  Since this is getting a bit long, I will give a more detailed account as to what these issues that animate me might be, and what that might have to do with "Wounded Pilgrims" and this BB.  I would be very interested to hear the comments of others.

                                                                God bless,  Mark C.   

Eh, I'm debating how to answer this question.  I am confident in myself in large part because I am confident in God and that I am being led by God...but I am not your usual case, because God talks to me constantly and the things He says come true.  Would we were all led that way, but I realize most folks are not.  For all that, I get things wrong sometimes (me, not God!) and have come to accept that some measure of human error is part of this deal.  This is even in the Bible.  A prophet told Paul that the Jews were going to do one thing to him, then the Romans this other thing.  Well, it happened, but the prophet got it backwards -- it was the Jews who did the latter thing and the Romans the former!  This was brought up to me by a Calvary Chapel pastor and I am assuming he knew what he was talking about. 

A very holy woman, St. Therese the Little Flower of Jesus, reveled in her imperfections.  She did not trust herself to be perfect; she trusted God to be perfect.  She actually liked it when she messed something up, because it emphasized to her the perfection of God all the more.

In other words, we can in fact be right about a lot of things (like this BB, and what is happening here, and I agree with Flora about the importance of the BB) without HAVING to be right about everything.

Really not sure where all this came from, but I hope it helped.

Amy

[Mark C.]

Thanks Amy,

  Sorry for the very tardy response, but I used the short time I had to respond on another topic.  I see your point, re. confidence, and it does help.  I used to have the confidence that "God spoke to me all the time (and I'm sure he still tries to) but the problem I have is wondering if I'm hearing him right.

  Since leaving the Assm. I have moved away from the "hearing the still small voice" from within and tried to understand God from reading the bible and scholars interpretations.  The reason for this is not that I don't believe God can speak personally to me, but that I don't trust myself to really know whether I'm just talking to myself, or the message is really from God.

  For years I believed that God was telling me to stay in the Assm. and that I belonged to the one true church.  For those same decades God was hammering away at me via different means to try and get a word in edgewise--- I was blissfully out of tune with the true will of God.  That process of not hearing God and being programmed to follow GG was able to work via the subtle shift where "hearing God" became a subjective experience vs. objective knowledge.

  Now, there are a host of different views re. what that "objective knowledge" really is, so what I've done is tried to find the common denominator of what God is saying.  That foundational speaking of God, to me, is the Gospel---- God come to us in Jesus Christ who died for our sins, etc.  God's speaking in the Son given at the cross informs all my other interpretations of specific text and gives me my bias when I view competing interpretations.

  However, this does not help me to know what exactly God wants me to do in re. to serving here on this BB.  I know there are those who think this BB is a waste of time, an unhealthy experience, or that it now can only have a very limited value.  I am of the opinion that it serves a good purpose and I should continue (and your encouragement helps in re. to this) but how do I know God wants me to continue?

  Again, I'm not fishing for encouragement, as someone may come back (quite sincerely) and tell me it's time to move on.  I can handle that--- if I believe it is from God.

                                                                            God Bless,  Mark C. 

                                                                                 

[moonflower2]

Hi Mark,

I just came across your posting of March 8.

This may be a simple way of looking at things, but the way I see things is that if there is a need and I can fill it, then God wants(ed) me to do that particular thing. There are many things for which I just don't have time, energy, money, etc., so it is an impossibility for me to do that thing. But if I see it and it is within my reach, that is different.

I think there is a continuing need for this BB for many reasons. There are some still coming out of the groups, some coming back to God after having left, some who are members of another abberent religious group, and some may be attending the preaching that is rising up again in CA.

Although the truth of the assembly groups came out on one particular date, we are processing the information at different rates, because some of us were totally kept in the dark regarding certain events and behaviors. I think it will take us a loooooong time to sort through everything that transpired in the assembly groups and how it affected us and our families. And I think we should be aware that it has affected us. We are not going to change overnight and, like abused children, will carry certain scars for the rest of our lives, whether we were the abused or the abuser.

Your current contributions may help anyone reading here to realize that there is someone here who may be willing to communicate with them if they have that need.

I'm glad you're still here. 

Moonflower

[Garrett Ngo]

Last Sunday on the way home from a men’s retreat, I pulled off the freeway to look at historical houses in the city of Redlands.  To my surprise I drove right past the retirement community that George and Betty live at. 

My curiosity was piqued.  I made a u turn, parked my car in front of the community center and went in.  Immediately to the left of the main entrance there is a 6X18 feet display case. The display case contained “small” pictures of children in their native land and missionary artifacts were displayed.  I emphasize “small” because there was one “big” picture.  Of course you guessed it.  A “big” picture of George in Africa was prominently displayed for all to see.  See the picture, look at the man and be in wonderment!!!!!

I dropped my head, chuckled to myself and walked out.  The glorious truth is that the “big” picture, the un-readable books that can’t sell on E-bay, the vain babbling on the outdated cassettes that fills up the recycling bins will all burn and nothing will remain. 

Come Jesus Come!

[outdeep]

Garrett,

That is so funny.  And sad.  Maybe even pathetic.

-Dave

[moonflower2]

Garrett,

That is so funny.  And sad.  Maybe even pathetic.

-Dave

I find that kind of sick, actually. Can't anyone do something?
Nevermind. I'll just play my mindgames.

Stay tuned for the next episode of Twilight Zone: The Return of the Phoenix From Purgatory.

Interesting:

In Jewish folklore, it is said that the phoenix was the only animal not to join Adam in his banishment from the Garden of Eden.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_(mythology)

I wonder if it had snake-like features? 

[outdeep]

I'm betting it is that picture of George with the Massai warriors.  He was proud of that because "most Massai warriors don't let their picture be taken but they were willing to take them with me."  It strengthened his argument about his impact in Africa because when he went on the safari, he saw the "big three" (Lion and two others).  His guide kept saying, "Great is the God of Geftakys" because this was so unusual.

Goes to show the massive impact his ministry had upon the contenent.   

Tom and I have a bet he really got those Massai pictures from a stand where you could pay $10 to get a picture made with Massai warriors.

[Oscar]

Dave,

Sounds like GG's ideas on Masai "warriors" are another area of his delusional world.  Back in the 50's, when TV was new, they used to show films of Masai warriors hunting lions that dated from the 1920's.

They were made by a couple named Martin and Osa Johnson.  They flew around in a couple of old Sikorsky flying boats and landed on various rivers in remote places.  Good films that captured views of this culture before it was so heavily impacted by modernity.

I used to show a film about the Masai to my 6th grade classes back in the 70's. The kids were interested in the Masai houses.  Seems they were made out of a substance that can be found on the ground behind relieved cattle.

I noticed that the film showed one of the Masai "warriors" working in a car factory.  I guess he dressed up for tourists like GG on weekend trips home.  This fellow was shown in both venues.

Tom Maddux

[Margaret]

Yeah, if you google Masai warrior images, pages and pages come up. One of them is captioned, "Masai warriors posing for money"....

[Mark C.]

I think there is a continuing need for this BB for many reasons. There are some still coming out of the groups, some coming back to God after having left, some who are members of another abberent religious group, and some may be attending the preaching that is rising up again in CA.

Although the truth of the assembly groups came out on one particular date, we are processing the information at different rates, because some of us were totally kept in the dark regarding certain events and behaviors. I think it will take us a loooooong time to sort through everything that transpired in the assembly groups and how it affected us and our families. And I think we should be aware that it has affected us. We are not going to change overnight and, like abused children, will carry certain scars for the rest of our lives, whether we were the abused or the abuser.

I'm glad you're still here. 

Moonflower

Hi Moon!

  I am very glad that you are still here too!   I am also glad that I'm not the only one to believe what you state above,"---I think we should be aware that it has affected us."

  Now, I know that the degree of the scarring of the soul for former members will be different, and this makes it difficult for those only slightly damaged to understand the "soooooo long" part.  "Why can't some just "move on" quickly and "get over it"? 

 It seems simple:  we belonged to a group with a messed up view of God and what it means to be his child.  This bad view of God was manufactured as a means to control members lives with the intent to use them to meet the warped needs of the leaders.  Totally upside down from the will of God.

 For a start, there are former members who won't even accept the premise in the sentence above; the only problem with the Assm. that they see was GG's immorality (that's even not mentioning groups like Pasadena, Riv. etc. who won't acknowledge that).

  For those of us (like myself) who bought in hook, line, and sinker to the Assm. one-true-church-higher life-heavenly vision-ad nauseum stuff it does create damage that goes deeper than just learning how to separate bad teaching from good.

  As I said, first we have to be willing to accept that we were involved in bad teaching and then learn what is a proper view of God's will.  Going beyone this we have to understand how decades of living under that toxic system have affected our souls.  I think the best place to start with this is to honestly evaluate how your life is going now.

  Risking the personal embarrassment, I wll use myself as an example  .  The Assm. formed me as to my view of self.  This formative process did prey upon my natural fallen tendency toward self introspection.  I am very sensitive to criticism now and can become very defensive.  Now, having a sensitivity to pain in others can have some side benefits for ones character, but when it is focused on my own feelings it can have a negative outcome.

  I have been out of the group since May 1991 and still this sore spot in my soul exists.  Someone might say it should be gone by now, but try as I might I still retain certain painful reactions when that spot is touched.  Why can't I just ignore the sensitivity and move on? 

  I have learned to manage it much better as time goes on, but that weakness is still there. 

  I think that many former members continue to use the false Assm. holiness (if not in their doctrine still in their souls) assumptions that cause them to deny the facts of their own inner struggles: denial of the compromises we made in the group that created a hardened heart.

   Flora said something very interesting when quoting the Elder she confronted about his abuse of her: "Maybe I have a heart hardened because of sin" (or something close to this).  The sin of sitting by (even if we were not the originators of abusive behavior) and not resisting the evil in the group have affected our inner lives in a very serious way!  Were I to sit by and watch a molestation of an innocent child without taking action-- even If I was shocked and repulsed at the evil---- my cowardice actually is formative within me in a particular way.

   In other words, our immoral choices do damage in our lives.  To tie this into my personal example: When I bought into the notion that the evil I saw was not evil, but "God's govt." in action, and put to death the sense within that the wrong I saw was not really wrong, it was like taking a dose of poison for the soul---- not enough to kill it, but enough to harden a part of my humanity.

  The most holy saint on earth cannot kill their own ego; self, and self image, are very important in living a happy life as a believer.  When we do shameful things we can try and forget what produced the shame, or possibly rationalize (or spiritualize) them away.  How I feel about myself as a former member must be faced honestly and the process of restoration of the soul must be started or we risk living the rest of our lives with very much reduced humanity and certainly minimized spiritual lives.

 Yes, God has forgiven me, but deep in my psyche my "holiness" program kicks in automatically to make me feel a sense of self loathing for being such a coward in face of those damaging God's children.  There is more to this thought, but enough said for now.

                                                                 God bless,  Mark C.

[amycahill]

Thanks Amy,

  Sorry for the very tardy response, but I used the short time I had to respond on another topic.  I see your point, re. confidence, and it does help.  I used to have the confidence that "God spoke to me all the time (and I'm sure he still tries to) but the problem I have is wondering if I'm hearing him right.

  Since leaving the Assm. I have moved away from the "hearing the still small voice" from within and tried to understand God from reading the bible and scholars interpretations.  The reason for this is not that I don't believe God can speak personally to me, but that I don't trust myself to really know whether I'm just talking to myself, or the message is really from God.       

I understand, because I have the same problem.  That's why I get everything I hear discerned!  The only way to do this safely is to have accountability with trustworthy people and checking things against sound doctrine.  Otherwise, yeah, you do walk down the garden path and it can get REALLY messy!

[amycahill]

Last Sunday on the way home from a men’s retreat, I pulled off the freeway to look at historical houses in the city of Redlands.  To my surprise I drove right past the retirement community that George and Betty live at. 

My curiosity was piqued.  I made a u turn, parked my car in front of the community center and went in.  Immediately to the left of the main entrance there is a 6X18 feet display case. The display case contained “small” pictures of children in their native land and missionary artifacts were displayed.  I emphasize “small” because there was one “big” picture.  Of course you guessed it.  A “big” picture of George in Africa was prominently displayed for all to see.  See the picture, look at the man and be in wonderment!!!!!

Hmmm, so George is now the Big Cheese at the retirement home, having mostly failed to be the Big Cheese anywhere else.  How appropo.  It really IS all about him, you know.   

[Mark C.]

Hi Everyone!

  I have been having a conversation via email with a former member where we have been discussing the concern that a lot of Christian preaching today is focused on a preoccupation with "me", as a believer, vs. on God himself.

  As a former member of the Assm. I am very suspect of those telling me I am "too self-centered" and need to "put self to death".  In the group this "putting to death of self" went beyond just clearly sinful behaviors and extended to the depths of ones soul--- normal human desires--- such as career, marriage, or just wanting to be a happy person.

  Since the Bible does warn about self centered attitudes and behaviors ("take up your cross, etc.") does this mean that all my personal desires are selfish?

  Possibility even a better question is are there those who have been able to "crucify self" and exemplify a life of total self  disinterest, exemplifying a total surrender to the will of God? 

  I have been able to make clear in my own mind how the Assm. twisted the use of "dying to self," in that the teaching was incorrectly applied to loyalty to the group vs. ones own independent ability to reason and challenge the group-think.  However, outside of this now obvious twisting what does it mean to truly avoid a "Me" centered life vs. one that is "God centered"?   

  I am interested in hearing what former members have learned on this subject.

                                                                                God Bless,  Mark C.

[Flora]

Every human being is born self-centred. Putting self first is part of our human nature. Welcome To The Human Race!

When we are saved, we received a new nature and we are exhorted to put off the old man and to put on Christ. To my understanding, this is to become our life-long daily practice.

I don't believe this translates to a goal of "a life of total self disinterest, exemplifying a total surrender to the will of God". Rather, this means to bring your will, emotions and mind into alignment or harmony with God.

Also, I agree with Mark, that the Assembly twisted the meaning of putting off the old nature. We don't deny our humanity. We prioritize our desires. Often when we put God first, our desires change into that which is in harmony with God.

A chorus I learned as a young child, explains it in a very simple, easy-to-understand way. The Chorus is called "Joy".

J-O-Y

J - is for Jesus, for He has first place,
O - is for others you meet face to face,
Y - is for you, in whatever you do, put Jesus first and spell Joy.

J - is for Jesus, for He has first place,
O - is for others you meet face to face,
Y - is for you, in whatever you do, put yourself last and spell Joy.

Lord bless,

Flora

[Mark C.]

Every human being is born self-centred. Putting self first is part of our human nature. Welcome To The Human Race!

When we are saved, we received a new nature and we are exhorted to put off the old man and to put on Christ. To my understanding, this is to become our life-long daily practice.

I don't believe this translates to a goal of "a life of total self disinterest, exemplifying a total surrender to the will of God". Rather, this means to bring your will, emotions and mind into alignment or harmony with God.

Also, I agree with Mark, that the Assembly twisted the meaning of putting off the old nature. We don't deny our humanity. We prioritize our desires. Often when we put God first, our desires change into that which is in harmony with God.

A chorus I learned as a young child, explains it in a very simple, easy-to-understand way. The Chorus is called "Joy".

J-O-Y

J - is for Jesus, for He has first place,
O - is for others you meet face to face,
Y - is for you, in whatever you do, put Jesus first and spell Joy.

J - is for Jesus, for He has first place,
O - is for others you meet face to face,
Y - is for you, in whatever you do, put yourself last and spell Joy.

Lord bless,

Flora

 Thanks Flora!

  Your response above is filled with balance and wisdom, something we didn't always get from our Assm. days.

  My confusion re. "the self life" was something that produced a lot of harm in my life, and in the lives of others.  GG "spirituality" taught that "self" was evil: in the sense that my own person was somehow to be loathed.  Any personal aspirations that were not "to the glory of God" were to be "put to death."

   In ones inner life this meant you could not trust your own motives, desires, and reasoning because by definition your fallen condition disqualified these functions as unreliable.  Only pure thoughts and feelings that were completely sanctified via the the life "completely surrendered" would experience the life and light of God (anyone see in this ripe conditions for mind control, not to mention a nervous breakdown?).

  Normal human desires such as a need for human love, friendship, and other emotional needs were relegated to the "fleshly" category and had to be somehow rationalized by putting them into a "spiritualized" context in order to be realized.  As an example, a desire for marriage could never be just an honest human hunger for male-female companionship--- no, it had to be in the interest of "furthering the work of God" via "raising a godly seed", or some other such lofty goal.

  So what's the big harm about all of this?  It starts a kind of dishonest gaming of your own inner life that creates the kind of hypocrisy that the Pharisees got into where instead of a person being made whole by religion they are fractured and deeply damaged by it.

  God wants to rescue our humanity not destroy it: "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace----" not self hatred!  Now, we are to hate sin, but to have human hopes, desires, feelings, etc. this is not sinful. 

   How can these normal functions of the soul find healing after being damaged?   

   1.) Joy does start with Jesus!  But, this can be confused if I see this as trying to "make Jesus Lord of my life" vs. coming to Him, the meek and lowly one, who can give rest to my soul.  His total acceptance of my "self" is not just at salvation's inception, but all the way to the end!

  2.) Don't get down on your "self".    This natural feeling when we fail to meet our own expectations is more important than maybe you might think and has a very strong impact on the "O" in the word "JOY" that Flora mentioned.   A feeling that you are a failure, and kicking yourself over this fact, makes you a very unhappy person and hurts others around you.

         Those who come from a group that placed high expectations for perfect performance in their lives have a deep need to prove to themselves, and consequently to those around them, that they are very holy people who are far above the rest of humanity of which they share the planet with.  Boy, have I suffered from this deeply ingrained false holiness notion!     This creates an individual who is unable to be honest about their own failings, needs, and struggles who seals "self" off into their own little world (GG perfect example of this).

       Well, post is getting too long, so I will stop here.

                                                                                  God bless,  Mark C.