George is Rebuilding his house

[al Hartman]

   ...I am reminded of the sage observation that all that is needed for evil to flourish in this world is for good men (and women) to do nothing. This is the great indictment of the Geftakys era. People did nothing! That is not an option.

     Ironically, I first heard this quote from George, and from him again many times thereafter.  The greater irony is that the reason people did nothing, in the sense that Verne reflects, is that George saw to it that everybody was kept too busy doing something subtly designed to occupy us in our own spiritual self-preservation.  If we ever had the time to reflect on things as they really were, we usually fell asleep from sheer exhaustion.  (No excuse, it's just how things were...)

Men and women who love Christ must pray.
They must speak.
They must act.
It's evident that his iniquity is not  yet full. Prayer must be offered to God that he would do a quick work, and cut it short in righteousness.

     Struggling Along makes a solid case for the possible reason behind the silence of the women Brent discusses.  Their situations certainly do differ from those of Rachel and Judy.  And there most assuredly is a biased social standard regarding sexual immorality and its victims.
     My first thought upon reading Brent's entreaty to these women was, Perhaps they feel themselves to be complicit in the wrongdoing, whether or not they were.  Perhaps they are too ashamed to speak out further.  This would be a product of society's lopsided scales of justice.

     A woman was brought before Jesus, accused of adultery, "caught in the very act."  How odd, but how telling, that she was brought alone...  She could hardly have been acting alone, and yet no man was being blamed.  Her accusers were apparently all men.  Could it be that they somehow identified with their brother?  The horrors he must have suffered at the guiles of that temptress!  In the same situation, they also might have succumbed to her irresistable spell!  For them (and therefore for the man) it would have been a weakness; for her it was sin!!!
     Jesus would have none of it, but with a minimum of words He shamed the men into making a full retreat, while He drew in the dust.  Looking up, He asked the woman "Where are your accusers?" and she told Him they had all gone away.  "Neither do I condemn you," said Jesus, "Go and sin no more."

     When Jesus said "Go," it was clearly a dismissal to do whatever the hearer wished.  But many of those who Jesus healed and forgave chose to follow Him.  He was surrounded by sinners, so grateful for His mercy, for His touch, the healing of their souls as well as their bodies, that they would not return to their former lives and ways.

     It would be a merciful help to those women abused by George if some of the former LBs we know would speak up on their behalf.  But some of those men may have followed in their supreme leader's footsteps, committing the same kinds of sins, of which they are now too ashamed to confess.  Or they may have resisted the temptation, but been envious of the great man's liberties, which would be as great a sin in their hearts.  I make no accusations, but I know men are like that at their basest.
     During my tenure I had such opportunity and by God's grace I resisted the temptation.  But I confess to my shame that had I known what was being practiced at the highest echelon, I might have justified my own self-indulgence.  I'll never know, but the possibilty of such destruction terribly humbles me and the reality of God's deliverance fills me with gratitude.

     Why would I post such a thing?  I want those women to know that nothing is too hard for the Lord.  Those thieves and adulterers who followed Jesus had it hard!  The community at large despised them.  They suffered the abuse of others because something far greater had captured their hearts and minds:  They had met the Lord!  I publicly confess my own shame to tell you that you are not alone, and that the tender mercies of Christ are worth everything.  
     I don't know what you should do, except to ask the Lord what you should do.  And don't be afraid of the answer.  Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.  Take my yoke upon you and learn of Me: for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you shall find rest unto your souls.  For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
     Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.

al Hartman

[vernecarty]

I completely agree. Judging by George Geftakys' lack of public shame regarding his vile behaviour, doubtless he would not hesitate to stoop to public villification of these were they to dare to speak out. The added pain would be unimaginable and I fully understand their reticence.
It is so interesting that Peter seems to suggest that it was gross immorality that rsulted in God's summary judgement on angelic beings. Does anybody really doubt that this guy is a Biblical type and intended for our warning?
You contending that he is "The Lord's servant", dream on in blasphemy...
Verne
p.s the fact that many of us do not know the names of these sisters should in no way deter us from earnestly praying for them. It is our responsibility...
Verne

[M2]

I have a few thoughts on this matter, but I am not dogmatic in my opinion here.

The Lord Jesus received the repentant sinner and was not ashamed to be assosciated with them.  Those very ones, like the women at the well, went boldly and declared "Come, see a man who told me all the things that I have done; this is not the Christ, is it?"(John 4:29).  This bold declaration was the means of deliverance of many who were sitting in darkness.

GG was in SF/Sac at the time of his excomm... (I believe).  He convinced the ones there that the Fullerton LBs were attempting to get rid of him and found some sisters to come forward and say things like "We were uncomfortable  etc...".  These ones (SF/Sac) still sit in darkness because they declare that GGs excomm... was not handled Biblically.  I personally disagree with them, but I do not know if the Fullerton LBs could convince them to change their minds.

And then there's the story of the rich man and Lazarus:
Luke 16:30 "But he said, 'No, Father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
Luke 16:31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.'"
They have a lot of evidence, but they are refusing the means of their deliverance from bondage because they have a 'mindset' about how God should answer their prayers.  Pride is what keeps these ones clinging on to a system that is bound to collapse.  Sac/Ottawa are proud that they 'did it their way' and were not influenced by GG before, so they will continue on doing it their way now.  Yet strangely enough, when they prayed about certain matters before, they usually ended up being of the same mind as GG.

It is of great concern though, that the 'assembly' has not been taken out of some of these individuals and that they are now influencing others with their 'poisonous stew'.  Brent has given some good suggestions to Delila's query "what can we do?" that merit prayerful consideration.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[editor]

So are their hands tied?  Should they do something?  It is a very sad day when victimized women have to speak for themselves.  The question is.  Where are the men who are angry because women could be abused like this?  Where are the men who could do something that would make a difference?  So few were outraged.  Unfortunately most have become just what George made them to be: passive and unable to act like a man would.  Men like Mark Miller, Rod Zach, Roger Grant who know the details could have fought for these women.  They could have personally warned every individual in every assembly where George is still welcome.  Have they warned Janine Almanzor, Agnes McAllister, all the women in San Francisco who are at risk of being similarly abused?  No they have put their heads in the sand and gone on protecting their own narrow lives.  Have they even encouraged counselling or help for these women?  Have they even entered into dialogue with them?  It is a very familiar story from Southern Baptists to the Catholic church.

Don't blame George's victims for not doing more.  They did not keep silent.  They did what they could in less public ways.  Writing on a website would not be healing to them.  There are enough people who know the story.  Let them rebuild their lives in peace.  Pray to God that they will heal as they seek to go on with their lives

You make a good point above.

What I said below is my opinion, and I do not dare reveal more on the matter.  I could not agree with you more about your assessment of the sinful passivity of Mark Miller and his fellow geftakysservants.

Clergy perpetrating sexual abuse seems to me to be the most heinous of all.  These men have power, esteem and THEY KNOW BETTER.  Women and children! who suffer at their hands have my deepest sympathy.

Still, if this problem is going to go away, either the victims, or a powerful victims's advocate must speak up!  Not that this makes much of a difference, but I even heard Dr. Laura echo my views.

Struggling does make another extremely strong argument:

The abuse will be re-created in George's followers.  Guys like Testa are more than capable.

Brent

[Oscar]

Hi all,

As William F. Buckley once said..."and now for a few words in defence of the Devil".  

The Fullerton assembly leaders openly declared GG's sins, while trying to protect the sisters involved from further shame.  In light of Matthew 1:18-19, I do not see how they could have done otherwise.

Unless you know everything these brothers have done or said to the recalcitrant clowns in the "receiving" assemblies, you are not well informed enough to judge their behavior.

That's my .02.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

[Recovering Saint]

Hi all,

As William F. Buckley once said..."and now for a few words in defence of the Devil".  

The Fullerton assembly leaders openly declared GG's sins, while trying to protect the sisters involved from further shame.  In light of Matthew 1:18-19, I do not see how they could have done otherwise.

Unless you know everything these brothers have done or said to the recalcitrant clowns in the "receiving" assemblies, you are not well informed enough to judge their behavior.

That's my .02.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Tom what about the other assemblies that receive George though and those who still operate in code of silence mode what about them?

Fullerton may have repented but there are others still following George and even more that are believing they can regroup and cleanse their places from George's influence but have not sought outside help. What do you say to them?

[Oscar]

Hi all,

As William F. Buckley once said..."and now for a few words in defence of the Devil".  

The Fullerton assembly leaders openly declared GG's sins, while trying to protect the sisters involved from further shame.  In light of Matthew 1:18-19, I do not see how they could have done otherwise.

Unless you know everything these brothers have done or said to the recalcitrant clowns in the "receiving" assemblies, you are not well informed enough to judge their behavior.

That's my .02.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Tom what about the other assemblies that receive George though and those who still operate in code of silence mode what about them?

Fullerton may have repented but there are others still following George and even more that are believing they can regroup and cleanse their places from George's influence but have not sought outside help. What do you say to them?

Hugh,

People are  responsible for that which lies within their power to control.  As to what I would say to them, I have already said it in great detail on these boards.
I have also had a number of personal conversations with folks since the "fall".

I cannot compel anyone to listen to me, or to do what I think they should do.  That is just not within my power.


I would tell them they are deluded fools, and would endeavor to show them why I think so.  But if they chose to ignore me, what could I do?   Believe me, I have been dealing with this question for 15 years.

The assemblies that are following the old practices of the GG assemblies, even if they have rejected GG, are still cultic groups.  I would, and do, warn anyone that is involved with them that will listen to me.

They have insulated themselves in the darkness and will just have to stay there until they decide to open the windows.

Think of it Hugh, what I have heard about the sisters that sinned with GG is that some of them are married now.  If it were your wife that had fallen into this, would you want a big sign posted accross the street from the meeting place, "Mrs. Hugh X sinned with GG for two years!"

Would you do that to your wife?  I'm sure you wouldn't.  Well, "do unto others".

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

[vernecarty]

Think of it Hugh, what I have heard about the sisters that sinned with GG is that some of them are married now.  If it were your wife that had fallen into this, would you want a big sign posted accross the street from the meeting place, "Mrs. Hugh X fornicated with GG for two years!"

Would you do that to your wife?  I'm sure you wouldn't.  Well, "do unto others".

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

This should help many to understand why it is not always the most Christ-honoring thing to divulge all...

Where are the men who are angry because women could be abused like this?  Where are the men who could do something that would make a difference?  So few were outraged.  Unfortunately most have become just what George made them to be: passive and unable to act like a man would.  Men like Mark Miller, Rod Zach, Roger Grant who know the details could have fought for these women.  They could have personally warned every individual in every assembly where George is still welcome.  Have they warned Janine Almanzor, Agnes McAllister, all the women in San Francisco who are at risk of being similarly abused?  No they have put their heads in the sand and gone on protecting their own narrow lives.  Have they even encouraged counselling or help for these women?  Have they even entered into dialogue with them?  It is a very familiar story from Southern Baptists to the Catholic church.

Don't blame George's victims for not doing more.  They did not keep silent.  They did what they could in less public ways.  Writing on a website would not be healing to them.  There are enough people who know the story.  Let them rebuild their lives in peace.   Pray to God that they will heal as they seek to go on with their lives

...for several of you who have over the months inquired:

Why are you so angry at the leading brothers, Verne??!!

You don't know the half of it...

Verne, your opinions regarding the leading brothers are disturbing to me—that they hid dark secrets for years, that any who remained in power for years were by definition compromised, not men of integrity, that they only excommunicated George to save face.  These are serious allegations that do not take into account the depth and power of George’s thought reform techniques.

While I agee with this statement, apparently the leading brothers do not. Their actions in the wake of George's departure suggest an unwillingness to truly accept culpability for what happened. While it is true that George intimidated them, this is neither a good nor a sufficient reason for a man of God to not take a stand. Ultimately, the clear reason for their inaction is inescapable - cowardice!
While we can understand this, it would be an egregious error to excuse it; we would have failed to learn from it in that case. I can only conclude that they feared George more than they feared God. Recent attempts to revive that work further suggests a complete failure to understand the truth of your observations regarding the influence in their lives of George Geftakys. I am still aflame over the on-going treatment of Judy Geftakys for which they are all partly to blame.

These men were trapped, because they loved the Lord and wanted to serve Him, and believed the assembly was the only place that could happen.  Here was a real deception. (Most of those who escaped years earlier either did not believe this or were forced out.)   The leading brothers sat in leading brothers meetings week after week getting viciously beaten up in the name of God, with capricious rewards thrown in occasionally for loyalty.  Periodically they were given demonstrations of what happened when someone disapproved or disagreed with George.  In the face of such traumatic shaming sanctions, the natural human self-protective mechanism is denial—the mind automatically represses perceptions and reactions that will bring pain if expressed.  We can criticize them for being in denial, but we didn’t live through years of that kind of treatment.  From the outside, we do not understand how that kind of coercion changes one’s perceptions.

They were trapped willingly. If they were content to accept the abuse that is one thing. The most offensive thing about this though was their willingnes to stand by and let this happen to others. Margaret the standard for these men was higher. Men and women have resisted to the shedding of their blood.

While I agree with you that George was contemptuous of his followers, I disagree that the leading brothers excommunicated him only to save face.  Quite to the contrary, they were frustrated and furious when George pre-empted them with his letter of “retirement”, in effect thumbing his nose at them and saying, “You can’t really touch me.”

I wish that we would stop trying to build a case to indict them.  At least some of them are tentatively reading the other bb and the website. I think it would help them and us more to examine what were the elements of George’s system and teaching that were abusive and wrong, so that we can all change.  I think the topic of deception can be discussed productively by focusing on the content of the deceptions, rather than on trying to figure out who was/is deceived.  We all were/are, to a greater or lesser degree.  We all still have some degree of the mind control operating in us, and that is one of the main reasons that discussions on the bb tend to disintegrate into judging and ad hominem attacks.  We learned it well.  
 Margaret

If I understand the events leading up to the letter correctly, there was compromising and temporising up to the last minute - even after the bretheren had information that should have led to the most serious sanctions against George Geftakys. As to secrets, not all has been disclosed, I assure you. My conclusions regarding the leading brothers disturbs me more.
There is only one reason for my concededly harsh analysis of their part in all this.
Their silence...!
Verne

Verne

[Recovering Saint]

Hi all,

As William F. Buckley once said..."and now for a few words in defence of the Devil".  

The Fullerton assembly leaders openly declared GG's sins, while trying to protect the sisters involved from further shame.  In light of Matthew 1:18-19, I do not see how they could have done otherwise.

Unless you know everything these brothers have done or said to the recalcitrant clowns in the "receiving" assemblies, you are not well informed enough to judge their behavior.

That's my .02.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Tom what about the other assemblies that receive George though and those who still operate in code of silence mode what about them?

Fullerton may have repented but there are others still following George and even more that are believing they can regroup and cleanse their places from George's influence but have not sought outside help. What do you say to them?

Hugh,

People are  responsible for that which lies within their power to control.  As to what I would say to them, I have already said it in great detail on these boards.
I have also had a number of personal conversations with folks since the "fall".

I cannot compel anyone to listen to me, or to do what I think they should do.  That is just not within my power.


I would tell them they are deluded fools, and would endeavor to show them why I think so.  But if they chose to ignore me, what could I do?   Believe me, I have been dealing with this question for 15 years.

The assemblies that are following the old practices of the GG assemblies, even if they have rejected GG, are still cultic groups.  I would, and do, warn anyone that is involved with them that will listen to me.

They have insulated themselves in the darkness and will just have to stay there until they decide to open the windows.

Think of it Hugh, what I have heard about the sisters that sinned with GG is that some of them are married now.  If it were your wife that had fallen into this, would you want a big sign posted accross the street from the meeting place, "Mrs. Hugh X sinned with GG for two years!"

Would you do that to your wife?  I'm sure you wouldn't.  Well, "do unto others".

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

That's true. I guess what concerns me more than anything is how it keeps on perpetuating the evil. I have no axe to grind with anyone in or out but would like to warn others and those who God may be trying to show them something that the Assembly is an evil place. Obviously I am not saying any are beyond hope but many put themselves in a place where they cannot hear God in what we are saying. I am sad that many who I thought of as best friends are so deceived and I feel helpless to help them.

[outdeep]

That's true. I guess what concerns me more than anything is how it keeps on perpetuating the evil. I have no axe to grind with anyone in or out but would like to warn others and those who God may be trying to show them something that the Assembly is an evil place. Obviously I am not saying any are beyond hope but many put themselves in a place where they cannot hear God in what we are saying. I am sad that many who I thought of as best friends are so deceived and I feel helpless to help them.

I remember in 1978 when I was 18 years old, my dad likened the group to Oral Roberts and the fakery of that ministry.  It was absolutely perposterous in my mind.  I insisted that this group was different.

12 years later, I was much more open to the idea.

Change does not always happen immediately.  When they are ready, they will listen.

One more thought that may help:  You have to put this idea of evil (a much overused word like the words "cult" and "awesome") into perspective.  Is the Assembly the only evil out there?  Take a ride on a pro-choice web and meet women who will give each other high fives when the goverment upholds their right to suck an almost-born baby's brains out.  Or read the blasphamous ravings of ultra-liberal commedians who write books that mock Christ.  Or follow the exploits of groups whose goal is to marginalize any expression of religious thought from every aspect of society.  Wander through the Middle-East and mention that you are an American Christian and observe the reception you get.  Visit the Pagan Club at the University and insist that Christ is the only way to salvation.  Learn about the Sudanese goverment and their lovely treament of Christians (and understand why Franklin Graham called theirs an evil religion after they tried to bomb our hospital for the 3rd or 4th time).

If you're going to be depressed that their is evil in the world, you will probably have to go live in a cave.  Do what you can, pray, build something better.  But, you will have to ultimately get on with your life and wait until Christ untangles the mess - whether in our lifetime or at His Second Coming.

[vernecarty]

That's true. I guess what concerns me more than anything is how it keeps on perpetuating the evil. I have no axe to grind with anyone in or out but would like to warn others and those who God may be trying to show them something that the Assembly is an evil place. Obviously I am not saying any are beyond hope but many put themselves in a place where they cannot hear God in what we are saying. I am sad that many who I thought of as best friends are so deceived and I feel helpless to help them.

I remember in 1978 when I was 18 years old, my dad likened the group to Oral Roberts and the fakery of that ministry.  It was absolutely perposterous in my mind.  I insisted that this group was different.

12 years later, I was much more open to the idea.

Change does not always happen immediately.  When they are ready, they will listen.

One more thought that may help:  You have to put this idea of evil (a much overused word like the words "cult" and "awesome") into perspective.  Is the Assembly the only evil out there?  Take a ride on a pro-choice web and meet women who will give each other high fives when the goverment upholds their right to suck an almost-born baby's brains out.  Or read the blasphamous ravings of ultra-liberal commedians who write books that mock Christ.  Or follow the exploits of groups whose goal is to marginalize any expression of religious thought from every aspect of society.  Wander through the Middle-East and mention that you are an American Christian and observe the reception you get.  Visit the Pagan Club at the University and insist that Christ is the only way to salvation.  Learn about the Sudanese goverment and their lovely treament of Christians (and understand why Franklin Graham called theirs an evil religion after they tried to bomb our hospital for the 3rd or 4th time).

If you're going to be depressed that their is evil in the world, you will probably have to go live in a cave.  Do what you can, pray, build something better.  But, you will have to ultimately get on with your life and wait until Christ untangles the mess - whether in our lifetime or at His Second Coming.

Dave you make a valid point but we expect such conduct from the groups you cite. The great horror of the assemblies, and what in my view makes them far more frightening and destructive is that what took place was promulgated under a "Christian" banner. In these matters, the counterfeit is far more deadly...
Verne

[outdeep]

No argument there, Verne.  We Christians should know better and be the lights in the world.

My point in response to Hugh was that we can't always view the existence of alleged evil as our call to be on the front line fighting it.  I am not advocating passivity and I am thankful to God that Brent was not passive.  On the other hand, we can be consumed by it to the extent that we relinquish the opportunity to build something else positive - a ministry in a healthy local church, for instance.  Where the balance is, each person must decide.

Thus, the oft-quoted prayer:

God, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
the courage to change the things I can;
and the wisdom to know the difference.

[Mark Kisla]

That's true. I guess what concerns me more than anything is how it keeps on perpetuating the evil. I have no axe to grind with anyone in or out but would like to warn others and those who God may be trying to show them something that the Assembly is an evil place. Obviously I am not saying any are beyond hope but many put themselves in a place where they cannot hear God in what we are saying. I am sad that many who I thought of as best friends are so deceived and I feel helpless to help them.

I remember in 1978 when I was 18 years old, my dad likened the group to Oral Roberts and the fakery of that ministry.  It was absolutely perposterous in my mind.  I insisted that this group was different.

12 years later, I was much more open to the idea.

Change does not always happen immediately.  When they are ready, they will listen.

One more thought that may help:  You have to put this idea of evil (a much overused word like the words "cult" and "awesome") into perspective.  Is the Assembly the only evil out there?  Take a ride on a pro-choice web and meet women who will give each other high fives when the goverment upholds their right to suck an almost-born baby's brains out.  Or read the blasphamous ravings of ultra-liberal commedians who write books that mock Christ.  Or follow the exploits of groups whose goal is to marginalize any expression of religious thought from every aspect of society.  Wander through the Middle-East and mention that you are an American Christian and observe the reception you get.  Visit the Pagan Club at the University and insist that Christ is the only way to salvation.  Learn about the Sudanese goverment and their lovely treament of Christians (and understand why Franklin Graham called theirs an evil religion after they tried to bomb our hospital for the 3rd or 4th time).

If you're going to be depressed that their is evil in the world, you will probably have to go live in a cave.  Do what you can, pray, build something better.  But, you will have to ultimately get on with your life and wait until Christ untangles the mess - whether in our lifetime or at His Second Coming.

Dave you make a valid point but we expect such conduct from the groups you cite. The great horror of the assemblies, and what in my view makes them far more frightening and destructive is that what took place was promulgated under a "Christian" banner. In these matters, the counterfeit is far more deadly...
Verne

Dave & Verne ,
I agree with both of you.
Dave, I agree that we should not be so consumed that it prevents us from building something new. It is a wonderful liberty to be able to call the assembly for what it actually was, yet at the same time build on the solid  truth found in the scriptures. As you know many are unable to do this because the programming in the assembly taught that to question or critisize anything "assembly" was evil, for others it is an issue of pride.
Verne,
I agree with you that the great horror of the assembly was what was done under the banner of Christianity.
 I always felt George and some of his cronys were big blowhards. The difference for me after a year of reading this bb is that if I ever meet George or one of his good buddies on the street again I would no longer have to take the defensive from one of their condiscending verbal assaults.
Now I know there are some assembly groupies out there that would say I am no different than George and his buddies were. Well, I am different. I'm telling the truth, they told lies and are living a lie.

[M2]

No argument there, Verne.  We Christians should know better and be the lights in the world.

My point in response to Hugh was that we can't always view the existence of alleged evil as our call to be on the front line fighting it.  I am not advocating passivity and I am thankful to God that Brent was not passive.  On the other hand, we can be consumed by it to the extent that we relinquish the opportunity to build something else positive - a ministry in a healthy local church, for instance.  Where the balance is, each person must decide.

Thus, the oft-quoted prayer:

God, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
the courage to change the things I can;
and the wisdom to know the difference.

I gather from this discussion, that you agree that the assembly is an 'evil' place. But approaching those still "in" is often a futile effort, and may not be a profitable exercise.  Hugh attends the same church that Claude and I do, and we are all very happy there, but we do have a genuine concern for those who are still locked "in".  Hugh left 2 weeks after I did.  He attended some of the 'closed brethren' meetings before his departure and attempted to communicate that GG's influence had permeated the assembly such that it would be best to seek outside help.  Most of the brethren did not agree with him.  Anyway... it would seem that the best thing to do at this point is to 'leave them alone, they are blind guides of the blind...'  We also are concerned that those who remain 'assembly' sympathetic might influence the unwary with their assemblyisms.  To quote Verne here: May God grant us wisdom to do only His will.

Marcia

[al Hartman]

    ...I guess what concerns me more than anything is how it keeps on perpetuating the evil.

     ...You have to put this idea of evil (a much overused word like the words "cult" and "awesome") into perspective.  Is the Assembly the only evil out there?  

     ...The great horror of the assemblies, and what in my view makes them far more frightening and destructive is that what took place was promulgated under a "Christian" banner. In these matters, the counterfeit is far more deadly...
Verne

     Good points all, but to continue on the theme of "perspective," do we suppose that the sins of Geftakysism are greater than those of the Branch Davidians, Jim Jones, the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition, all the horrors of which took place in the name of "Christianity?"  Hardly, but Geftakysism is the horror that happened to us!  We dare not take that fact for granted.  It is no coincidence that you and I are where we are today, nor is it any wonder that our hearts are heavy, as Hugh states, for those beloved to us who blindly remain behind in willing bondage.
     As Mordecai exhorted Esther:  ...who knows whether (we) have come to the kingdom for such a time as this?  Most of us may seldom if ever pray for the survivors of Waco, but we are uniquely qualified and motivated both to intercede for and bear witness to the victims of the assemblies.  It only remains for us each to determine how the Lord wants us to fulfill our opportunity.

Quote from: Marcia on January 29, 2004, 12:21:12am
     ...To quote Verne here: May God grant us wisdom to do only His will.

Have Thine own way, Lord...

al Hartman