George is Rebuilding his house

[vernecarty]

Am I capable of doing what George did?  Of course.

Have I done once what he practiced for decades?  No, and I promise I won't.  While we are both sinners, there is something seriously wrong with him.  

I am curious. How many people on the BB would be as confident as Brent in making the above statement?
If you would be, and I am speaking as a believer, why?
If you would not be, why not?

I certainly hope this discussion doesn't steer back towards equivocating george's very heinous sin.  It fits into a special category, not at all the same as the normal weaknesses we all possess.
Brent

Whether or not this happens depends very much on some fundamental agreement on what the standard should be for a servant of Jesus Christ.
The statements of some in this regard have been a source of dismay.
It is clear to me that those who engage in equivocation regarding george geftakys' conduct have no idea of who Jesus Christ is and what he stands for, pompous pronouncements to the contrary notwithstanding. The harshest language in the New Testament was directed at people like george geftakys and employed by the Lord Jesus Hhimself! Consider the scandalous assertions of some of reprobate mind that this cretin is "The Lord's servant"!!!
Make no mistake about it folks. Anyone defending or excusing a person like this exposes themsleves as depraved and corrupt and worthy of utter rejection by people who love the Lord Jesus Christ. If the conduct of this wicked man does not move you to outrage and a passion for God's honor to be vindicated, you are a spirtual traitor to the cause of Christ- no exceptions! I completely agree with Brent regarding the nature of geftakys' sin. It does not scripturally qualify  as that of a brother over-taken in a fault. Those of you who would treat it as such are remarkably foolish in my humble opinion.
Verne

[Kimberley Tobin]

This "double standard" discussion reminds me of a conversation I had with a still-in member who was defending Geftakys' behavior with the usual "...we all make mistakes; he's asked for forgiveness..."  

With a look of disbelief on my face I reminded the member of his outrage at Bill Clinton and his sexual misbehavior.  Had Bill Clinton behaved in a despicable way?  Of course.  However, he at least had never set himself up as our spiritual leader.   The Assemblyite had condemned Clinton out of hand with no possible forgiveness and yet here he was defending Geftakys for all he was worth.

Double standards, indeed.

Did you remind this "still-in member" that GG HAS NOT ASKED FOR FORGIVENESS!!!!!!!!!!  He has not even admitted that he did anything.  He contends that it is all lies!  These people are now making up stories (revisionist history was rampant in the assembly btw)!

[Mark Kisla]

Now, as to the idea that Tim G. is a "pretty good preacher" I would disagree.  I believe that Tim is so poorly taught that he has no business teaching others.

There is a difference between the gift of gab and expounding the Word faithfully.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Tom,
I would agree with you on this one. I have refered to Geftakys appointed leadership as " Charlie the Tunas", They looked good or as in Tims case had "the gift of gab" but how many expounded the Word of God faithfully and untainted from Georges control ?
Mark K

[Mark Kisla]

Am I capable of doing what George did?  Of course.

Have I done once what he practiced for decades?  No, and I promise I won't.  While we are both sinners, there is something seriously wrong with him.  

I am curious. How many people on the BB would be as confident as Brent in making the above statement?
If you would be, and I am speaking as a believer, why?
If you would not be, why not?

I certainly hope this discussion doesn't steer back towards equivocating george's very heinous sin.  It fits into a special category, not at all the same as the normal weaknesses we all possess.
Brent

Whether or not this happens depends very much on some fundamental agreement on what the standard should be for a servant of Jesus Christ.
The statements of some in this regard have been a source of dismay.
It is clear to me that those who engage in equivocation regarding george geftakys' conduct have no idea of who Jesus Christ is and what he stands for, pompous pronouncements to the contrary notwithstanding. The harshest language in the New Testament was directed at people like george geftakys and employed by the Lord Jesus Hhimself! Consider the scandalous assertions of some of reprobate mind that this cretin is "The Lord's servant"!!!
Make no mistake about it folks. Anyone defending or excusing a person like this exposes themsleves as depraved and corrupt and worthy of utter rejection by people who love the Lord Jesus Christ. If the conduct of this wicked man does not move you to outrage and a passion for God's honor to be vindicated, you are a spirtual traitor to the cause of Christ- no exceptions! I completely agree with Brent regarding the nature of geftakys' sin. It does not scripturally qualify  as that of a brother over-taken in a fault. Those of you who would treat it as such are remarkably foolish in my humble opinion.
Verne

Verne to answer your Question, A sincere follower of Jesus Christ believes, "That the fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom" You embrace and involve the precepts of God in your life because you respect and love the Lord as the result of the redemptive work of Calvary in our heart.
To turn your back on Gods perfect will and then take steps to cover up and protect a wicked lifestyle is a pretty clear indiction of someone who does not share the belief that, "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom.

[delila]

Be careful how you quote:
drj
Now, as to the idea that Tim G. is a "pretty good preacher" I would disagree.  I believe that Tim is so poorly taught that he has no business teaching others.


Thomas Maddux

Tom,
I would agree with you on this one. I have refered to Geftakys appointed leadership as " Charlie the Tunas", They looked good or as in Tims case had "the gift of gab" but how many expounded the Word of God faithfully and untainted from Georges control ?
Mark K

[DennisP]

Ya ain't agonna git him for money issues...anyone in the whole county can give a gift of up to $10,000 dollars a year to anyone else.  Couples can give up to $20,000 a yr.  These gifts are not taxable...and any tax on gifts to others over $10,000 are taxable...for the gift-giver...
DP


My question is this...

What are the objectives?  Is the only objective to warn people about George via newspaper ads and email to other churches?  I think that is way to soft and would only do good for a limited time.  In order to stop this monster, I think he needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.  For crying out loud, this guy and his sons have illegally mishandled and misappopriated funds for years now and more than likely have cheated horifically on their taxes.  

[editor]

Ya ain't agonna git him for money issues...anyone in the whole county can give a gift of up to $10,000 dollars a year to anyone else.  Couples can give up to $20,000 a yr.  These gifts are not taxable...and any tax on gifts to others over $10,000 are taxable...for the gift-giver...
DP


My question is this...

What are the objectives?  Is the only objective to warn people about George via newspaper ads and email to other churches?  I think that is way to soft and would only do good for a limited time.  In order to stop this monster, I think he needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.  For crying out loud, this guy and his sons have illegally mishandled and misappopriated funds for years now and more than likely have cheated horifically on their taxes.  

Yep.

However, here is the problem.  The women won't come forward publicly and bring an action against him.  Everyone else is too cowardly or lazy to do anything of substance.  All of us agreee that something should be done, but very few are willing to anything.

I have done my part, mostly because I knew that if I didn't do it, it would never get done.  My family paid a price, and we all agree it was worth it.  However,  we bought as much as we can pay for and it is up to others to step up and do the rest.

We were all a bunch of cowards, and passive dupes while under George's influence.  The question remains,  does anyone out there have the cojones to do more?

I can tell you this much, if he seduced one of my daughters, I would do something about it.  There are people's daughters out there who probably haven't told their parents what happened, so not much help there.

On the other hand, there are husbands married to women whom George abused, and former fiances of women he abused, and they do nothing!  Good riddance!  

It's not my place to tell their stories, or reveal their identities on this forum, although most people know who they are---gossip was always a strong point in The Assembly.  If they don't do anything about it, nothing will get done.

George's ministry will never recover, and the second generation of little George's and their sychophants will not reach the degree of influence that the first did.  I take comfort in that, and in the price I paid to see it happen.

If these women can sleep at night, without perscription drugs I would be surprised.  Why don't they do something?

Oh yeah, it's painful.  Yep, I suppose it is really bad, but does that relieve them of their responsiblilty to see that it doesn't happen again?

One of the women was George's regular squeeze a decade ago.  She didn't warn the next one about what he was like.  George didn't rape anyone...they were willing, although coerced.  These women bear the responsibility to warn others.  They engaged in immoral acts with a married man.  Were they victims....ABSOLUTELY!   However, they are also guilty.

Brent

[al Hartman]

Re:Dealing With Deception  



    As one who has been publicly taken to task on the GABB for judging the motives of others, I am baffled by the ongoing persecution of the Geftakys family and their followers.  I know this is a shocking statement, but please hear me out:

    Clearly what these persons were engaged in was satan's work in opposition to God, Christ, the church as a whole, and every individual affected.  And the results were catastrophic for years.  Lives were lost or ruined.  Families were destroyed.  Surely the half of the overall devastation has not yet been revealed.

    We need to know all we can know about the nature of the deception perpetrated upon us.  We need to understand how we were deceived to prevent its recurrence, and we must learn what we did or did not do that allowed us to be misled.  But that is the extent of the "why" that is important to us.

    Whether the perpetrators of the evil we experienced were knowingly in league with the devil or were themselves deceived and manipulated has no bearing whatever on the effect that the evil had upon the unsuspecting.  And the judgment of those souls who were the instruments of pain and suffering is the Lord's to perform.

    I am not saying that anyone with cold hard evidence of criminality should not turn it over to the IRS or the vice squad or whatever agency has jusisdiction.  I'm pretty sure that's what I'd do.  But I am saying that vengeance and judgment are the Lord's, and speculations as to motive are no better than a witch-hunt, offering nothing to be gained beyond venting one's spleen.

    We do not, cannot know the heart of another.  We are to discern whether spirits are from God.  We are to discern whether the deeds of men are good or evil, whether or not their words are true.  But we are not told to find out their reasons-- only how to recognize them and how to treat them.  And those whose lives are conduits for evil we are not to treat nicely or sweetly, but severely.  Their judgment and sentencing, however, remain the Lord's domain.

    There is full-time work to be done in the recovery of souls, the rebuilding of faith and relationships, and preventive efforts on behalf of the vulnerable.  While anger and pain over the past may be understandable, further pursuit of the guilty and shaming of the complicit are neither instructed nor condoned.  At least not to my understanding.

    It is not my intent to take on the "big guns," but I am in disagreement with these particular pursuits.  Every effort being made in Christian ministry must focus on the Lord Jesus Christ or it is eccentric-- off-center.
    Do we need Christ and justice?  Do we need Christ and vengeance?  NO!  We do not need Christ and anything!!!  We need Christ, and Him alone.

    Let us allow our anger and our pain to propel us unto Him, where we can experience healing and be reinvigorated as vessels in His service.  Let us come to Him and learn of Him and find rest and peace for our souls.  What we need is not closure, but closeness to Him.

    Teach us how deception was/is perpetrated, and how we made ourselves susceptible to it.  But leave the "why" of it to be judged by the One against Whose name and testimony and people it was performed.

          I have also posted this on the RFTWBB, in response to a recent post by Verne.  I regret taking the unpopular position, and stand open to enlightenment and correction.

al Hartman

[Oscar]

Al,

"On going persecution of the Geftakys family and their followers"

Huh?

Is someone persecuting the Geftakys family?

Are you equating criticism with persecution?

Thomas Maddux

[al Hartman]

Al,

"On going persecution of the Geftakys family and their followers"

Huh?

Is someone persecuting the Geftakys family?

Are you equating criticism with persecution?

Thomas Maddux

Tom & All,

     Poorly stated on my part perhaps, but No, I do not equate criticism with persecution, nor do I mean to speak against criticism.  My previous post was criticism.  Criticism is opinion, to which everyone is entitled (or so I've been told).  But to preach opinion as unimpeachable fact?
     For example, Brent said,

    ...here is the problem.  The women won't come forward publicly and bring an action against him (George).  Everyone else is too cowardly or lazy to do anything of substance.  All of us agreee that something should be done, but very few are willing to anything.

    Not being one of those women, I obviously fall into the category of "too cowardly or lazy," along with you & "everybody else."  And while I am willing to do something, I'm not sure that I agree that something "ought to be done," which excludes me from "all of us."  Nor do I think it necessarily a good thing to shame those women who could, but have not, come forth to testify.  They have not been named on this forum, but some will know who they are, and they know who they are-- the tactic appears to be to make them feel guilty for not doing what someone else wants them to do.

     Have George, Betty, David & others been tools of the devil?  Without doubt to my mind they have.  But willingly and with malice aforethought?  And if so, was that always their intent?  Or at what point did they shift from being deceived to being commited co-conspiritors in evil?
     There is a clamoring for blood; for heads to roll.  It is spiritually unhealthy, and a hindrance to spiritual recovery.  That is my opinion-- I do not ask anyone to accept it, but to consider:  Will we feel so much better if we can watch the guilty suffer?
     From what I've read & heard, "closure" (the present-day cure for all ills) is accomplished within the individual, and efforts to achieve it through the working of outward events are inevitably incomplete and disappointing.

     The toppling of the Geftaky kingdom has been done, accomplished primarily through the instrument of a noble and good man, and some others cut from the same cloth.  Assemblyism still lives, in a diminished fashion, and there is yet a lot of rescue & recovery work to be done there.  Then there are the scattered, the disenfranchised, the decimated to be helped and healed.
     People frequent these BBs & websites who God is calling to His service.  It is hard for me to believe that the service He desires of them is the criminal or civil prosecution of people whose power has been broken, and who God will judge with far greater severity & finality than will ever be achieved by men.  After all, their sin was primarily against Him.

     There is a man here in central Ohio who has been a licensed preacher for probably over half a century.  He is a charlatan who preys upon the ignorant to gain control of their money and property, at which he has been very successful.  He has also been prosecuted, convicted, sentenced and incarcerated for his misdeeds.  While he was in prison, his affairs were faithfully managed by loyal followers, and upon his release he returned to business as usual.  Nothing of any apparent eternal significance was established through his punishment.
     We are not in a position to execute in worldly courts justice for spiritual offenses, nor is it our calling to do so.  If, in the course of godly pursuits, one should have occasion to present evidence to such a court against an enemy of society one should do so, thus rendering unto caesar what is caesar's.  But ours is not to make a crusade of so doing.  Our calling in Christ is far higher and infinitely more important than that.

     That is my opinion.  I regret that it is in criticism of the opinions of others who I respect.

al Hartman

[moonflower2]

     We are not in a position to execute in worldly courts justice for spiritual offenses, nor is it our calling to do so.  If, in the course of godly pursuits, one should have occasion to present evidence to such a court against an enemy of society one should do so, thus rendering unto caesar what is caesar's.  But ours is not to make a crusade of so doing.  Our calling in Christ is far higher and infinitely more important than that.


al Hartman

Whoah!

We as Christians are not above the law of the land. This country was founded on Christian principles and the court system is a result of that; and how ever foul it can become, is there for the protection of the people of this country.

George has been excommunicated and is not "entreatable" regarding his behavior and actions toward any one of us. Anything he receives from the courts is a consequence of his own wrongdoing. God does judge in the long run, but also in the temporal life now. George doesn't deserve anymore leniency for his actions than anyone else in the world does.  Would it make a difference if he had murdered someone? Our courts aren't in existence to try only murderers, but a host of wrongs that can be done against any one in the country.

God can work thru the court system. Governments and court systems have been set up by him, and specific individuals working in them have been allowed by Him to be there, whether they be saved or unsaved, republican or democrat.

We still need the court system. The system may eventually put us all in prison some day, but for now, still affords protection for the majority of us.

Moonflower2

[Kimberley Tobin]

Al:

And what about "illegal" offenses? So, I can, in the "name of God" committ a crime and get away with it, because God's people are to leave "vengeance with the Lord"?  

I think this is ludicrous - but I love you Al.  

I am facing the possibility of child protective services knocking on my door in the not too distant future for seeking psychological help for my children from the damage done in the assembly.  The authorities are going to put my family through the ringer because of the counsel (and pressure) received from these people and you are telling me that I'm just to "leave vengeance with the Lord"??

I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!  If the authorities become involved (as I have been informed they will) then I will absolutely start naming names and bringing these people into the loop.  They are just as culpable as my husband and myself (if not more so).  We were their instrument but they were the catalyst.

Are there other children at risk from this still wicked, evil counsel?  Not in my home, I have repudiated that form of discipline and will never discipline in the same fashion again.  But I'm not so sure about these people who counseled us.

I don't think you've thought this through Al.  Is GG susceptible to repeating the ILLEGAL offenses he has committed?  ABSOLUTELY!  There should be action taken against them, to stop any future ILLEGAL offenses from being committed.

[M2]

Hi Al,

This is my opinion on the matter re. George and Betty Geftakys and their ministry.

They do no deserve to continue in any form of ministry.  Similar to Jim Jones, and Koresh etc.  Where does one draw the line to say that this was evil and this was not.  It is very easy to label the JJones' and the Koresh's as evil, but the Geftakys ministry was evil too IMO.  So many lives scarred and wounded.  All to keep the Geftakys engine going, so that they could line their pockets ETC.

Cowardly and lazy is an apt description for those who only want to be on the receiving end of the benefits of the demise of the Geftakys ministry, but do not want to do anything to further that cause.  Some people absolutely cannot do anything, but there are many that can and do not take the initiative to do so.  When I can, I am doing what I can at my end, little as it may be.  By what I experience I understand very well why the Geftakys ministry continued for as long as it did.  People just do not want to rock the boat.  They are happy in their fog of deception and their friendships and their pride (unwilling to admit that they were wrong).

Hope this helps.
Lord bless,
Marcia

[editor]

         I have also posted this on the RFTWBB, in response to a recent post by Verne.  I regret taking the unpopular position, and stand open to enlightenment and correction.

al Hartman

Only a blunt, direct and straight answer will do here.

Al, your response is full of crap.

I understand clergy abuse, and I understand why people didn't say something before.  Very few people have the courage to stand alone and fight.  Look at 911; only one man, one one plane resisted....but he was successfull and got others to help.  The rest whimpered in their seats while some Arabs with box cutters were leading them to their death.

We owe the man who said,  "let's roll," a huge debt of thanks.

In this situation,  the women were able to come forward because an environment that allowed them to do so was created, via the website.   They came forward and said what happened.  George was excommunicated.  This is good.

However, now George is at it again, along with his boys Testa, McCalister, Matsen-boze, and  perhaps his son Timothy.  There may be others.  

The fact that these women kept silent all those years allowed George to abuse other women, and attract zealous but misguided followers who gave him cash.  If people are going to complain that "someone needs to do something," but do nothing about it themselves then they deserve it.

The women George had sex with could put him away.  Probably not legally, because they were consenting to some degree, but certainly they could put a stop to his ever ministering again.

In the existing Assemblies, the "story" is that there was only one instance, about 15 years ago, and that it was no big deal, and that George repented and made it right with the sister.  This is a lie, and these women, by telling the truth could deliver the fools who still serve in George's house in SF and Sacramento.

I've had it.  I've heard enough.

Don't give me any more garbage about ministy, or descerning spirits and hearts, blah blah blah.  We are talking about adultery, blow-jobs and epic hypocrisy here.  

What is there to discern?

I realize some won't like what I am saying; just realize that I am back in shock mode, and some of you need a hard blow to your thick skulls in order to wake up out of your theoretical, impotent thinking.

You can't plow a field by turning it over in your mind.

Brent

[Jem]

Quote from Brent: (sorry folks, don't know how to do the quote thing.)

"On the other hand, there are husbands married to women whom George abused, and former fiances of women he abused, and they do nothing!  Good riddance!  

It's not my place to tell their stories, or reveal their identities on this forum, although most people know who they are---gossip was always a strong point in The Assembly.  If they don't do anything about it, nothing will get done.

George's ministry will never recover, and the second generation of little George's and their sychophants will not reach the degree of influence that the first did.  I take comfort in that, and in the price I paid to see it happen.

If these women can sleep at night, without perscription drugs I would be surprised.  Why don't they do something?

Oh yeah, it's painful.  Yep, I suppose it is really bad, but does that relieve them of their responsiblilty to see that it doesn't happen again?

One of the women was George's regular squeeze a decade ago.  She didn't warn the next one about what he was like.  George didn't rape anyone...they were willing, although coerced.  These women bear the responsibility to warn others.  They engaged in immoral acts with a married man.  Were they victims....ABSOLUTELY!  However, they are also guilty."

Brent,

This smacks of the worst of assembly behavior. When people were weak or wounded in the assembly--especially if they had just enough strength to leave--we found something more to accuse them of, some other sin, real or imagined) to drive them down. And we did it all without really knowing what in the hell (used in the literal sense) we were talking about.

Brent, do you know what some of these women have done to try to stop George? Do you know what they have personally said to George and Scott and Mike and Jim? And how painful it was to be called liars by them? Are you fully aware of the legal avenues they have persued and are persuing? Many are still learning the depth of their victimization. I can assure you all of them know the depth of their guilt and much of that is not thier to bear. As for their husbands, parents, children, boyfriends, I praise God that some of them have been restrained from doing what they would like to do to George and his ilk.  These victims have enough to deal with without having those closest to them in jail for murder. The men I know are men in the finest sense. They are desperately trying to overcome evil with good. They are trying to rebuild their own smashed houses. They don't need rocks lobbed from the rest of us. They need much prayer, only love, and heaps of leniency.

Wendy Hinman