George is Rebuilding his house

[editor]

Great discussion on the nature of evil!
    ...It is my own view that apart from the gracious restraint of God Himself, the sins committed by the worst of men, could be committed by any man.
This is the awful nature of sin. Our view of ourselves as sinners is often like being a little bit pregnant, in that we invoke questionable standards of degree.
This is a most vexing problem. We probably frequently misjudge the level of severity attendant to that which we judge only with feeble human sense; we are wont to temporise and to mitigate. I would certainly like to hear other thoughts on this...
Verne

     I attempted to make a similar statement on another thread some months ago.  One response was to the effect of "No, I don't think I could ever do the kinds of things that George has done."
     It is easy to miss the distinction between sins and sin:
     Sins are actual deeds of commission or omission; things done that should not have been, or things that ought to have been done but were not.
     SIN is the element introduced in equal measure into every soul ever since the fall in Eden.
     Just because we may not feel the inclination to commit certain sins does not mean that we have any less the nature of sin within us than the very worst of mankind.  Unless we learn the truth of the concept "There, but for the grace of God, were I," have we truly begun to appreciate the gift of salvation which Christ died to give us?

al Hartman

Most people go through life without murdering their spouse.

Most people, at some point are incredibly angry with their spouse, with many to the point of hatred.  (Divorce rate)

Jesus said that the latter is murder in the heart, but it is much different than the former.  I may get angry at my wife sometimes, and vice-versa, but we haven't killed eachother yet, and probably never will.

Am I capable of doing what George did?  Of course.

Have I done once what he practiced for decades?  No, and I promise I won't.  While we are both sinners, there is something seriously wrong with him.  

I certainly hope this discussion doesn't steer back towards equivocating George's very heinous sin.  It fits into a special category, not at all the same as the normal weaknesses we all possess.

Brent

[Joe Sperling]

Brent---

Thanks for your post.  We've all seen the guy who murdered 3 people in the court room, while his attorney argues that "the abuse he suffered as a child led him to do these things". The attorney pleads for "leniency" because of what he has suffered. And there is a logic in this which says "Maybe if I was abused as he was I would murder 3 people too. Who am I to judge this man? What makes me any better than he? We're all murderers at heart."

Often these pleadings pay off and the penalty is reduced. And the parents and friends of the 3 murdered people are the ones who truly suffer for it.

In the same way, we as Christians can say "Oh, what George did was terrible. But we are all capable of doing the same things. And since we are all capable of these things, we should not be so hard on him for the evil things he did." By doing this, his offences are lessened in our minds, and the testimony of those who lived under him is called "bitterness" rather than truth. The sufferers are told to "just let it go" and stop judging so harshly.

It's like turning to the families of the 3 murder victims and saying(and I realize this is a far more heinous crime than George commited but is worth the analogy)
"Oh, just let it go. You could have murdered someone just as easily if you suffered what he went through as a child. We are all murderers. Stop judging the man so harshly. Judge not lest ye be judged".

--Joe

[editor]

Brent---

Thanks for your post.  We've all seen the guy who murdered 3 people in the court room, while his attorney argues that "the abuse he suffered as a child led him to do these things". The attorney pleads for "leniency" because of what he has suffered. And there is a logic in this which says "Maybe if I was abused as he was I would murder 3 people too. Who am I to judge this man? What makes me any better than he? We're all murderers at heart."

Often these pleadings pay off and the penalty is reduced. And the parents and friends of the 3 murdered people are the ones who truly suffer for it.

In the same way, we as Christians can say "Oh, what George did was terrible. But we are all capable of doing the same things. And since we are all capable of these things, we should not be so hard on him for the evil things he did." By doing this, his offences are lessened in our minds, and the testimony of those who lived under him is called "bitterness" rather than truth. The sufferers are told to "just let it go" and stop judging so harshly.

It's like turning to the families of the 3 murder victims and saying(and I realize this is a far more heinous crime than George commited but is worth the analogy)
"Oh, just let it go. You could have murdered someone just as easily if you suffered what he went through as a child. We are all murderers. Stop judging the man so harshly. Judge not lest ye be judged".

--Joe

Woe to the people who call Good, Evil  and Evil, Good!

We are supposed to have our minds exercised to discerne the difference between Good and Evil.  This presupposes that both exist.  If all is Evil, and nothing Good, than the Bible is full of double talk and nonsense.

Let's put it plainly.  George's behavior is Evil, not Good.  

How do I know this?  It is plain as day!  Only people like us,  who had our minds starved and poisoned for decades, could actually debate the topic!

All the people who took one look at the Chapter Summary and walked out never to return-----these people understood what was going on.  Tell them about what took place and you will get a straight answer.

Even better, ask George's brother or nephew about George's character.  They get it.

We were taught how to "not think," how to excuse abuse, and how to call Evil---legalism, Galatianism, authoritarianism, plagiarism, coercion, manipulation, sexual abuse, physical abuse----we were taught to excuse all of this.  We were taught to call Evil, Good.   We were also taught to call Good----"worldly" Christianity----Evil!

Nuff Said!  We were/are Pharisees!  

Brent

[Mark C.]

Hi Everyone !
  I heard a very good explanation of the verses in Matt. 5 re. anger at my brother being compared with the actual act of murder by Jesus.  The same passage uses other examples of evil behavior and the evil thought in one's heart as being equal in God's eyes.
  I don't pretend to understand fully these Sermon On The Mount teachings, but we know that we are not to interpret a passage without considering it's context in the NT and how Jesus disciples understood it is important as well.
  I do not believe that Jesus was teaching that behavior and fleeting thoughts that are not acted on are equally evil.  The key is the phrase "in the heart", because that phrase means more than a surge of feeling.  The heart was understood in Jesus day as more than the emotional center of one's personality and included the will and reasoning faculties as well.
  Those who are plotting evil in their hearts' (premeditation) are not the same as those who have a temporary feeling of ill will toward another that they are able to control.
  Here are two good examples that will help us understand what I'm saying:  A terrorist plots to attack the White House, but is caught before he can complete the act and is just as evil as the terrorist who plots but who is able to complete the terrorist act.  The second example:  I'm driving down the freeway in my truck and a car. without using a turn signal, cuts in front of me as a light turns red and I barely stop before almost hitting the jerk.  I am filled with the emotion of anger and would like to get out and kick the butt of the driver, but I restrain myself (my almost daily experience).
  In this last personal example the negative emotions are not what Jesus was talking about because it did not come from the heart.  The proof that it did not have control of my heart is that I did not act on it, even though I had the opportunity to do so.
   This must be the case as we see Jesus, Paul, etc. getting angry to the point of calling others "fools". whipping those in the Temple, wishing false teachers would "emasculate themselves", etc. and what this tells us is that Jesus in Matt. 5 is not saying that such negative emotions, attitudes, or even behaviors are always equal.  Jesus was trying to deal with the heart of a pharisee who trusted in self righteousness and was preparing the way for understanding the grace of God.
   Brent is correct:  We must make clear distinctions re. good and evil and by one's behavior we can tell what is in their hearts'.
                           God Bless,  Mark C.
 

[Oscar]

Brent---

Thanks for your post.  We've all seen the guy who murdered 3 people in the court room, while his attorney argues that "the abuse he suffered as a child led him to do these things". The attorney pleads for "leniency" because of what he has suffered. And there is a logic in this which says "Maybe if I was abused as he was I would murder 3 people too. Who am I to judge this man? What makes me any better than he? We're all murderers at heart."

Often these pleadings pay off and the penalty is reduced. And the parents and friends of the 3 murdered people are the ones who truly suffer for it.

In the same way, we as Christians can say "Oh, what George did was terrible. But we are all capable of doing the same things. And since we are all capable of these things, we should not be so hard on him for the evil things he did." By doing this, his offences are lessened in our minds, and the testimony of those who lived under him is called "bitterness" rather than truth. The sufferers are told to "just let it go" and stop judging so harshly.

It's like turning to the families of the 3 murder victims and saying(and I realize this is a far more heinous crime than George commited but is worth the analogy)
"Oh, just let it go. You could have murdered someone just as easily if you suffered what he went through as a child. We are all murderers. Stop judging the man so harshly. Judge not lest ye be judged".

--Joe

Joe,

I think that what makes the difference between the fact that all of us have a capacity for evil, and those who become truly evil is a matter of progression.

When a person willfully commits acts of evil they become increasingly deceived and hardened.   What was unthinkable at one time becomes your history down the road.

Therefore, the Bible uses terms like, "put off", "flee", "avoid".

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

[joan]

This "double standard" discussion reminds me of a conversation I had with a still-in member who was defending Geftakys' behavior with the usual "...we all make mistakes; he's asked for forgiveness..."  

With a look of disbelief on my face I reminded the member of his outrage at Bill Clinton and his sexual misbehavior.  Had Bill Clinton behaved in a despicable way?  Of course.  However, he at least had never set himself up as our spiritual leader.   The Assemblyite had condemned Clinton out of hand with no possible forgiveness and yet here he was defending Geftakys for all he was worth.

Double standards, indeed.

[sfortescue]

The second example:  I'm driving down the freeway in my truck and a car. without using a turn signal, cuts in front of me as a light turns red and I barely stop before almost hitting the jerk.

Perhaps if you plan ahead?  Mathematically, it is possible to calculate the maximum speed and point at which it is not possible to stop at a light based on how many seconds long the yellow light lasts.  If you have a stop-watch, you can time how long it takes to stop from various speeds.  Comparing that data with how many seconds a given yellow light lasts, you can determine the maximum speed for that light.  From your description, it would seem that a truck should plan on stopping a car-length before the intersection.  Add to that the stopping distance that corresponds to the maximum speed determined in the previous step.  The calculated distance is how far before the intersection the yellow light decision to stop should be made.  Of course, some drivers will cause problems by stopping more quickly than necessary, so you'll probably have to go even slower still, and you might have two cars pull in front of you so you might need to stop further back.  Maybe a better truck would help?

   Brent is correct:  We must make clear distinctions re. good and evil and by one's behavior we can tell what is in their hearts'.
                           God Bless,  Mark C.
 

In the parable of the tares, discerning the immature plants is not reliable enough to be trusted, but someone who is trusted to be in a leadership position needs to be spiritually mature enough for some discernment about them to be possible.  Human discernment will always be limited.

[Mark C.]

Perhaps if you plan ahead?  ------ Of course, some drivers will cause problems by stopping more quickly than necessary, so you'll probably have to go even slower still, and you might have two cars pull in front of you so you might need to stop further back.  Maybe a better truck would help?

  Stephen,
  You would need more than a stop watch to calculate the suicidal moves of some car drivers.  Some roads have four lanes and I have seen cars cross across four lanes, just missing my bumper, to get in front of me. The only safe action to take is to slow to a stop and hope that nobody runs into you!
   I have to drive the truck I'm given, but that doesn't change the fact that it takes longer to stop 80,000 LBS  truck then a car.  I've been driving trucks for about 30 years and that has given me an intuitive warning re. the suicidal driver who feels he must place his GEO within inches of my front  bumper.  Unfortunately actual experience on the road does not lend itself to the type of controlled experiment that you describe as the amount of idiots on the road plus the many variables available these jerks could only be computed by the computer Big Blue!!!
                             God Bless,  Mark C.

[Dede Hoag]

Not to get off the subject (that's already off the subject) - But where are you faithful dissenters at as far as protesting "George Rebuilding his house". Have you given up?

[Dede Hoag]

Unless I have not found the correct or most up to date info on the WWW, it appears that both George G. & Timothy G. have be accused of sexual sin, have not repented, and are still in leadership.  Can anyone get statements attesting first hand knowledge of that? From what I've read at the various web-sites such statements have already been made handed over to ex-members.  

Someone please confirm or correct me on this!

[delila]

Yup.  Looks like they're off topic.

George: do you doubt there are problems?  
Tim: is a talented speaker but not an honest man.  He's lied about many things to me and others and he is his father's son, towing the family line of pat answers and predictable responses to honest questions.  As far as the other stuff, I can not comment.

I don't believe there is an 'ex-assembly' mind here.  We are individuals, not borg.  We have broken from the collective.  I repeat, we are individuals.  You wouldn't believe how the 'Lord spoke to me' through star trek the next gen when I finally left the assembly and moved in with a woman who owned a tv.   So you won't get one single response.  Ask a question, and you'll get many responses here.  We all have minds, switched on and in increasingly good working condition.

Where you from?  I'm from Canada.
George's doors are currently closed here.  yippie!
delila

[delila]

About giving up:

There are many ways to heal from the assembly.  We could burn our bras (no, that was feminism wasn't it? - or part of the protest early on)
We could tie ourselves to trees (what some people btw believe we do on this website) - they think we relive the pain again and again just by logging on.  That's why they don't log on.  I've had conversations with people who don't check it out and that's the reason given, not that they doubt what went on in the assembly was abusive, but that by being here, they will do anything but wound themselves again.
We could sue (the american way - anybody up for that?) - the legal system, in my opinion, as slow and slick as it is, is a wonderful tool for wounding oneself.
What else?
Oh yeah: we could seek out those we know have suffered and spend some time being a part of that healing.  That happens here.  And that also happens where we live and work and have contacts with those formerly in the assembly.
This last way to heal is what I have chossen.  I told someone who suffered very much much much more than I, that she was a hero to me and my sister (also of x assembly lineage who chooses NOT to participate on this website).  She took my hand and we both cried.  She's a hero for me because she survived even though not one single assembly member stood by her.  She survived decades of abuse and found the courage to claim her life again.
That's why I call, demolishing gg's house!
hip
hip
HOrray!

delila

[Oscar]

Unless I have not found the correct or most up to date info on the WWW, it appears that both George G. & Timothy G. have be accused of sexual sin, have not repented, and are still in leadership.  Can anyone get statements attesting first hand knowledge of that? From what I've read at the various web-sites such statements have already been made handed over to ex-members.  

Someone please confirm or correct me on this!

Dede,

I think that one must draw a distinction between GG's situation and Tim's.  

I can remember being outraged when GG would accuse me of saying or doing something on the basis of information he recieved from some unnamed informant.

The Pharisee's rule was, "in the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses".
It seems to me that we cannot accept a lower standard than they did.  Not if we are going to claim to "judge righteous judgement".

In GG's case, an investigation was conducted and several sisters admitted guilt, which, of course, means GG was guilty as well.

I am aware of some claims made about Tim G. that say he was guilty of sexual sin with sisters prior to his marriage.
I have never heard an accusation of adultery.

However, these are not confessions, but claims to have heard other people say that Tim did this.  Therefore I would not accuse him of this behavior until I heard credible evidence.

Now, as to the idea that Tim G. is a "pretty good preacher" I would disagree.  I believe that Tim is so poorly taught that he has no business teaching others.

There is a difference between the gift of gab and expounding the Word faithfully.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

[delila]

Tom

Check my message.  I never said he was a pretty good preacher.  I said he was a talented speaker.  Big differance.  So was Hitler.
Delila

[editor]

Unless I have not found the correct or most up to date info on the WWW, it appears that both George G. & Timothy G. have be accused of sexual sin, have not repented, and are still in leadership.  Can anyone get statements attesting first hand knowledge of that? From what I've read at the various web-sites such statements have already been made handed over to ex-members.  

Someone please confirm or correct me on this!

There are people who have first hand statements, and there are the women themselves.

They don't want to make a public statement, and many of us don't feel right about making it for them.  

Of course, there are Rachel and Judy, who did say something.  Mostly, people don't want to trouble themselves, which is understandable, or they are afraid, which is typical.

However, a number of people know about George's sin,  and it is definitely legit.

Brent