George is Rebuilding his house

[outdeep]

I gather from this discussion, that you agree that the assembly is an 'evil' place.

First, I really don't like the word evil as it is used today.  We live in a culture where most see Adolf Hitler and Saddum Hussin as evil, but also use the word to apply to President Bush and Jerry Fallwell.  The word has been dumbed down to basically apply to "anyone who is doing something that I think is wrong or may be hurtful."

Evil, in my book, is doing something undenyably unlawful (by a clear and undisputed standard of law) and denying that it is wrong.  Willful adultry on George's part and denial is evil.  Wife abuse and denial of responsibility is evil.

On the other hand, when we visit California this summer, we might drop in on a Wednesday Bible Study in Fullerton to see old friends.  The meeting is not an evil place, per se.  It's a Bible Study.  They have some wrong ideas (just like Democrats feel Bush has wrong ideas about the war and vice versa, but this does not make their national conventions evil).  Having a wrong premise and acting upon it does not make one evil.

Of what I have heard on this board, I would gather that there are possibly individuals who fit this description of evil in that they deny undeniable truth, promote lawlessness, and resist the self-evident truths of God for their own personal gain.  I have no idea who they are because I receive very little specific information about individuals from where I sit in North Carolina.   But, I have no basis to make an across-the-board judgement about everyone who is still meeting.

[M2]

Dave,

If it is a matter of terminology, then let's just say that since the assembly is a spiritually unhealthy environment I associated it with 'evil'.  For that reason, I am concerned for those that remain "in".  There is still an active assembly in my locality, and I sometimes see some of these ones.  They still have many of the same unhealthy attitudes of control, code of silence etc.

I have gotten on with my life without the assembly, but I do wonder what it will take to break through to those who are still in bondage.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[Joe Sperling]

Marcia---

Waking up from deception is like falling headlong into ice-water. You're walking along, in your self-imposed deception....dum dee dum, dum dee dum...then you get whacked on the back of the head, and <splash>
WHOA!!!! THAT'S COLD!!!! And you come to the realization that you've been duped the whole time. Later you're thankful someone whacked you on the back of the head and you fell into that frigid water.
Just like those penguins.

Joe

[outdeep]

Marcia,

I do indeed see the point you are making.  I apologize for coming across reactive about the definition of "evil".  It is a sore spot with me.  As this is an election year, I have to endure people that I admire being likened to Adolf Hitler and Saddum Hussain by angry folks who just don't happen to like their policies.  

Nevertheless, I don't want to distract from your good point - a genuine burden and care for lifetime friends still in the Assembly.

-Dave

P.S.:  I enjoyed the penguines as well who, I believe, has always been a type of the flesh battling against those who want to make progress in their Christian life.

[M2]

Waking up from deception is like falling headlong into ice-water. You're walking along, in your self-imposed deception....dum dee dum, dum dee dum...then you get whacked on the back of the head, and <splash>
WHOA!!!! THAT'S COLD!!!! And you come to the realization that you've been duped the whole time. Later you're thankful someone whacked you on the back of the head and you fell into that frigid water.
Just like those penguins.

'Shock treatment' seems to be the only effective method to break through the fog of deception. Eh??

Marcia,

I do indeed see the point you are making.  I apologize for coming across reactive about the definition of "evil".  It is a sore spot with me.  As this is an election year, I have to endure people that I admire being likened to Adolf Hitler and Saddum Hussain by angry folks who just don't happen to like their policies.  

Nevertheless, I don't want to distract from your good point - a genuine burden and care for lifetime friends still in the Assembly.

-Dave

P.S.:  I enjoyed the penguines as well who, I believe, has always been a type of the flesh battling against those who want to make progress in their Christian life.

I knew there was a spiritual significance to those penguins, and you brothers have enlightened me.

Here's another, especially for Joe and Verne: Penguins are black and white.

Marcia

[delila]

Marcia:
There is not an active assembly in my locale but there are a few who'd love to start one.  That scares me too.  Regardless of the fact that gg nolonger controls the assembly, the mind he taught still controls many minds here.  I warned another church today who'd offered an assembly member a bible study or some other venue.  They said they'd already locked heads with some serious doctrine discussions.
Now, on the bright side: There is another sister here I had a wonderful visit with yesterday.  You know who.  She is a 'type of judy' if we want to use gg lingo.  And she's free and we had the first honest discussion we've ever had, the first discussion we never had to censor ourselves for.  And it was the most wonderful conversation I've ever had in my life.  So Brent: cheers for the truth!  The truth is glorious.  More later

delila

[Kimberley Tobin]

Delila:

I'm so glad to see you participating here again.  The road to recovery is a circuitous route.  I am glad to see you having some positive experiences.  There will probably also be some disappointing, even heartbreaking ones.  Don't be deprived of seeking a place of healing and restoration.

[H]

A few thoughts regarding the use of the word "evil" (cf. Dave's post yesterday). In the sermon on the mount, the Lord Jesus Christ said "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" (Mat. 7:11)  Seems to me that He was saying that ALL sinful human beings are evil. He also said "No one is good but One, that is, God." (Mat. 19:17). We may not all DO as much evil as Hitler, etc., but we all ARE evil nonetheless. As the Apostle Paul said, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells" (Rom. 7:18). "For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive?" (I Cor. 4:7). "There but for the grace of God ..."

[delila]

Kimberly,
There's enough to be sad about if a person wants to be sad.  True.  
But - here's the rub: really being free, I can't help see the plus side of this.  The assembly never set me free so I wasn't 'free indeed' - the opposite was an obvious goal.  I went for 'counsel' over the stupidest things, and if I didn't, was stepped on later.  
Now, no one screens my calls, no pope stands in God's place approving or condemning me.  I'm learning not to do that to myself either.  That's the truth

delila

[Kimberley Tobin]

Delila,

YEAH !!!!!

[outdeep]

A few thoughts regarding the use of the word "evil" (cf. Dave's post yesterday). In the sermon on the mount, the Lord Jesus Christ said "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" (Mat. 7:11)  Seems to me that He was saying that ALL sinful human beings are evil. He also said "No one is good but One, that is, God." (Mat. 19:17). We may not all DO as much evil as Hitler, etc., but we all ARE evil nonetheless. As the Apostle Paul said, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells" (Rom. 7:18). "For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive?" (I Cor. 4:7). "There but for the grace of God ..."

While I would agree that your point is sound theology in light of our standing before God, it is not very useful for the question at hand - deciding when a person's unrestrained behavior reaches the point that we take decisive action against them.  If your and my behavior is just as evil as George Geftaky's, what right do we have to condemn his actions on this website?  On what basis can we say that David Geftakys did anything worse that us if we are just as evil as he?  Why should the leading brothers step down since we are just as evil as they might be?  And who would replace the leading brothers because these brothers are evil, too.  Further, all the pastors in all the other churches are evil, so what point is there in leaving the Assembly to attend these other churches?

The point is, there is a sense in which we use the term evil to describe the sinful nature of all mankind as they relate to God's holy standard.  On the other hand, there is a sense in which we use the word to quantify someone's behavior.  It is in this latter sense that we say that Saddum Hussain is evil and Mr. Rogers is not.

[Joe Sperling]

Dave---

Thanks for that post. I have heard the logic you describe in your post a lot: "George sinned. Were all sinners. What George did was very wrong. But we are all capable of having done the same wrong. Since we are all capable of having done this, why do you judge him?" In effect---cut him a break will ya? Yes--we are all capable of great evil. But we are not all leaders of a group of God's people, in a position of great dominance over those same people.

As you mentioned Dave, everyone is "evil" in their basest of natures. But as you said, Mr. Rogers is no Saddam Hussein. And the lowly fearful follower of someone like George, is definitely no George.

--Joe

[vernecarty]

Great discussion on the nature of evil!
One way we have of making distinctions, even though we concede that we are all fallen creatures, is to assess the conduct of the observed. I agree with Dave that there is a practical component to the way in which we make that assessment and we would not ascribe the same level of severity to the offense of the man who cheats on his taxes, as we would to the one who rapes and murders his neighbour's wife.
This is all well and good from a human standpoint and rightly moderates the manner of our interaction with the theoretical transgressor.
The interesting thing to me though is that it would appear that this is not God's standard. How often did we observe the Lord to say:
"You have heard it said by them of old time.....but  I say unto you..." ?
One remarkable such example is the Lord's making an unholy look the equivalent of the act of adultery.
To the human intellect this seems all-together unreasonable does it not?
The lesson I draw from this is that none of us know the true depth of our own heart's depravity, our often veneer of civility notwithstanding. It is my own view that apart from the gracious restraint of God Himself, the sins committed by the worst of men, could be committed by any man.
This is the awful nature of sin. Our view of ourselves as sinners is often like being a little bit pregnant, in that we invoke questionable standards of degree.
This is a most vexing problem. We probably frequently misjudge the level of severity attendant to that which we judge only with feeble human sense; we are wont to temporise and to mitigate. I would certainly like to hear other thoughts on this...
Verne

[M2]

Marcia:
There is not an active assembly in my locale but there are a few who'd love to start one.  That scares me too.  Regardless of the fact that gg nolonger controls the assembly, the mind he taught still controls many minds here.  I warned another church today who'd offered an assembly member a bible study or some other venue.  They said they'd already locked heads with some serious doctrine discussions.
... So Brent: cheers for the truth!  The truth is glorious.

That's true. I guess what concerns me more than anything is how it keeps on perpetuating the evil. I have no axe to grind with anyone in or out but would like to warn others and those who God may be trying to show them something that the Assembly is an evil place. Obviously I am not saying any are beyond hope but many put themselves in a place where they cannot hear God in what we are saying. I am sad that many who I thought of as best friends are so deceived and I feel helpless to help them.

I remember in 1978 when I was 18 years old, my dad likened the group to Oral Roberts and the fakery of that ministry.  It was absolutely perposterous in my mind.  I insisted that this group was different.

12 years later, I was much more open to the idea.

Change does not always happen immediately.  When they are ready, they will listen.
...

Delila makes an important observation that "Regardless of the fact that gg nolonger controls the assembly, the mind he taught still controls many minds".

Also, though I agree that we needed a number of years to come to our senses, those who remain assembly sympathetic today do so by their own choice.  They are totally responsible for their state of deception.  God has sent the helicopter and the boat and the rope so-to-speak, but they have refused the means of His deliverance.  The Lord Jesus made a similar lament in His day that they did not recognize their day of visitation, but He continued to rebuke them for their behaviour.

LUK 19:44 ...because you did not recognize the time of your visitation. "
LUK 19:45 ¶ And He entered the temple and began to cast out those who were selling,
LUK 19:46 saying to them, "It is written, 'And My house shall be a house of prayer,' but you have made it a robbers' den."

JOH 3:19 "And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil.
JOH 3:20 "For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
JOH 3:21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Marcia

[al Hartman]

Great discussion on the nature of evil!
    ...It is my own view that apart from the gracious restraint of God Himself, the sins committed by the worst of men, could be committed by any man.
This is the awful nature of sin. Our view of ourselves as sinners is often like being a little bit pregnant, in that we invoke questionable standards of degree.
This is a most vexing problem. We probably frequently misjudge the level of severity attendant to that which we judge only with feeble human sense; we are wont to temporise and to mitigate. I would certainly like to hear other thoughts on this...
Verne

     I attempted to make a similar statement on another thread some months ago.  One response was to the effect of "No, I don't think I could ever do the kinds of things that George has done."
     It is easy to miss the distinction between sins and sin:
     Sins are actual deeds of commission or omission; things done that should not have been, or things that ought to have been done but were not.
     SIN is the element introduced in equal measure into every soul ever since the fall in Eden.
     Just because we may not feel the inclination to commit certain sins does not mean that we have any less the nature of sin within us than the very worst of mankind.  Unless we learn the truth of the concept "There, but for the grace of God, were I," have we truly begun to appreciate the gift of salvation which Christ died to give us?

al Hartman