George and Kingdom Issues

[BenJapheth]

George and the Kingdom

[/u][/b]

Mark C.,

Hey, the other BB wasn't working for me...I think our subject is interesting; so I've jumped over here and created a separate topic.

Yes, I've been misunderstood, I think.  However, Mark you sound like perhaps you're a reformed five point Calvinist (maybe not...just a guess) - I'm not a five pointer.  I'm a two point Calvinist.  I'm about to lay-out a view that is more typical of a Dallas Theological than a Master's Seminary take. So, yes, you've misunderstood. But, I expected it. And, am kind of used to it.

Perhaps, you and I would disagree even with a good understanding of each other's position - But, that's okay as far as I'm concerned - cause at least hardcore reformed believe strongly concerning important biblical issues - strong Gospel.  I'm currently reading an excellent biography of Jonathan Edwards - Jonathan Edwards - A Life by George Marsden - Super! I find much good and substantial profit in the reformed tradition. Of course, extreme is always dangerous and that's what we need to avoid.

However, let me respond and put some other things on the table.  I'm also going to ask my Father-in-law, Chuck Miller, to put out a writing on George's twisted views concerning "Kingdom Issues" which over time became the Assemblies "Heavenly Vision" and how he plagiarized for more than twenty years the writings of men such as Joseph Dillow, Robert Govett, G. H. Lang, R. E. Neighbour, D. M. Panton, G. H. Pember, A. Edwin Wilson, etc...via his secret use of Schoettle Publishing. See:

http://www.inthebeginning.org/schoettle/default.htm.


Perhaps, I should have Lewis Schoettle write-up a history of his relationship with George and how George had a standing order to buy everything and anything Schoettle published - as soon as it came off the press.  And how it was to be mailed secretly to him.  How George wanted NO ONE in the Assemblies to have this material. Lewis attempted to visit Fullerton once.  George heard he was at the door and had the door-keepers turn him away. Fascinating stuff...

Here are some of my thoughts that came to me as I read your response on forgiveness and the kingdom.

- I agree grace is not something of ability - It's God provision to us - our manna -  His unmerited favor - He engages us via grace.  Some submit to Him/to His Grace, others don't. Grace is resistable.

- Christians can resist Grace, some Christians do not persevere to overcome...Vanasse i sot a TULIP guy, I guess - LIP, nope.  Haven't seen it in the word, haven't seen it in experience, either. Chrisitians "persevere" to salvation, of course, but that's already done - no need for perseverance.  Sanctification is in the progressive and the degree of such is subject to risk, therefore, the many warnings are supplied to us. If there were no real object for warning there would be no warning. The "threats" are real cause the consequences are real. If the warnings were about salvation they would then be recommending "deeds" for the solution "to get right" - but, in this case getting right didn't have justification getting right, it had sanctification getting right - No, they were speaking to the already saved. Sanctification is not inevitable in this life nor is it invariable.

- Demas was at one time a faithful worker and later in life, as we have so often seen with Christians we have known, he forsook Paul for "love of this world."  Did he lose his salvation? No.  Was Paul wrong about him being a Chrisitian since "he just proved" - as some would insist - he wasn't really saved? No, why force the scriptures like that?  He was an apostate.  Saved, but not an overcomer.  He began with grace, but didn't finish that way.  He'll be saved, but so as through fire.

- I believe the Laodiceans were Christians.  I don't believe they were overcomers.

- There is such a thing as a carnal Christian and there will be future "Kingdom" consequences. Distance versus nearness to the throne.  The "winners" get crowns. Why? so that they can throw them at the feet of Christ cause all their deeds were done by GRACE and they're really Christ's crowns "won" through His effort on the cross.  So, one could say - "See then we'll all be equal anyway, none of us will have crowns in our hands when it's all over cause they'll all be at Christ's feet."  Yes!!!! Exactly!!!! Yes, cause He will be all in all - EVERYTHING will return to Him.  But, the folks who throw their crowns before Him will have the joy of actually bringing Him glory - WHICH IS THE REAL REWARD. Get it?  The joy is vicarious participation in the Kingdom of God. We can actually be linked to the glory of the place...Wow!  All won't have this facility in glorifying Christ. Christ wants it for all...it's available to all.  Carnal Chrisitians won't have that participatory facility...Tragically they won't.  The limits of that future participation and "access" will be set by our own faithfulness or lack thereof. The focus isn't others - it is on us.

- Works, of course! Grace works! Effortless, burdenless grace works!  It's all Him...Not my mustering, His mustering through me to His world.  All Christ...All grace.  Works are only dirty if there self-generated. We're speaking of grace centered deeds.

- Don't try for works - try for Him - this is the "wantotacracy" of the Kingdom I was referring to...As C.S. Lewis says, "In that future place everyone will get what they were seeking."  The deeds will follow - no effort necessary.  Don't try to do works - seek Him and his Kingdom. If you try to be sincere, you probably just failed.

- There will be consequences for our not forgiving others who sin against us - reconciliation to God. Bitterness toward your wife hinders more than your prayers...It'll hinder other things both here and now...as well as there and later.  The grave will not somehow force off "hatreds." It must be chosen, your will cannot be violated - on earth nor in heaven.

- Christians are born the same - by grace - but they go on for the Lord, or not, in a variety of ways by grace.

- Choosing Him - Some Chrisitians seek Him more.  Wouldn't it be terrific if all believers we're crying out - "Oh, Lord! Come quickly!"  More than a local church thing - this is universal thing and applies to everyone as well as an individual thing and it applies to every particular person.

- "Wanting" Christ does not come at the expense of others.  It's not an elitist race - God desires all to win.  Each one of us needs to run in such a way as we compete according to the rules. God's grace makes my run effortless -His load is easy, His burden light. Choose Life!  Choose Grace!  Run and rest in His grace.

- The enemies are the world, the flesh and the devil...The spiritual battle is the old versus the new man.

- These are not George's views, George stole the views of others like Lang, Govett, Pember, Panton, Dillow, Chitwood, Hodges, et. al. and twisted them.  When George got done with his pithy "bible teaching" it became "a killing tome"...the physicians scalpel became a blunt-hurtful cutting knife.  

- George twisted good men's insights; good men's writings just as He did the Bible.

- George used the bible, but we don't throw it out.  Some of us need to try cornflakes again for the very first time.

- Closeness to Christ is not - me vs.them - being close to Christ does not come at the expense of others. What heresy!

- The buffeting is "of our own body"...Not pushing others aside to win the prize.

- Grace is not "mustered" - It is provided like salvation as a gift "His ability" in us. We have only to submit.

- Volition is involved - not work - choice, we choose He works...He works out through us. Effortless effort.

- God desires all to overcome, just like He desires all to be saved.  The choice is ours - The daily choices are ours to crucify the flesh with its desires.  His grace supplies the way, His grace supplies the truth, His grace supplies the life.

- Christ's death was for all - Atonement is limited only by choice, sanctification is the same.

- Salvation is by grace, overcoming is by grace - overcoming by works - His works through us - Not our works.

- We're not talking about justification - we're talking about degrees of sanctification - His working through us.  Stars vary in glory and so will the saints.

- The Assemblyites have been traumitized by George's twisted views...There is a natural revulsion to all his inclinations.  I understand this.

- When we stand before Christ, we'll rejoice in His ability to both justify and sanctify us.  

- There will be tears and regret in the kingdom, not until the termination of the age will every tear be wiped away.

- He worked to save us and he is working to work through us.

- Just like Salvation is not inevitable for all men. Sanctification is not inevitable for all believers. "Many are called and few are chosen" is speaking about disciples.

- Judas, blasphemers, false prophets - Forgiveness? I impute nothing to them. I merely rebuke, avoid, and fearfully distance myself - and Abhor what God has witnessed against.

- "Judas, the devil, false prophets do you forgive them?"...I never did not forgive them. I never held anything against them.  They sin against God. Forgiveness is irrelevant. Accountability is relevant - forgiveness isn't.

- Merit doesn't come from self, it's from Christ, but it's more than merit to merely know...It's merit to do. Not me working; rather it's He working through me...I need to permit God to work - choice.  The "work" of God is to believe on Him.


Chuck Vanasse
chuck@vanant.com

::c:v::

[Mark C.]

Hi Chuck!

  I can't seem to get onto the other BB either.  I'm glad that it just isn't my problem as I just bought this here new computer with 2.5 gigs. worth of power!  
  You said quite a bit in your last post and there is no way I can address all these issues in just one post.  Also, we may need to explain a lot of the terms that we are using in our discussion because this topic probably contains a whole bunch of theology that recent Assembly members won't understand. (i.e.  Dallas, Masters, Govett, etc.)
  I have tried to avoid arguments that have little to do with GG issues, as while they are very profitable to discuss, it probably isn't what is most needed by those seeking help in their recovery from the Assembly.  I believe the Gospel is simple and it is that simplicity that needs to be central in the recovery of lives from toxic faith under GG.
  I am not a 5 point Calvinist, nor do I suscribe to Masters College "Lordship Salvation" teaching.  So it would appear we have not understood each other well.  I have been out for 12 years and there are still certain phrases and words that can raise my hackles and cause me to jump to conclusions (sorry).
  There are some things that you have mentioned that I think need to be made clear, though you don't intend to support GG teaching, one could interpret them as supportive of his conditional sanctification teaching.  I love many teachers who suscribe to Dallas Theological Seminary views btw, especially Charles Ryrie.
  (for others info. who may not know:  Evangelical Christians, while understanding that salvation is all of grace, do disagree as to the nature of the Christian life.  Reformed teachers, like Masters College, do not believe in the concept of a "carnal Christian", while Dallas Theo. does.  I don't think either comes near to supporting GG's conditional sanctification teaching however.)
   You mentioned that "it is not a matter of works, but of choice", in other words you seem to believe that choice is not an issue of merit.  You also seem to understand faith as being synonomous with our choosing.  In Romans we're told it is not a matter of mans choice, but we are chosen by God; "not of him who wills, but on God who shows mercy."
   GG got around this by saying that the above truth is for initial salvation only, and by creating the false notion that the Christian life is lived by a different definition of grace and of faith once saved.  GG taught that grace only comes to the believer who is performing, and that this performance comes from what he called, "a reckoning walk of faith."  
  This new definition of faith for the Christian meant that by our volition we could call up the power of the Spirit to work in our lives (a kind of magic key to actualize God's power in our lives.)  As we continued to "excercise our wills by faith" we began the work of sanctification where we eventually put sin to death and entered a new higher Christian experience where we could actually achieve total victory over sin.  To the degree we accomplished this we would be rewarded and failure could mean forever being banished into outer darkness, where is weeping and gnashing of teeth, and the worm dieth not!!!  Oh yes, we would still be saved according to GG; whatever that might mean now!!
  I have developed some opinions as to how grace actually works in the Christian life and it is my decided belief that grace does not work in the Christian via the means GG teaches above.
  We are all different, and as such it is very difficult for us to understand what God is really doing in the life of another Christian.  We may see a weak individual with a nasty habit that they can't seem to overcome and say either, "he couldn't be saved", or "he is a carnal Christian", but God may look down and see a man who was raised under conditional sanctification teaching, who tried for years to actualize his sanctification, and is broken and depressed over his failure.  How God wants to get to that man with the message that He loves him and expects nothing from his own ability to either "make Jesus Lord of his life", or "overcome his carnal appetites."
   It was these kind of broken individuals who in great desperation came to Jesus in the Gospels and sought his healing, friendship, and love stronger than death!  It is this true blessed relationship with Christ that began in salvation that is the means wherby God will continue to work in our hearts.  
   In my view of the Christian life the most important thing we can "do" is to be honest with Him and trust that He will never leave us nor forsake us; trusting that he is our closest friend and the dedicated lover of our souls.   It is our honest admission of failure and need of Him, not our choosing, that brings His Spirit to our lives.

                                        God's richest blessing,  Mark C.

[BenJapheth]

Mark,

I agree with everything you've said, I think. Substitute, perhaps, "receive Him" for choice. I'm using choice in the classical "Campus Crusade" definition - "Put your faith in Christ."  The active voice is employed over and over again throughout scripture and it's not construed as a work.  When it is by grace all choices or faith in Christ or receiving Christ is through Him - not by works lest any man should boast.

This is true of salvation - we must receive him - the activity or choice of receiving.  It's not imposed.  So, in sanctification we permit - allow - surrender (choice to surrender) to His being Lord of our life.  We can't be born again and again and again...But, we must crucify the flesh daily - again and again and again...This is sanctification.  Same grace is involved in both.

This follows exactly right down the line of Charles Ryrie's So Great a Salvation So, if you're aligned with him, then I'm aligned with you...One of his peers Zane Hodges has done several wonderful works on Grace, such as Absolutely Free. These guys are very familiar with these "Kingdom works" at:

http://www.inthebeginning.org/schoettle/default.htm

and are generally quite sympathetic to them.  So, are institutions like Moody Bible College.

Sorry, about the wrong conclusion concerning the Calvinism. Forgive me, Mark.  However, this kind of wrangling about "choice for Christ" feels very reformed....like deja vous all over again.

It would be very difficult, perhaps, for us to interact about this topic of the Kingdom since your background in the Assembly and George's heavy emphasis on Fear Factors has created a need to define numerous terms and presuppositions. Probably a face-to-face would be best some day, if you care to.  For example, most of these "Kingdom" authors refer to the negative consequences as temporal verities since they are limited to the Kingdom age.  You state George was indicating this was a forever state. The scripture doesn't speak much about the characteristics and aspects of these things and it is clear George wandered into many dangerous bogs.  It seemed to always get back to control - His control not the Holy Spirit's.

My point is that there is a Kingdom coming and the Lord has rewards as well as verities for his children. And, we must work the works of Him who called us as long as it is day; for the time is coming when no man shall work.  The Lord is coming - We are urged to be ready!

Over the last seven months I've often seen "half-baked" Kingdom concepts floated out and shot down.  People say the flour was bad, there wasn't enough salt, it was poisonous" - I'm saying - "No! No! No! It was only half-baked.  Your caserole needed to be cooked at 375 degrees for 30 minutes. Lack of cooking was making it poisonous."

Hey, I'm for getting rid of the slimey bath water but your putting some pretty babies out the window.  Be careful. Yet, I totally understand - totally.  

I feel bad for you ex-assembly folk...I really do.

The encouragements and the warnings to the seven churches are there for a reason.  Faithfulness does matter.  We have a kind master who has made ample provision that we would enter his labor in the joy of his strength - AMPLE!

The goodnews saves us, and it's is even better news that keeps us - His Kingdom is coming!

He's held out crowns to His followers.  If he wants me to want them - then who am I to refuse my Master? - Besides when the crowns of the kingdom are dazzling under his feet I want a as many as possible of my crowns to be thrown under his feet - Remember they are really His crowns - cause sanctification is totally by grace - or at least crowns that I got to throw down before Him to reflect the King's glory.  I want to maximize my participation in glorifying our Master...All of us should want to.

I want to be integrated into this value-chain of Glory.

Thy Kingdom come! Come!

::c:v::

Hi Chuck!

  I can't seem to get onto the other BB either.  I'm glad that it just isn't my problem as I just bought this here new computer with 2.5 gigs. worth of power!  
  You said quite a bit in your last post and there is no way I can address all these issues in just one post.  Also, we may need to explain a lot of the terms that we are using in our discussion because this topic probably contains a whole bunch of theology that recent Assembly members won't understand. (i.e.  Dallas, Masters, Govett, etc.)
  I have tried to avoid arguments that have little to do with GG issues, as while they are very profitable to discuss, it probably isn't what is most needed by those seeking help in their recovery from the Assembly.  I believe the Gospel is simple and it is that simplicity that needs to be central in the recovery of lives from toxic faith under GG.
  I am not a 5 point Calvinist, nor do I suscribe to Masters College "Lordship Salvation" teaching.  So it would appear we have not understood each other well.  I have been out for 12 years and there are still certain phrases and words that can raise my hackles and cause me to jump to conclusions (sorry).
  There are some things that you have mentioned that I think need to be made clear, though you don't intend to support GG teaching, one could interpret them as supportive of his conditional sanctification teaching.  I love many teachers who suscribe to Dallas Theological Seminary views btw, especially Charles Ryrie.
  (for others info. who may not know:  Evangelical Christians, while understanding that salvation is all of grace, do disagree as to the nature of the Christian life.  Reformed teachers, like Masters College, do not believe in the concept of a "carnal Christian", while Dallas Theo. does.  I don't think either comes near to supporting GG's conditional sanctification teaching however.)
   You mentioned that "it is not a matter of works, but of choice", in other words you seem to believe that choice is not an issue of merit.  You also seem to understand faith as being synonomous with our choosing.  In Romans we're told it is not a matter of mans choice, but we are chosen by God; "not of him who wills, but on God who shows mercy."
   GG got around this by saying that the above truth is for initial salvation only, and by creating the false notion that the Christian life is lived by a different definition of grace and of faith once saved.  GG taught that grace only comes to the believer who is performing, and that this performance comes from what he called, "a reckoning walk of faith."  
  This new definition of faith for the Christian meant that by our volition we could call up the power of the Spirit to work in our lives (a kind of magic key to actualize God's power in our lives.)  As we continued to "excercise our wills by faith" we began the work of sanctification where we eventually put sin to death and entered a new higher Christian experience where we could actually achieve total victory over sin.  To the degree we accomplished this we would be rewarded and failure could mean forever being banished into outer darkness, where is weeping and gnashing of teeth, and the worm dieth not!!!  Oh yes, we would still be saved according to GG; whatever that might mean now!!
  I have developed some opinions as to how grace actually works in the Christian life and it is my decided belief that grace does not work in the Christian via the means GG teaches above.
  We are all different, and as such it is very difficult for us to understand what God is really doing in the life of another Christian.  We may see a weak individual with a nasty habit that they can't seem to overcome and say either, "he couldn't be saved", or "he is a carnal Christian", but God may look down and see a man who was raised under conditional sanctification teaching, who tried for years to actualize his sanctification, and is broken and depressed over his failure.  How God wants to get to that man with the message that He loves him and expects nothing from his own ability to either "make Jesus Lord of his life", or "overcome his carnal appetites."
   It was these kind of broken individuals who in great desperation came to Jesus in the Gospels and sought his healing, friendship, and love stronger than death!  It is this true blessed relationship with Christ that began in salvation that is the means wherby God will continue to work in our hearts.  
   In my view of the Christian life the most important thing we can "do" is to be honest with Him and trust that He will never leave us nor forsake us; trusting that he is our closest friend and the dedicated lover of our souls.   It is our honest admission of failure and need of Him, not our choosing, that brings His Spirit to our lives.

                                        God's richest blessing,  Mark C.

[Mark C.]

Hi again Chuck and other interested folks!

  I have and love the book by Ryrie "So Great Salvation" and would recommend it to others who are plagued with searching within for assurance of their salvation.
   I'm not familiar with this "Kingdom" teaching that you mention and I probably should research it before I discuss it with you.
   I live in the San Diego area and I get the idea that you live in Nebraska, so though a face to face would be great, I don't think that it would be so easy.  That probably would solve a lot of our communication problems via these blasted fancy typewriters!
   As I understand Ryrie, he clearly is a dispensationalist who believes that one should find that we are not in the Kingdom age, but in the age of the church.  I know that this teaching has evolved from Chafer's day and is not so hard and fast as before, but that would seem to preclude the concept that we are under an obligation to perform to earn the Kingdom.
   Zane Hodges seems to me to make too much of mans effort in regard to the Christian life and proclaims a kind of "trimumphalism" that ignores the facts of Rom. 7.  This is where I really stand with the traditional interpretation of the Reformed re. the Christian life.
   Besides all the different nuances of teaching we have discussed there is the important facts of my own experiences as a Christian.  I am not a super Christian, nor have I ever been.  I am not even a super person, and am painfully aware that I am a sinner everyday.
    If I am to be rewarded for by ability to successfully motivate myself to lay hold and daily put my self to death I'm afraid I will be left far behind and the Kingdom will be for those more able than I.
   Let me share an example:  At the end of JN.13 Jesus tells Peter he will deny Him.  Peter insists he won't and yet Jesus knows he will, yet Jesus goes right into JN. 14 where He tells the disciples "not to let their hearts be troubled"-- and "that he is preparing a place in Heaven for them!"  You do not prepare a place for those you don't expect to arrive.
   Peter, after his failure and Christ's death, goes off fishing in despair (self pity, self loathing, a return to the world?) But Jesus comes and gets him.  I know you could say Peter didn't yet have the Spirit of Acts 1:8, but we all know Peter still blows it big time after this several times (Gal. 2).
   What I'm getting at is salvation, sanctification, joint participation in ressurection life, etc. is not by means of a belief system per se , but is a personal relationship that I have with a real person.  This real person meets me not at my times of triumph, but when I'm broken and contrite as Peter was.  The key to experiencing the Spirit isn't by means of my great intentions to lay down my life, but in the admission I'm just as selfish as the next guy, and probably worse.
   Honest, but very unlikely folks will be seated close to Jesus because it is these wounded pilgrims, His little ones, who are just innocent and dumb enough to cry out to Him in their honest despair.  Remember we must become as children to enter the Kingdom.
   This is why I believe those wounded in the Assembly have an opportunity to discover that Jesus is eager to draw near, and though they walk with a limp the rest of their lives, they will have discovered that God has preserved their lives and given them the name of Prince with God!  We never meet God halfway;  all of spirituality and my life in Him is from Him alone!  
   Again, honesty will cause us to conclude that our efforts, no matter how we attempt to spiritualize them by calling them "faithfulness" etc., only show that He is the Faithful one and to Him belongs [all/b] the glory!!
   I know there are many scriptural arguments that need to be made to underscore my point, not the least the Churches of Rev., but this is getting too long now and I have to get up early tomorrow.  I trust we can continue our conversation and maybe others can comment whether they find this discussion helpful or not.
                                               God Bless,  Mark C.

[editor]

Hi Guys:

Interesting discussion.  However, I just want to caution everyone with regard to these issues.  Not all Christians see this stuff the same way, and we need to be careful about causing a schism, whether we call it reformed (the real truth), or Kingdom Theology(The real truth) etc.

I am not trying to be a moderator here, nor am I trying to convince anyone what I believe with regard to these topics, because I know and respect people who have differing views with regard to free will, election, conditional sanctification, etc.  Regardless of what I think, these people are true Christians, and have been ministers of Christ in my life.

Again, I think these things are good to discuss, and downright fascinating to listen to, but we should be careful.

There are brilliant minds on both sides, and convincing arguments to be made from either camp.

I will opine only this one thought:

If I were in charge of where ex-assembly people should go, (thankfully I am not) I would have them attend a vibrant, growing reformed church.  One with young people and families, smiling faces and contemporary music, as well as hymns.

Why? Because regardless of where a person is coming from, the reformed guys preach to Grace of God as good or better than anyone else, and THAT IS PRECISELY WHAT ASSEMBLY PEOPLE NEED TO HEAR, for a long, long time.

All this other stuff won't make any sense at all until our distorted ideas about grace are ironed out.  You can't go wrong with reformed theology in this respect.  It's tried and tested, and they are definitely NOT confused about grace and works.

My opinion.

Brent

[BenJapheth]

Zane Hodges seems to me to make too much of mans effort in regard to the Christian life and proclaims a kind of "triumphalism" that ignores the facts of Rom. 7

Zane Hodges is a biblical scholar...He stresses the way of discipleship - Navigator like..You know many from the assemblies brissle at the mere mention of encouragement to respond and obey...Do you Mark?  Perhaps, cause you were abused? Like a woman who brissles at the suggestion to obey and submit to her husband because she saw her sister regularly beaten by her husband.

If I am to be rewarded for by ability to successfully motivate myself ...

Whoa! I never implied this...."Motivating yourself?"  That is assembly speak...Or, an ex-assembly reaction to what I wrote. "by ability to successfully..." What??? Never said this, either.  Again, Christ is all - including our ability.

I'm afraid I will be left far behind and the Kingdom will be for those more able than I.

"More able than I"...?  Your words reveal a disconnect between what I'm writing and what your getting.  Christ is our ability, He is our facility....We're complete in Him - By grace. He has made a provision for our discipleship.  Will we receive?  Again, this is not a comparative beauty pagent...we're not in a competition...This is not about performance.  Perform is fake - life is real.  Christ has called us to life.  He has given grace for us to follow.  Those that would save their lives will lose them - He's talking to Christians.

You do not prepare a place for those you don't expect to arrive?

Nope, but did Judas arrive?
 

Participation in ressurection life, etc. is not by means of a belief system per se

Amen! ...But, what troubles me is why would you say that?  I not suggesting a belief system.  Whenever someone broaches faithfulness and the pursuit of discipleship do you see "belief system"...?

but is a personal relationship that I have with a real person.  This real person meets me not at my times of triumph, but when I'm broken and contrite as Peter was.  The key to experiencing the Spirit isn't by means of my great intentions to lay down my life, but in the admission I'm just as selfish as the next guy, and probably worse.
   Honest, but very unlikely folks will be seated close to Jesus because it is these wounded pilgrims, His little ones, who are just innocent and dumb enough to cry out to Him in their honest despair.  Remember we must become as children to enter the Kingdom.
   This is why I believe those wounded in the Assembly have an opportunity to discover that Jesus is eager to draw near, and though they walk with a limp the rest of their lives, they will have discovered that God has preserved their lives and given them the name of Prince with God!  We never meet God halfway;  all of spirituality and my life in Him is from Him alone!  
   Again, honesty will cause us to conclude that our efforts, no matter how we attempt to spiritualize them by calling them "faithfulness" etc., only show that He is the Faithful one and to Him belongs [all/b] the glory!!
   I know there are many scriptural arguments that need to be made to underscore my point, not the least the Churches of Rev., but this is getting too long now and I have to get up early tomorrow.  I trust we can continue our conversation and maybe others can comment whether they find this discussion helpful or not.

Yep, I agree with these last few paragraphs.

[BenJapheth]

Brent, this may surprise you, but I agree.  All the lousy teaching from George on the "Kingdom, etc." lead generally to the ruin of the hearers on this subject.  

Another point - By my observation, knowing about the teachings of the Kingdom doesn't necessarily change lives or make people "overcomers."

This Kingodm stuff is generally a Plymouth Brethren domain...If you were to pigeon-hole me - that is my background - a PB.  Saved at 17, by 19 a Plymouth Brethren. That's been my orientation for 25 years.  Although, I love Brethren books, I love their ideas, their insights, their scholarship, their eagerness, their seriousness about spiritual things, their focus on the Lord's table, blah-blah-blah...I find them generally the most Pharisee like people on the planet.

Even though they're right about almost all biblical subjects - they disgust me and are the least gracious folk I've ever encountered in my travels around the globe and among my readings through-out the entire history of the church.

So smart, but so very far from the mark.

In a word...Graceless.  

P.S. You know as I read this book on Jonathan Edwards I have yet to find much if anything I agree with him on concerning "church principles"...However, I love his pursuit of God.  His Christlike example.  His love for his  towns-people.  The Great Awakening happened because Jonathan Edwards was seeking first the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness not because he had a "properly functioning new testament church."

It's just hard for us to arrive at the fact that Jesus wants us to be children, dumb sheep that simply follow, Mark is right -Jesus has a bias for those with a gimpy limp - dare I say it - Jesus looks for losers - folks that know they're losers. People who have a lot more questions than answers.

You know - if it weren't for Jesus, I wouldn't want to be a Chrisitian.

Hi Guys:

Interesting discussion.  However, I just want to caution everyone with regard to these issues.  Not all Christians see this stuff the same way, and we need to be careful about causing a schism, whether we call it reformed (the real truth), or Kingdom Theology(The real truth) etc.

I am not trying to be a moderator here, nor am I trying to convince anyone what I believe with regard to these topics, because I know and respect people who have differing views with regard to free will, election, conditional sanctification, etc.  Regardless of what I think, these people are true Christians, and have been ministers of Christ in my life.

Again, I think these things are good to discuss, and downright fascinating to listen to, but we should be careful.

There are brilliant minds on both sides, and convincing arguments to be made from either camp.

I will opine only this one thought:

If I were in charge of where ex-assembly people should go, (thankfully I am not) I would have them attend a vibrant, growing reformed church.  One with young people and families, smiling faces and contemporary music, as well as hymns.

Why? Because regardless of where a person is coming from, the reformed guys preach to Grace of God as good or better than anyone else, and THAT IS PRECISELY WHAT ASSEMBLY PEOPLE NEED TO HEAR, for a long, long time.

All this other stuff won't make any sense at all until our distorted ideas about grace are ironed out.  You can't go wrong with reformed theology in this respect.  It's tried and tested, and they are definitely NOT confused about grace and works.

My opinion.

Brent

[M2]

This Kingodm stuff is generally a Plymouth Brethren domain...If you were to pigeon-hole me - that is my background - a PB.  Saved at 17, by 19 a Plymouth Brethren. That's been my orientation for 25 years.  Although, I love Brethren books, I love their ideas, their insights, their scholarship, their eagerness, their seriousness about spiritual things, their focus on the Lord's table, blah-blah-blah...I find them generally the most Pharisee like people on the planet.

Even though they're right about almost all biblical subjects - they disgust me and are the least gracious folk I've ever encountered in my travels around the globe and among my readings through-out the entire history of the church.

So smart, but so very far from the mark.

In a word...Graceless.  

P.S. You know as I read this book on Jonathan Edwards I have yet to find much if anything I agree with him on concerning "church principles"...However, I love his pursuit of God.  His Christlike example.  His love for his  towns-people.  The Great Awakening happened because Jonathan Edwards was seeking first the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness not because he had a "properly functioning new testament church."

It's just hard for us to arrive at the fact that Jesus wants us to be children, dumb sheep that simply follow, Mark is right -Jesus has a bias for those with a gimpy limp - dare I say it - Jesus looks for losers - folks that know they're losers. People who have a lot more questions than answers.

You know - if it weren't for Jesus, I wouldn't want to be a Chrisitian.

Looks like you have a love/hate relationship with the PB.
Are you still going to a Brethren gathering?
I am 'church hunting' and have not settled on a place of fellowship yet.

Marcia

[BenJapheth]

Marcia,

Our family meets with seven other families in our home (we alternate between our house and another home). Our gathering is "Brethren-like"...but no one knows that there is a precedent for gatherings like this, accept for perhaps our family and one other.  We're VERY loose...Lots of us have come from abusive church backgrounds.  We just say we're a home church.  We're in Kansas and we live in a suburb on the Southern edge of Kansas City - close to the country.  Lots of families home church in our area - Sometimes we go to each others home gatherings.

Brent's advice is good.  In fact, I think it's REAL good counsel.  I wouldn't necessarily jump into a home church or a PB type gathering for a long while unless you feel strongly lead.

Pray and let the Lord lead you...There is no pattern or formula.  Welcome to REALLY being lead of the Lord.  

You're free!

::c:v::

This Kingodm stuff is generally a Plymouth Brethren domain...If you were to pigeon-hole me - that is my background - a PB.  Saved at 17, by 19 a Plymouth Brethren. That's been my orientation for 25 years.  Although, I love Brethren books, I love their ideas, their insights, their scholarship, their eagerness, their seriousness about spiritual things, their focus on the Lord's table, blah-blah-blah...I find them generally the most Pharisee like people on the planet.

Even though they're right about almost all biblical subjects - they disgust me and are the least gracious folk I've ever encountered in my travels around the globe and among my readings through-out the entire history of the church.

So smart, but so very far from the mark.

In a word...Graceless.  

P.S. You know as I read this book on Jonathan Edwards I have yet to find much if anything I agree with him on concerning "church principles"...However, I love his pursuit of God.  His Christlike example.  His love for his  towns-people.  The Great Awakening happened because Jonathan Edwards was seeking first the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness not because he had a "properly functioning new testament church."

It's just hard for us to arrive at the fact that Jesus wants us to be children, dumb sheep that simply follow, Mark is right -Jesus has a bias for those with a gimpy limp - dare I say it - Jesus looks for losers - folks that know they're losers. People who have a lot more questions than answers.

You know - if it weren't for Jesus, I wouldn't want to be a Chrisitian.

Looks like you have a love/hate relationship with the PB.
Are you still going to a Brethren gathering?
I am 'church hunting' and have not settled on a place of fellowship yet.

Marcia

[Mark C.]

Hi Chuck and Others!
   Brent is quite right in warning us re. the danger of polarizing the discussion here with our strongly held opinions.  As I've mentioned there are good Christian people on both sides of this argument whose positions I respect greatly and who have also helped me very much.
  As to the nature of Grace I would recommend the book by Ryrie, "So Great Salvation" (earlier mentioned), "Grace" by Lewis Sperry Chafer, and from the Reformed camp, " A Theology Of The Holy Spirit", by Bruner, and published by Eerdmans.  All of these books are written from scholars who come from different traditions and yet they clearly understand the Grace of God.
   I apologize Chuck if you feel that I'm putting words in your mouth, and it may be as you say I'm reacting to what GG meant by some of these "Kingdom" concepts, but I feel that I must make it clear to Ex-Assemblyites that our relationship with God is not conditioned on our performance.
   Romans 14: 1 tells us to, "Accept him whose faith is weak without passing judgment on disputable matters."  Paul takes it for granted that there will be those among us whose faith is weak and basically tells those that are "strong" to let other people  have their own opinions on non essential things, and don't make it an issue, because they don't answer to us, but to the Lord (and He is able to make them to stand).  There did seem to be a kind of competitive culture that was developing in the early church and it seems the "strong" felt it their duty to manage the "weak", for their own good of course.
   I am not suggesting that you support such a concept, but the above culture of "strong and weak" that I mentioned above was heightened to an incredible degree in the Assembly.  This kind of competitive spirit was driven via the teaching of conditional sanctification, winning the Kingdom, a low view of what we received at salvation, and a very high view of our responsibility to achieve the completion of what God began in salvation.
  For recovery purposes the above distortions must be countered with a strong dose of unconditional love and grace.  I agree with Brent that the best place to hear a consistent message re. grace is a Reformed church (myself personally, I don't care for the modern music much and prefer the old fuddy duddy stuff  )
   I'm afraid "calls to pursue the high calling" will only bring despair to those who still labor under what that meant in the Assembly, and it will take some years to shake the decades of indoctrination that formed the false understanding.  
   We never get beyond the simple Gospel message and it not only is the way we start as Christians, but the means by which we are brought to Glory (the Kingdom).  This needs to be our focus as believers, and especially for those who have lived a distortion of the Gospel for many years.  As with Peter, Jesus will find us in our confusion and despair and bring us His healing grace, reminding us of His great love for us, and creating in us a love for Him and for His sheep.  The key is His faithfulness, not ours, or grace is not grace. (Rom:11:6).
                                    God is Blessed,  Mark C.

[BenJapheth]

Hi Chuck and Others!
   Brent is quite right in warning us re. the danger of polarizing the discussion here with our strongly held opinions.  As I've mentioned there are good Christian people on both sides of this argument whose positions I respect greatly and who have also helped me very much.
  As to the nature of Grace I would recommend the book by Ryrie, "So Great Salvation" (earlier mentioned), "Grace" by Lewis Sperry Chafer, and from the Reformed camp, " A Theology Of The Holy Spirit", by Bruner, and published by Eerdmans.  All of these books are written from scholars who come from different traditions and yet they clearly understand the Grace of God.
   I apologize Chuck if you feel that I'm putting words in your mouth, and it may be as you say I'm reacting to what GG meant by some of these "Kingdom" concepts, but I feel that I must make it clear to Ex-Assemblyites that our relationship with God is not conditioned on our performance.
   Romans 14: 1 tells us to, "Accept him whose faith is weak without passing judgment on disputable matters."  Paul takes it for granted that there will be those among us whose faith is weak and basically tells those that are "strong" to let other people  have their own opinions on non essential things, and don't make it an issue, because they don't answer to us, but to the Lord (and He is able to make them to stand).  There did seem to be a kind of competitive culture that was developing in the early church and it seems the "strong" felt it their duty to manage the "weak", for their own good of course.
   I am not suggesting that you support such a concept, but the above culture of "strong and weak" that I mentioned above was heightened to an incredible degree in the Assembly.  This kind of competitive spirit was driven via the teaching of conditional sanctification, winning the Kingdom, a low view of what we received at salvation, and a very high view of our responsibility to achieve the completion of what God began in salvation.
  For recovery purposes the above distortions must be countered with a strong dose of unconditional love and grace.  I agree with Brent that the best place to hear a consistent message re. grace is a Reformed church (myself personally, I don't care for the modern music much and prefer the old fuddy duddy stuff  )
   I'm afraid "calls to pursue the high calling" will only bring despair to those who still labor under what that meant in the Assembly, and it will take some years to shake the decades of indoctrination that formed the false understanding.  
   We never get beyond the simple Gospel message and it not only is the way we start as Christians, but the means by which we are brought to Glory (the Kingdom).  This needs to be our focus as believers, and especially for those who have lived a distortion of the Gospel for many years.  As with Peter, Jesus will find us in our confusion and despair and bring us His healing grace, reminding us of His great love for us, and creating in us a love for Him and for His sheep.  The key is His faithfulness, not ours, or grace is not grace. (Rom:11:6).
                                    God is Blessed,  Mark C.

I agree...

::c:v::