George is Rebuilding his house

[editor]

They don't need rocks lobbed from the rest of us. They need much prayer, only love, and heaps of leniency.


Wendy Hinman

I always wonder when people say that I smack of the worst Assembly behavior.  In my opinion, the worst of the Assembly was allowing one's conscience to be seared, and slandering those who spoke the truth.  This Assembly behavior is what allowed George to do what he did all those years.

If telling the truth means I am called a rock-lobber.....no problem.  I was excommunicated for the speaking up before.  

The fact is that if George's victims would say something it would make a diferrence.  Ask Rachel.  Do you think it was hard for her to say what she said?

It took courage and faith, and Rachel was not a willing participant in George's abuse, she was an innocent child.  She is a true victim, yet she had the courage to come forward, when others would not.  If she hadn't, George's women would still be attending worker's meetings!!

As for these others, while I fully recognize the horror, coercion and abuse that devastated and robbed them, the fact is that they are still repsonsible to some degree.

Read the passages in the Old Testament that talk about the different degrees of culpability if the woman "cries out," or not.

I am sorry this isn't popular, and I know this won't win me many friends among ex-assemblyites.  That's not why I'm here.

The fact remains, if we are going to complain about George still being out there, and say things like, "isn't someone going to stop him?" we must realize that those who can stop him aren't.

If they manage to rebuild their own smashed house, as you put it, but allow George to destroy another life by remaining silent, they are to be blamed, especially with the current climate, where their fear has been eliminated.

Brent

[delila]

Yes, it is hard to be called a liar, isn't it?  Perhaps we can just pause for a moment here and consider how painful that is.  YOu finally have the courage to say what you could never say because you knew no one would believe you and then...Liar Liar! is what you get in return.  Recently, I did some more confronting in the form of a letter to a former leading brother here in Estevan.  I'll post it

Dear Garnet and Margaret,

   I’ve put off this letter far too long.  There are some things I need to tell you.
I’m of a bad conscience holding this information back.  My concern is that the
mindset of George Geftakys is still infecting Estevan, dividing and wounding people.
Though I’ve been away from the assembly many years, I am still navigating my way
through the twisted teachings and sorting out, keeping what is true.

   Garnet, when we spoke and you said “If I’ve offended you in any way...” I said
no, you hadn’t.  I am not offended by you.  But there are others that I think you need
to speak to.  My sister, for example, who lived in your home, was devastated many
times by the overwhelming control, emotional and ‘spiritual’ bullying that happened
to her continually while in the assembly.  I know that you factor heavily into that
equation.  Though many ‘meant well’ because they were ‘only standing for us’ as they
believed, they did the devil’s work.  Instead of edifying, they tore down, shamed and
stepped on others.  This happened to Suzanne.  Do you remember?
   
   I know that we have selective memories, that there are many things we said or
did in the assembly that we saw through a filter, George’s perspective.  I encourage
you to take a good look at those acts you did in the Lord’s name and service and ask
yourself: was this abuse?  I am writing to you now because I think you can receive it.
I was encouraged by our phone conversation and I believe it would help both you, my
sister, and others, if we all did some soul searching. And by soul searching, I do not at
all mean what George and Betty gave: “If you are offended, then I’m sorry you choose
to see things that way.” or Mike’s take on an apology (slightly different but still not
taking ownership): “I’m sorry for being influenced by George”.  I’m talking about
really owning our own actions.  I believe this is truly healing for all those affected.

   I have come to the place in my life where I see just what I did to my sister,
Suzanne.  I shut my ears up to her simply because she did not conform to assembly
ways.  I did not listen to her, refused to consider what she had to say.  She cried alone.
I waited for her repentance, not seeing she had been wronged.  We told people that
because they left the assembly, they left the Lord.  What right did we have to say that?
When people buckled under the unreasonable pressures and bullying, we pushed them
out of our lives and wiped our hands, praying only for their ‘repentance’.  Have we
repented for what we did to them.  And me too, I held George’s assembly (that idol
that took the place of God and determined God’s will in my life) and it’s instruction,
over my love for my own sister.  I basically called her a liar.  When she sought
fellowship with God and his people and was continually crushed instead by the
assembly who pointed only to her ‘deficits’ as a Christian, she gave up.  She was
labeled ‘fallen away’ she was crippled, shunned, written off.  And that was the love of
God?  And I, thinking myself more spiritual because I turned my back on her, shut my
ears to her, added to her pain.  How was this the Love of Christ manifest?  How was
this spiritual.  Suzanne I use as an example.  We know how many others who were
treated just as shamefully.

   George’s teaching has done much to separate families and devastate
individuals.  He was a bully.  Mike Zach towed George’s line and so here in Estevan
there are casualties too, besides my sister.  I’ll name Cara and Brian Daae. How were
they loved, built up, encouraged?  Or were they instead put down, blamed, shamed?
Is your conscience at all pricked? No, sure, according to George, if they’d only
submitted they’d have been fine.  But, as I learned the hard way, George wanted us
not just submitting to God, but to George, to absolute control to George and his mind,
not God’s love.  George, who set himself in the place of God, our barrier, anti-Christ
is still circulating in our veins.  George taught us to point at darkness and cruelty and
call it ‘Standing for the Lord’, to call it: light. You can’t spend that many hours
listening to tape ministry and to one another spouting George’s understanding and
claim, as some dare to claim: we weren’t influenced all that much by George here.
That is blindness. And as George would have advised, many people stay off the
assembly reflections website because they yet hold unquestioned allegiance to George
and his assembly machine.  Or perhaps, leaders we respected tell us to stay off that
site because there, they too are shown in all their false righteousness, and they’d
rather that we not see it.  I challenge that kind of thinking.  My story, which you have
never heard, is told on the website. You have never heard it, because when I tried to
come back to the assembly, I knew you would never receive it.  So I did not tell it.
Now, it’s posted, if you can receive it.  It’s the truth.  I’ve posted it for all to read,
shameful as it is.  I hide nothing.
   So many now accept that ‘George fell’ but have not yet questioned what
George taught.  I have sorted out a few things in that regard.  I don’t claim to know
very much, but I know this much: there is a strong tendency among many assembly
sympathizers to conclude: yes, perhaps George sinned (a little) but all that he taught is
still valuable.  There hasn’t been a halt and consider what exactly George taught.
How many are still implementing his teachings in their own lives?  How dangerous
this is.  George viewed all the world through a little pinhole and told us to do the
same.  We were not to consider ‘outside’ opinions.  We were to stay off the Internet
because (perhaps since George didn’t post there) it was probably all lies, we were
told.  The devil’s work.  But I challenge this kind of thinking.  After all, whose work
was George doing?  A veil has been separating good intentioned Christians from
God’s love and understanding for a terribly long time.  Now that George is gone, it all
depends on what side of the veil you’re on, or how much of the veil you’ve
swallowed, or how much permanent damage has been done to your perception, your
‘heavenly vision’ as George liked to put it.  What do you think his ‘heavenly vision’
really was?  The veil is of the mind.  The darkness and deceit is a way of thinking.
Please challenge George’s thinking in your own mind.
    Also, I have concluded, for those who gained some sense of status from
George’s hierarchy, i.e.: leadership position, it is much harder to really see how
damaging George’s teachings are.  Those who were workers, who had so many
opportunities already to have their consciences seared, are especially reluctant to
relinquish the teachings.  But the teachings may be summarized in this: the
annihilation of the individual, the erasure of the personality, replaced with assembly
speak, brain shut off, robotics.  Question nothing. George laid a claim to godliness but
denied the power of God, indeed, denied God’s spirit an opportunity to work.  Instead,
the assembly leaders established their own power, over others.  And to consider that
this may be repeated in Estevan is very sad to me.
   I am at peace with God, with my own conscience.  I make no great claims to
be anything spiritual.  I do not tell great stories as George did about how demon
possessed people shrank before him or how godly his children were, indeed in his
own family, when unspeakable abuse went on right under his own nose, the helpless
were told to submit to it.  The abused were told that it was because of their own sins
that their abusers were driven by God to punish them.   We deny the truth because we
do not wish to hear it, and we remain dirty ourselves. Do you see this?
    I am searching the scriptures now for what God says, and seeing that George
twisted scripture for his own gain.  I just believe God.  I just trust that God will heal
those maimed and wounded by the abusive structure George established.  Please
consider what I have written.   If you should like to discuss it, my email is
crocusqueen@hotmail.com.  If you wish to ignore me, or take offense at what I’ve
written, please consider that those who love God’s law (which is love) have great
peace and nothing shall offend them.  I am in love with that law, its unconditional
kindness to me.  And please believe me when I say, that toward both of you I extend
that same unconditional kindness.  Let us wash our hands.  Many can heal when we
acknowledge our part in the wounds that have been inflicted.  Perhaps the confessor
heals most.


May God heal you,


Delila


 - we don’t know what we shall be
 but we know we shall be like him
 for we shall see him as he is



-there is a crack, a crack in everything
that’s how the light gets in
that’s how the light gets in
that’s how the light gets in (L. Cohen)

[Peacefulg]

I hate to see this come to the head that it is, but if people are going to be put in the situation that Kimberly is about to face then so be it.

How are these people "victims"?  It is the countless hundreds that were allowed to stay and be stumbled by some of the teaching of this ministry that are victims.  Ask yourself would you haved stayed in a place if it was know that the "leader" was having sexual relations with multiple women?

Brent is right these women have some fault in this whole matter.  It does not take a seasoned Christian to know that the bible say a TON about sexual acts and who and who should not do them.  Amazing that some of you who would hide and stand behind these women for not coming foward and admitting their sin are the same that took not only Clinton but Monica to task as well for her part.

Having had my Mom be in the same position as these women, but not givng, and also letting others know, you can see why I do not have much respect for what they did not do in coming forward at least, if not say NO and coming forward.

Lord Bless,
G

[Scott McCumber]

The fact that these women kept silent all those years allowed George to abuse other women, and attract zealous but misguided followers who gave him cash.  If people are going to complain that "someone needs to do something," but do nothing about it themselves then they deserve it.

The women George had sex with could put him away.  Probably not legally, because they were consenting to some degree, but certainly they could put a stop to his ever ministering again.

In the existing Assemblies, the "story" is that there was only one instance, about 15 years ago, and that it was no big deal, and that George repented and made it right with the sister.  This is a lie, and these women, by telling the truth could deliver the fools who still serve in George's house in SF and Sacramento.
Brent

Brent is correct. I remember in the very first email I ever sent to him in Dec of 2002 after discovering this website, I warned Brent that the current leadership crisis in the Assembly was not the first.

I detailed some of the things that happened in the Midwest in the 80's and reminded him of the time Steve Irons and other left. I said, "George and his cronies will hunker down and begin the long process of rebuilding."

Brent's response was actually skeptical at the time. He expected the floodgates to open and the Assembly to be totally destroyed.

While it certainly took a huge hit, the Assembly is alive and well and will continue to grow. That is because the women who admitted to their adultery with George did so privately. This allowed George to concoct an alternate tale. If they had come forward publicly he would not have been able to do this.

Face it, this should have ended 30 years ago. The first woman he was with could have ended it. And the second. And the third.

All the brothers (Leading, Worker, Doorkeepers, and otherwise) who knew of David G's abuse over the past 30 years could have ended it or at least started the ball rolling.

Just think about that. Think about all the people who have been hurt, abused, taken advantage of and misguided over the last 30 years. Why? BECAUSE NO ONE SPOKE UP WHEN THEY HAD THE CHANCE.

If I had something to say that could bring down this ministry and I did not say it, then IMO I would be somewhat responsible for the people who are going to be abused by it in the future.

A BIG difference between now and then is that there are now those who have gone before. Judy and Rachel broke the Code of Silence. Being the second or third person to speak out does not take half the courage it takes to be the first to speak out. No one needs to fear being shunned or abused by GG or the leadership.

I'm not saying it's an easy thing or that I even have any idea how difficult it is. But it doesn't matter.

What happens in 10 years when someone who is abused by San Francisco leadership is screaming in pain, "Why didn't someone do something!"

What if you're only answer to that is, "Sorry, but it would have caused me grief and pain to stand up. Guess you'll just have to deal with it like the rest of us."

Scott

[Peacefulg]

Soctt, are you trying to say that the watch people on the towers did not warn the city and therefore the blood/damage is upon them as well?

Cheers,
G

[editor]

Soctt, are you trying to say that the watch people on the towers did not warn the city and therefore the blood/damage is upon them as well?

Cheers,
G

Yes!  I think all of us know this passage, but so many ex-assembly people still see themselves as being holy and enlightened.  This false perception of who they are and what they were involved in leads them to believe that somehow "mercy and understanding," should be shown to the leaders, and that the women who committed immorality with George should be excused from having to say or do anything.

Nonsense!  This is false, and totally wrong.

Let's put it this way.  I committed immorality with my girlfriend, now my wife.  I came forward, confessed it to the "brothers," and then Suzie and I stood up in a prayer meeting and confessed it to the whole Assembly, under the guidance of Tim Geftakys, Keith Walker and Jeff Lehmkuhl.  We were embarassed, but we were ashamed that we had tarnished the "testimony."

Well, look who has tarnished the testimony now, and notice how they keep totally silent about it.  Lehmkuhl has been attending "Seminars," with SF and Sacramento.  He is now in with Testa.  I may have more to say about him in the future.

Yes, they are rebuilding, and the women who willingly participatedin sexual immorality with George, along with Judy (a different matter) are in a position to stop him.  One of them told me that they reason she didn't do anything was because it was too painful to admit her own immorality!

I guess that fact that another woman was seduced and abused as a result of her silence is no big deal.  Is the other victim's pain not that important?

It's like this:

If my wife sees an OB/GYN, and the guy abuses her (totally rhetorical here folks) and she continues to go back to him, refers her friends, and says nothing....what kind of person is she?  Maybe she doesn't think it's too big of a deal, but many women would be hurt by being sexually abused by their doctor.  

In the case of The Assembly,  George didn't drug these women, or chain them up.  He manipulated and seduced them in a devilish manner.  They were willing victims of abuse.  He bears by far the most blame, but they are still responsible, because they didn't cry out.  That's what the Bible says folks.  I didn't write it.  Did you all catch that, I used the word "willing," and the word "victim."  

Worse yet,  they sat in his stupid seminars and said "Amen," for years, and taught other young women to comply with the ministry, etc.  They knew the truth, but played along that George was The Lord's Servant.  

I don't care if they don't like me, and I don't care in the least if recently ex-assembly leaders accuse me of having "the worst Assembly behavior."  I submit that their moral and spiritual compass is totally broken.  What did they do except walk out when the building began to shake?

Seriously, this thinking is proof that not only have many people not "moved on," but they are actually going back, whether they care to admit it or not.

If you knew something was wrong, like theft, adultery, physical abuse, etc....and did nothing, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE AND CULPABLE.

It's a bitter pill, but you reap what you sow.

Brent

[Mark C.]

Hello Everyone!

   Please pardon me for jumping into this discussion, as I have not been involved on the BB for about a week, and may not fully understand the context of this discussion.
    This debate is very important for the former members of the Assembly, IMHO.
  There are those who constantly tell us that we need to "move on" and to "forgive" those who managed the abusive Assembly system.  These folks don't deny the abuses of the Assembly, but seek to dissuade active discovery of culpability of past unrepentant leaders.  One of their arguments is that "vengeance belongs to the Lord" and that we humans are unable to see into their hearts' and to judge motives.
   While both of the above assertions are undoubtedly true (that God will judge them and that we don't know their true motives) we are told to carefully "watch" and "judge" behavior and to make an open stand against evil.  
    This pursuit of truthfulness is the only way to be clear before God, and with one another, and as such is essential for the blessing of all concerned!
     Recently I received a phone call from a former leader in the Valley Assembly who said he wished to apologize for a couple of things he did when I was shown the door.  I tried to engage him in a discussion about his part in the abuses of the Valley assembly and he simply ignored these comments.  I followed up with an e-mail, and when he did not respond I tried to send another and discovered that he blocked any messages from me!
     Though I don't know Andrew Gunther's heart ( I feel free in sharing his name now, as he has refused my entreaties) I can judge his behavior, and as Mt. 18:17 states, I can declare him to be clearly out of the will of God.  Though I am to forgive my brother when he sins against me the above passage lays down conditons to bring about restoration between us; willingness to listen to the complaints of those offended and to acknowledge the wrong is essential to be clear before God and Brethren!
   I know very little about "GG's women", but can understand something of the dynamics that would allow them to stay silent and "willing", in re. to GG's use of them.  With great shame I can admit to raising faint protests against the coverup of a child molestation in the Assembly !  When Tim McCarthy said, "after all any of us could have done it", all I could do was say "amen", when Mitch Schuster said to Tim, "speak for yourself Brother."
   I think their is a big difference between those of us who feel shame for our Assembly days failures vs. those who still refuse to face their past openly, honestly, and thoroughly and that we need to make a difference in how we treat these two different groups.  
    I think of the Woman taken in adultery (JN 8 ) and the lack of condemnation that Jesus gave to her.  It was the accusers who left one by one as Jesus wrote on the ground.  He seemed to understand, while she did sin and that she was told not to do it again, that this woman was a victim of a distorted view of how God views justice. (please understand that I don't think that Brent falls into the category of the Pharisees above.)
  The fact these "Women" came forward at all is a behavior that certainly must be viewed as positive.  Since I know little of these details I can not make a judgment, nor can we be assured if they publically shared all the details that this would effect those still following GG personally, or the system that he created.  These folks are in deep denial and have rejected any entreaties to consider their ways.
   Though we all share some responsibility for our Assembly involvement, and can not claim total victimization, it is important to make a difference between those on the path to clarity and those unwillingly to face the light.  It might be helpful for these women to get some therapy from a doctor who has a solid foundation in the Christian faith.  Jesus did not demand that the "Woman caught in adultery" share all the sordid details, and even was discreet in convicting the consciences of her accusers by stooping down to write them in the dirt so that only the individuals could see what was written.
   Jesus had compassion on this woman and recognized that she was in part a victim.  I think we need to recognize that "GG's women" were also victims and need to be treated as such.  Facing the truth for them is a very difficult and painful pursuit and emotionally it may be impossible for them to do more than they have already done.  Courage to act can only come when we are able to help former victims of the Assembly overcome their self doubt.  These Women have not been out that long and recovery for them is a process that will take some time and probably some professional help.
                                 God Bless,  Mark C.    

[wmathews]

I thought it would be helpful to look at an excerpt of an article Brent submitted:
Honoring the Truth-teller, part 2
By Dr. Roger W. Sapp

Values Produce Predictable Behavior
Prior to 1993, I was an active duty Army Chaplain.  During that season
in my life, I taught leadership skills to officers and non-commissioned
officers in leadership retreats as a part of my ministry.  I often used
management games to teach these leaders about leadership.  In one
management game called "Powerplay", a scenario is created where these
leaders were arbitrarily divided into groups by virtue of winning in a
trading scenario.  The winning group is then given authority over the
other groups.  The winning group is given the right to make the rules
for future trading and to dictate these rules to the other groups.
Without exception, the group that has the authority always begins to
make rules to keep its authority and to benefit it as a group in
trading.  Given enough time the winning group will begin to clearly
abuse the other groups.  This group will justify its behavior on the
basis of winning the earlier portion of the game and by virtue of having
the authority.

Reactions of Different Abused Groups
In those retreats where non-commissioned officers (sergeants) were  
involved, the sergeants would allow themselves to be abused.  Their  
overriding value was loyalty to the authority no matter what transpired or  
how unfairly they were treated.  They were unhappy and grumbled  
among themselves during the abuse but did not do anything productive to  
deal with it.  They offered no feedback, no confrontation, and no truth  
from their perspective to the abusive group of sergeants.  This was  
characteristic of nearly all the sergeants that I played this game with.  
This revealed that their values were highly loyal but truthfulness was weak as a value. (Of course, there were a few exceptional sergeants that would  
have been better officers by nature.) The reactions of the officers in the  
officer leadership retreats were entirely different.  As the group of  
officers who abused them became more abusive, the officers became  
increasingly active and alert to their responsibility to deal with the unfair
situation.  They offered feedback that was largely ignored.  They devised  
strikes; in other words, they withdrew and would not cooperate with the  
abusive authority.  They often tried to continue to confront the abusive  
group.  They tried to negotiate a more just situation. In nearly all cases,  
the group in authority would become increasingly authoritarian and  
created more rules strictly for their own benefit and to keep the rebels in  
line.  The abusive group would often say that the other officer groups  
were not playing fair when they rebelled, withdrew or failed to cooperate.  
In other words, the group with the authority became blind to their abuse  
and blamed the abused groups for withdrawing and not wanting to play  
the game anymore.  

Not Valuing Truth Results in Blindness
Blindness is characteristic of organizations and leaders that do not value  
truthfulness in their relationships.  This is because truth telling has been
stifled in a loyalty-based organizations or individuals.  Because there is  
no honest feedback, they will often be blind to their abusive behavior and  
honestly wonder why others are reacting.  There will be no one to tell  
them that it is wrong to shift the blame for difficulties in the relationships
to the victims of their abusive behavior. The value of truth is what keeps a local church or any organization from becoming like a cult.  Honoring the  
truth-teller is a characteristic of godly relationships.  Dishonoring the  
truth-teller is a characteristic of cults. Cultic behavior, which always  
includes blindness, will result from an overemphasis of loyalty above the  
truth.  Leaders must understand that their own desire for loyalty may  
overcome truthfulness in their subordinates.  They must actively cultivate  
truthfulness along with loyalty in their subordinates.  

Different Values and Expectations
This game also revealed that different kinds of people have different  
values and expectations.  Commissioned Officers are taught in the  
military that proper submission means that they will speak to the superior  
officer with courage and candor (truthfulness) about organizational  
problems.  Officers who will not confront their commander when  
necessary are poor excuses for leaders. Commanders who will not hear  
the honest, truthful input of their subordinates without penalty are poor  
commanders.  The officer type of leader expects to be treated well by  
other leaders.  He expects his input to be valued and genuinely  
considered.  When the behavior of an organization and its primary  
leaders do not match the officer type leader’s values, he will withdraw or  
try negotiation.  If the negotiation fails, he will leave the organization and
move on, similar to an officer resigning his commission.  The officer type  
of leader will want to fix the organization’s larger problems and will not  
ordinarily be silent about them. If the organizational values lean too far to
loyalty and not enough on truthfulness, this type of leader will often be  
seen as not being a team player and be penalized by being privately  
labeled as such.  As a result the organization may lose this valuable  
leader as he discovers the truth of how the organization actually sees  
him.  The sergeant type of leader will remain loyal to a fault.  He will  
adjust to the problems and not necessary ever speak truthfully to the  
organization.  There is nothing wrong with this type of person; in fact,  
they are greatly needed in all organizations. However, in unhealthy  
organizations, the sergeant type of leader is valued above the officer type  
of leader.  The officer type of person can help an organization to deal  
with its problems and therefore grow.  If an organization creates an  
atmosphere for genuine honesty and truthfulness, it will attract many of  
the officer types of persons and will be able to keep them.  It will not lose
its sergeant types either. In fact, the sergeant type of leader will be much
happier since problems will be dealt with.  Loyal and truthful leaders will  
ensure that the Church will be prepared to meet the One who declared  
Himself to be the way, the truth, and the life.  

The final question is: Are you a sergeant or an officer?

[Suzie Trockman]

Hi Mark,

While I agree with your post, I wonder if you read our private e-mails from one of the women, you would have written the same post.  The responce of the "women caught in adultery" is glaringly different from this woman, and I believe this is a different context altogether.

When she asked,"Why won't anyone speak for me?"  Brent kindly asked her to step up.  She refused because she didn't want to admit her own "sexual immorality".   I still believe Brent's previous post about the ob/gyn analogy is a better picture than "the woman caught in adultery."

[Mark C.]

Hi Suzie  

  I was a little hesitant to post at all because I am not aware of any details regarding "GG victimized women."
   The reason I did post was because of the continual discussion of excultists' concerning the thought of "victimization vs. my personal responsibility while in the group."
  How much "the Woman caught in adultery" accurately reflects the Assembly situation I don't know, but the principle that Jesus teaches in John 8 re. adultery might have some applications.  This woman did not "go public" but was hauled into the spotlight by the Pharisees and Jesus treated this woman with kindness and still used the situation to point to the greater evil of the Pharisaical religious system that "outed" this adulterer.
  My point is that we should make a difference, as Jesus did, in how we treat sinners; we must realize some sin is worse then other kinds and while we were all in the Assembly, and to some degree were involved in that evil, some are more culpable then others.  In other words, there are deceived and those that deceive; there are true believers and there those who used their positions to control innocent followers.  That line was not hard and fast and we crossed over from side to side, but at some point some of us saw it for what it was, or made the decision to stay with the Assembly and GG.  
   These women were victimized and since they were willing to some degree they undoubtedly are a confused psychological mess right now.  They are feeling great shame right now, (and here it differs from being a passive victim of abuse, as is the MD example) and not at all capable of public heroism.
 We need to honestly face our time in the Assembly, but we may have to do it in private therapy first.  Why was I willing to let GG have his way with me?  How could I continue in this group and believe that I was following God after this experience?  What do I think of my relationship with God now?  What do I think that He thinks of me now?  
   By making these women feel that the way to get present day followers of GG to reject GG and his teaching is for them to make their stories public I think is a mistaken notion.  Any followers of GG at this point are passed reasonable attempts to persuade them otherwise.  God himself, as Jesus, came to Earth and confronted those in religious darkness and they "stopped their ears and sought to kill Him!"  I think even if Jesus Himself visited the defenders of GG and his Assembly they would reject his entreaty.  Those that did respond at Brent's raising up of the website were straddling the line already and were able to hear, and those who continue to reject an honest evaulation of their past will get harder and harder.
   There may come a time when these women might feel strong enough to come forward and do this, but I am against trying to apply pressure to get them to do this if they don't feel able to.  We are not so different from these women as we willinginly allowed our spiritual abuse and they should know that God wants to lift the shame from them.
                                           God Bless,   Mark C.    

[Scott McCumber]

  There may come a time when these women might feel strong enough to come forward and do this, but I am against trying to apply pressure to get them to do this if they don't feel able to.  
                                           God Bless,   Mark C.    

Hi, Mark,

I agree with that part. Just because I believe these women should come forward, doesn't mean I think we can or should make/force/coerce/pressure them to.

Nor should they think (or care) that I judge them harshly if they are not ready. Each of these individuals has their own unique situation and I would not presume to believe that I have any understanding of what they have gone through and are going through now.

I bet, however, that facing and dealing with this situation head-on would help them immensely. Confess it. Get it off your chest. Relieve yourself of your responsiblity to speak up. I would think that that would make it much easier to go forward with your life.

But that's just me and they will ultimately have to make their decision and live with it either way, just like everybody else.

S

[editor]

I think many of you are still missing the point.

If you look back to when this thread started, a person wrote

My question is this...

What are the objectives?  Is the only objective to warn people about George via newspaper ads and email to other churches?  I think that is way to soft and would only do good for a limited time.  In order to stop this monster, I think he needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.  For crying out loud, this guy and his sons have illegally mishandled and misappopriated funds for years now and more than likely have cheated horifically on their taxes.  

Others have said how terrible it is that George is preaching in Riverside, and that Sacramento and San Francisco are having "seminars,"----I don't know if George was there.

Well, I agree.  It is terrible.  However, if people just sit around and complain and never do anything about it, they have no right to complain at all.  

Rachel told her story and it had a huge impact.  She felt responsible because she didn't want others to grow up with the pain and misery that she endured, and she knew full well that the kids behind her in the gathering were suffering the same way she did.  She could no longer stifle the truth in her mind and allow people to worship her father and grandfather under guise of worshipping God.

So, she did something.  She broke the Code of Silence and told the truth out loud.  It was a nuclear bomb.

The "women," the ones that are alluded to in George's excommunication letter, were abused as badly, and probably worse than Rachel.  However, the difference is that Rachel suffered as a dependant minor child, while these women suffered as adults.  

As a man, I am warned to be careful that I don't become enticed by an adulterous woman.  Should I become slightly drunk, at a Chiropractic Seminar, and find a connection with a female doctor there, who entices me to sin,  we are both responsible...at least that's how I see it.  (suzie accompanies me to my seminars)

George is disgusting in that he took people with pure motives and manipulated and brainwashed them into "serving" him.  Afterall, didn't David, King of Israel have weaknesses?  David was a man after God's heart.  How similiar he is to Brother George!  George is the Lord's Servant, afterall, he's not perfect.....right?

The man should be in jail, and the people that could put him there would have an extremely hard time doing so for several reasons.  Certainly, the defense would argue that since the relationship was ongoing for several years IT WAS CONSENSUAL!  There are other legal difficulties as well.  

So, if they can't put him in Jail,  it is my firm opinion that they at least warn others who might fill their shoes in the future.  Sadly, this is exactly what happened.  One woman would leave, or move to another Assembly, or marry, and a new one would come along, with no inkling of what they were in store for.

If these women want to keep silent, that is their perogative.  However, they shouldn't complain about George still preaching and say,  "Isn't someone going to do something?"

The man was put out for adultery!  That takes two, as Jesus pointed out.  The Pharisees wanted to stone the woman, but ignored doing any justice on the man, because they were pharisees,  blind followers of blind guides.

In the Assembly, everyone wants to see justice done on George, but somehow we think that the other party is guiltless and should be given spiritual "there-there's".  

Well I'm sorry, the key to George's justice lies with the other half of the excommunication letter.  

To quote Wayne Mathews below,  I am an officer type.  I will never, ever keep silent about something important like this, and I won't mince words about the truth either.

I don't care if it makes people uncomfortable.  In fact, it should do exactly that.  Guess what?  If George thought that one of these women agreed with me he would be the one who was supremely uncomfortable.  Instead,  people who were saying "Amen, Praise the Lord" to George's preaching 18 months ago are trying to tell me what is Godly!

I mock them and laugh at them!  Yes, I also love them, which is precisely why I am willing to speak up.

Feel free to condemn me and berate me.  Just know that I wear it as a badge of honor in this matter.  

Have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

Brent

[delila]

I'm I getting this?

If.... then.....

If these women and everyone who knows about abuse in the assembly comes forward and stands by the truth (providing that all consciences are still ticking)

Then... George can finally be dethroned and Christ can have his place, captives free, etc. etc.

I get the notion that in all this commotion we think we can free people.  How many times in the assembly, refering to the gospel, did I hear: "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

Having been once so in love with the fairy tale of the assembly, I know only too well how my own conscience was 'buggered'.  We can jump up and down and call on who ever we want to do 'the right thing' but that changes nothing.  There was no website when I left.  And though I found much liberty in the truths sorted here, it wasn't a single person here who set me free.  It was God.  And if any part of George's house is yet standing a year from now... it will be because God hasn't yet decided to completely crush it.  There are those within assembly gates with consciences too 'buggered' to get out.  Those also, still in love with the fairy tale George twisted the bible to preach... who are blindly read.  And Brent, though this does a number on your blood pressure.... God is still in control.  I believe that, though I see assembly wrongs all around me that are not yet righted.  God is in control.
delila

[M2]

I understood Brent's original point to be that though many say that GG and his machine need to be stopped, they are too cowardly and lazy to do anything about it.

Mark, I wonder at the woman caught in adultery, whom the Lord Jesus let off with 'go and sin no more'.  Would she have willingly told her story to right a wrong that continues to keep some GeftakysServants in bondage?  Everybody knew who she was anyway?  The woman who is unwilling to say so may not have truly repented from her unrighteous and unlawful deed(s).  But I am not one to pressure anyone to do something they do not want to do, however, why would they not want to.  Also, there are many ex-LBs and ex-wannabees who have conveniently slipped out of the picture and have not made any effort to right the wrongs they 'faithfully' perpetrated while serving Geftakys.

On the other hand, very few who remain assembly-sympathetic at this point are victims, but rather they are so by their own choice.  They have had over 1 year to search and honestly inquire; they have had people attempting to dialogue with them on the matter, but they turn a deaf ear.  They are content to remain in their fog of deception and their friendships and their pride (unwilling to admit that they were wrong). They have accumulated for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires(2Tim 4:3).  Like Delila posted earlier, they have said things like 'some things were wrong' but have not owned their sin and confessed it.

So, even if the adulterous women enlightened those who remain assembly-sympathetic, would they, the assembly-sympathisers finally see it, or would they say yeah but... that was then and this is now. ??  I had a similar experience on another matter recently, and was amazed at the unwillingness of individuals to face the reality of the 'truth of the matter'.  I have some understanding, after that experience, why the Geftakys ministry continued as long as it did, and why people continue to remain asleep long after they have received their 'wake-up' call.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[Mark C.]

 Brent and Others gathered around this topic!

   Brent, you know much more about these Women than I do, and as Scott said, it could be very helpful to them if they did just bring their whole situation out into the light.  Not knowing them or their story prevents me from knowing if they are able to take on such a task as yet.  What I'm concerned about is "outing" them before they are ready to make that decison on their own.
  It is difficult for us to understand how an abuser can control someone for so many years without them just saying, "I've had enough" and then just leave the situation.  How can we understand one of these women letting GG have his way with them and just continuing on "faithful" to the code of silence in support of GG as God's servant?!  It takes a great deal of brainwashing to manipulate someone into accepting trysts with GG on Saturday evening and saying amen to his preaching on Sunday!
  Mind control is a very real thing and it does very real damage to our psyche.  It has the ability to take some very sincere and normal people and turn them into followers of David Koresh, et al.  We can say that only the weak minded are suceptible to this kind of manipulation, but it is more likely an emotional need that sets the stage for this kind of cultish abuse.  
   These women were deceived and seduced by GG to willingly accept his advances, but it does not necessarily mean that it was "consenual".  It took years of GG and Betty calling evil good and good evil to condition these women to accept GG the philanderer as still God's servant.
   On another BB I was on I had some communication with former members of a group from hell called The children of God.  This group practiced molestation of children at the direction of the head honcho, Moses David, in the name of God!! These former members talked about how they were able to justify this activity and to defend it from the Bible.  They so believed that God had called this great evil monster to lead them that they trusted it was God's direction.  How can the conscience be so overpowered and silenced in an individual that they believe doing evil is serving God?!
   Imagine trying to bring such an individual back to any belief in God, and a healthy normal life!  Once they leave they feel like they are defective in some kind of way and that there is no escape from the pain and confusion that they feel.  These former cult members were taken captive, in an psychological sense, and through fear of disobeying God gave their leaders control over their lives.  Sound familar?
  Since I know nothing of these Assembly women I can only guess that they need to see that God is very angry with GG for his stumbling of these women and that He, as with the woman caught in adultery, is not condemning them.  It would be very valuable to others if they could come on the BB and tell us how GG was able to bring them to the point that he did.  Rachel was able to tell her story when she realized that she was in the right and her Dad and the Assembly were wrong.  When I first left I cowered in fear and would never have said "negative" things about the brethren.  There were those who gently strengthened me so that I was able to get my feet again and to speak out against the Assembly.
   It is good to speak the truth loudly, but we can only do that with a strong conscience and a healthy view of ourselves as well.  This will take time for those who have been brainwashed by G.G. and have compromised their own moral compass as a result.  The enemy here is not GG's victims but GG and his defenders.
                                      God Bless,   Mark C,