Does the Bible teach unconditional forgiveness?

[BenJapheth]

Verne,

Your question - "Does the Bible teach unconditional forgiveness?"

Answer - Yes.

In my opinion, it does teach unconditional forgiveness. Nothing I've read so far convinces me to the contrary. If this is an error I can't see how - scripturally or otherwise. Feel free to help me. However, if I'm on the wrong side, it appears to be the safer wrong side.  

Again, how can I not forgive anyone at anytime in light of my own sin? - Including "A Judas." Forgiveness, however, doesn't mean I'm indifferent - issues of discipline, warnings, judgement, severe actions are necessary. Point is - I'm not Jesus. When Jesus broke the news about a betrayer each disciple looked to himself and was afraid "Could be me!" Judas do I forgive him? It's irrelevant I impute nothing to Judas. He didn't betray me - he betrayed the Lord. I see him and I fear it could have been me - who knows I probably would have been worse - I may have kept the money and not had the decency to hang myself.  The difference between Judas and Peter, one can argue, is only context - One was the confessor to the Son of God and the other was the son of perdition - Judas betrayed Christ, Peter denied Him.

George needs to be judged and we Christians need to participate in his discipline and "judgment"...But, our role in judging the world is yet future.  Do I forgive George for what he did to my family?  Yes, and I pity him - poor slob.  Is he right with God and man - No! But, because I have forgiven him - I may be one step ahead of some who still struggle with fits of bitterness - and that's where unforgiveness goes.  In fact, I think those who have "forgiven the guilty" are the very ones qualified to distribute the justice - If the Lord sees fit.

"Does the Bible teach unconditional forgiveness?" ...Yes.

[vernecarty]

Verne,

Your question - "Does the Bible teach unconditional forgiveness?"

Answer - Yes.

I tell you therefore, all sins and slanders are forgivable for men, but slander about the  Spirit will not be forgiven. If one should speak a word against the Son of Man he may be forgiven, but if he speaks against the Holy Spirit it will not be forgiven him either in this age or in the age to come
Matthew 12:31-32

Please be careful of trying to invoke any argument that suggests God's standard for forgiveness is different from what He expects of us - that is not a tenable position(Ephesians 4:32).
If you contend that the Bible teaches unconditional forgiveness, we have to throw out Matthew 12:31-32
My aforementioned uncertainty of course has to do with what exactly constitutes slander against the Holy Spirit. I have some personal musings about this some of which I shared on the "Convincing Counterfeit" thread on the other BB but I don't want to be dogmatic. Your position would have us believe that while that is one sin God explicitly states He will never extend forgiveness for, the we on the other hand would be required to do so...
Verne

[BenJapheth]

Verne, not being God, I don't know when someone has blasphemed the Holy Spirit.  

So, as far as others are concerned I forgive all men at all times for all things.

Verne,

Your question - "Does the Bible teach unconditional forgiveness?"

Answer - Yes.

I tell you therefore, all sins and slanders are forgivable for men, but slander about the  Spirit will not be forgiven. If one should speak a word against the Son of Man he may be forgiven, but if he speaks against the Holy Spirit it will not be forgiven him either in this age or in the age to come
Matthew 12:31-32

Please be careful of trying to invoke any argument that suggests God's standard for forgiveness is different that what He expects of us - that is not a tenable position.
If you contend that the Bible teaches unconditional forgiveness, we have to throw out Matthew 12:31-32
My aforementioned uncertainty of course has to do with what exactly constitutes slander agaisnt the Holy Spirit. Your position would have us believe that while that is one sin God explicitly states He will never extend forgiveness for, the we on the other hand would be required to do so...
Verne

[vernecarty]

Verne, not being God, I don't know when someone has blasphemed the Holy Spirit.  

So, as far as others are concerned I forgive all men at all times for all things.

I certainly understand that and ergo my own uncertainty on the matter( there are some very big hints in Scripture though*). Nonetheless the point remains that unconditional and/or universal forgiveness is not taught by the Scripture.
Verne

* The instructions in Exodus 30:22-38 regarding the apothecary ointment and attendant warnings are in my view quite instructive...

[BenJapheth]

Verne,

Unconditional forgiveness is demonstrated by the Scripture...Our lives are proof!  

Now we need to go out and do the same.  Let's not get complicated.  This truth doesn't hang on a scripture in Exodus 30.

Your Pal...Chuck

Verne, not being God, I don't know when someone has blasphemed the Holy Spirit.  

So, as far as others are concerned I forgive all men at all times for all things.

I certainly understand that and ergo my own uncertainty on the matter( there are some very big hints in Scripture though*). Nonetheless the point remains that unconditional and/or universal forgiveness is not taught by the Scripture.
Verne

* The instructions in Exodus 30:22-38 regarding the apothecary ointment and attendant warnings are in my view quite instructive...

[vernecarty]

Verne,

Unconditional forgiveness is demonstrated by the Scripture...Our lives are proof!  

Now we need to go out and do the same.  Let's not get complicated.  This truth doesn't hang on a scripture in Exodus 30.

Your Pal...Chuck

Was our forgiveness really unconditional though Chuck?
Would we have been forgiven had we not repented of our sin?

If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins... 1 John 1:9

Your Pal,
Verne  

[BenJapheth]

Verne,

I can't speak for you...But, when I knew God loved me unconditionally even while I was yet wallowing in the midst of sin I repented and broke before God.  His forgiveness provoked my repentence, not the other way around.

That's what grace does, that's what it is.

His grace and forgiveness is what brought me around.  I certainly didn't earn it.

His love and forgiveness were unconditional - He knew what I was and loved me anyway. Amazing!  Amazing Grace!

Now we get to go out and do the same.

::c:v::

Verne,

Unconditional forgiveness is demonstrated by the Scripture...Our lives are proof!  

Now we need to go out and do the same.  Let's not get complicated.  This truth doesn't hang on a scripture in Exodus 30.

Your Pal...Chuck

Was our forgiveness really unconditional though Chuck?
Would we have been forgiven had we not repented of our sin?

If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins... 1 John 1:9

Your Pal,
Verne  

[vernecarty]

Verne,

I can't speak for you...But, when I knew God loved me unconditionally even while I was yet wallowing in the midst of sin I repented and broke before God.  His forgiveness provoked my repentence, not the other way around.

That's what grace does, that's what it is.

His grace and forgiveness is what brought me around.  I certainly didn't earn it.

His love and forgiveness were unconditional - He knew what I was and loved me anyway. Amazing!  Amazing Grace!

Now we get to go out and do the same.

::c:v::

Chuck I completely agree. His love for us is indeed unconditional- His forgiveness was not. (Now we are starting to get to the meat of the matter!). Before you repented, even though you were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, the fact is that you were an object of God's indignation!

You too were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once conducted yourselves in line with the ways of this world system, controlled by the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit of the one now working in disobedient people...and by nature were the objects pf God's indignation as were all the rest of mankind.
Ephesians 2:1-3

With regard to the Exodus Thirty reference, have you noticed how God reserves His wrath for those who engage in counterfeiting? (eg. George Geftakys). Judas was a counterfeit and a devil from the beginnning even though Christ choose him. The people who accept the mark believe the lie as a result of God's strong delusion, false prophets/teachers appear to be the real article to many.
Satan assayed to be  like God.
I think it is quite revealing that God in Exodus 30 strictly warned against the imitation of that which was used for the annointing of the priests. The sanction is remarkably severe. I believe it gives a hint about the Lord's teaching regarding blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Admittedly Chuck, it is just a thought and I clearly cannot be dogmatic about this.

I think you are a sharp thinker and I have not had this much fun in months. God is great isn't He?  
Verne

[editor]

I think you are a sharp thinker and I have not had this much fun in months. God is great isn't He?  
Verne

Verne,

Be careful with Chuck....he is way smarter than people say he is.    


When I think of the term, "unconditional forgiveness," I see it somewhat as an oxymoron.  If forgiveness was unconditional, then why would Jesus have to suffer the cross?

There was a condition to be met, namely that of full payment for every sin.  Jesus alone met the condition for our forgiveness, so to call it unconditional is not correct.

However, on our part there is nothing we need to do.  Jesus paid it all.  The only condition on our part is something that we have no power to play any part in whatsoever.  We need to be chosen by God, and washed in the Blood of Christ.  After this condition has been met, we are forgiven in Christ, and a whole lot more!

The crux of this discussion really hinges on Election.  Is it our choice (conditional)?  Or is it God's choice, (unconditional)?

Many say it is our choice to respond to God's grace, and allow it to work in our lives.
Many say it couldn't be our choice, because if it was, none of us would ever get saved!

I am at rest, and secure in my faith, because I believe that salvation is the Lord's business.  I believe He chose me, and lavished His grace upon me.   As a result, I make choices to please Him

Read the book of Romans.  Here is the line of thought, briefly:

there is none righteous, no NOT ONE.  There is NONE who seeks after God.  We all, each of us, were objects of His wrath.

Jesus paid our debt, released from our bonds, and revealed God's salvation.  It is God who justifies the ungodly(us).

It is God who chose us.

Now, there is no condemnation in Christ, and nothing can seperate us from Him.  

I like this!! I really like it alot!!

However, I see it all as conditional.  If we didn't have a Savior, who met all the conditions for our salvation, when were were powerless, and even enemies of God, we would all be lost, even as those who don't believe.

Conditional Forgiveness in the larger sense, Unconditional Forgiveness in the sense that we don't need to do anything to receive it.

God isn't going to forgive those that don't meet His conditions.  Hell is the place.

Brent

[BenJapheth]

Vern,

The prerequisite for forgiveness is the blood.  

However, there is no condition in man that must exist prior to God's forgiveness - We can't earn it -  We can't repent for it...It's by grace - Free! He saves sinners.  The transaction of forgiveness has already ocurred when repentence comes...Let's not confuse forgiveness with reconciliation. His long arm of salvation is extended to me in forgiveness while I'm still up to my neck in the mire.  It's as He lays hold of me and I know He loves me and has forgiven me that I repent - this is the exact moment that His light and unconditional love and forgiveness break through - His forgiveness is the initiator not my repentence - otherwise, it wouldn't be grace.  Even before the fact it is the kindness of God that gives me the light that I know I need to repent - He opened my eyes with the light of forgiveness - Not I opened my eyes and now he forgives.


If His unconditional love did not have unconditional forgiveness, it would not be unconditional love since love "does not take into account a wrong suffered."

Our high priest applies the blood and it's not a condition of our doing - as you note this application was recognized in eternity past .

We're digressing a bit -  Originally this discussion was about man-toward-man forgiveness.

Because of the blood, God was forgiving me unconditionally, is forgiving toward me unconditionally, and will forgive me unconditionally...I can therefore forgive my fellow man unconditionally.  When I see others I see myself - myself needing Christ - forgiving in advance, in forgiving in the present progressive, and forgiving in the future...All unconditionally cause I wouldn't want them to forgive me with conditions.  This is part of loving my neighbor as I would myself - cause I would want grace and forgiveness from both man and God.  So, the law of love tells me to follow with others my own hopes for myself.

So, when I use the word "condition" I am speaking with reference of man-to-man not the prerequisite of the blood from God to man. Also, even as I've indicated that blood is a prerequisite for forgiveness - Still with respect to God-toward-man, I'm insisiting that God's patience, lovingkindness, and forgiveness are absolutely unconditional.

Now we need to go out and love the world as He has loved us - including forgiving their sins as they sin against us.

Verne, I encourage you to know the liberty of godlike forgiveness...Put away your cross referencing, it won't be apprehended this way.  Allow your cup to runneth over to unforgiveness toward guilt laden world

May God's grace abound to you to forgive your fellow man unconditionally.  Love as He has loved us.

Verne,

I can't speak for you...But, when I knew God loved me unconditionally even while I was yet wallowing in the midst of sin I repented and broke before God.  His forgiveness provoked my repentence, not the other way around.

That's what grace does, that's what it is.

His grace and forgiveness is what brought me around.  I certainly didn't earn it.

His love and forgiveness were unconditional - He knew what I was and loved me anyway. Amazing!  Amazing Grace!

Now we get to go out and do the same.

::c:v::

Chuck I completely agree. His love for us is indeed unconditional- His forgiveness was not. (Now we are starting to get to the meat of the matter!). Before you repented, even though you were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, the fact is that you were an object of God's indignation!

You too were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once conducted yourselves in line with the ways of this world system, controlled by the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit of the one now working in disobedient people...and by nature were the objects pf God's indignation as were all the rest of mankind.
Ephesians 2:1-3

With regard to the Exodus Thirty reference, have you noticed how God reserves His wrath for those who engage in counterfeiting? (eg. George Geftakys). Judas was a counterfeit and a devil from the beginnning even though Christ choose him. The people who accept the mark believe the lie as a result of God's strong delusion, false prophets/teachers appear to be the real article to many.
Satan assayed to be  like God.
I think it is quite revealing that God in Exodus 30 strictly warned against the imitation of that which was used for the annointing of the priests. The sanction is remarkably severe. I believe it gives a hint about the Lord's teaching regarding blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Admittedly Chuck, it is just a thought and I clearly cannot be dogmatic about this.

I think you are a sharp thinker and I have not had this much fun in months. God is great isn't He?  
Verne

[editor]

However, there is no condition in man that must exist prior to God's forgiveness - We can't earn it -  We can't repent for it...It's by grace - Free! He saves sinners.  The transaction of forgiveness has already ocurred when repentence comes...Let's not confuse forgiveness with reconciliation. His long arm of salvation is extended to me in forgiveness while I'm still up to my neck in the mire.  It's as He lays hold of me and I know He loves me and has forgiven me that I repent - this is the exact moment that His light and unconditional love and forgiveness break through - His forgiveness is the initiator not my repentence - otherwise, it wouldn't be grace.  Even before the fact it is the kindness of God that gives me the light that I know I need to repent - He opened my eyes with the light of forgiveness - Not I opened my eyes and now he forgives.

I like this Chuck.  I think this is what I was trying to say over at restfortheweary.us.

While I stand ready to forgive, and hope and pray that I can look some of these people in the eye and say, "I forgive you,"  we are not yet reconciled, due to lack of repentance.  You seperate forgiveness and reconciliation, whereas I see them as being inextricably linked.  Interesting.

Thanks for you recent presence on the BB.  Things are hoppin now, in a good way.

Brent

[vernecarty]

Vern,

The prerequisite for forgiveness is the blood.  

However, there is no condition in man that must exist prior to God's forgiveness

My dear friend Chuck, I don't want to appear to be straining at a gnat but this position is not scripturally accurate!
There is much room for argument about what produces the condition in man that permits him to receive the grace of God. There is no doubt whatsoever that for any man to be saved he must repent.  Were this not true, no one would be lost. I know you are not a Universalist like Andrew Jukes et al so I am wondering if we just have a communication prioblem here. I reference 1 John 1:9 again. He forgives if we confess. Am I missing something?

We're digressing a bit -  Originally this discussion was about man-toward-man forgiveness.

Absoutely right. However I thought it would be useful to frame the question in a broader sense i.e. whether forgiveness is by definition unconditional. I hoped to prove the point by showing that there are those whom God has stated in no uncertain terms that He will not forgive. In my view that proves the point unless one invokes a different standard for man. That of course is a completely separate can of worms!  
Verne

p.s. To the best of my knowledge Chuck, there is not a single person I know of who was involved with the assemblies that I hold a grudge against. I formed many, many deep friendships there and know many of them to be God's precious blood-bought flock. The sharpness of my pixels is often mistaken for bitterness - I assure you, the full joy of my salavation is intact.  
I do think one of the great weaknesses of those around Geftakys was a failure to be guided in all they thought and did by only the clear teaching of God's Word. I consider myself to be a on a marvellous journey of discerning the proper balance of grace and truth. I want to be careful to see that everything I accept or espouse has the clear sanction of Scripture. It is the only way we avoid error. It is my own belief that there are some clearly scripturally defined categories for which there will be no forgiveness. This in not indulgence in some kind of personal vendetta but rather a bowing to clearly presented Biblical teaching. I do realise some reserve the right to disagree. That is entirely O.K.!  

p.p.s.
I completely agree that the blood of Christ is the effective agent of remission. Recall the message of John the babtist:

Then he went into all the area on either side of Jordan, preaching a babtism of repentance for the forgiveness(remission) of sins...
Luke 3:3

[BenJapheth]

Brent,

Forgiveness and reconciliation are linked - like a male and female.  They are one, but yet two.  It is not good for man to be alone.  It is not good for forgiveness to exist without reconciliation.  Genuine reconciliation depends upon a partner - forgiveness birthing reconciliation - another analogy.

I stand ready to forgive, and hope and pray that I can look some of these people in the eye and say, "I forgive you,"  we are not yet reconciled, due to lack of repentance.  

Brent, to get to reconciliation you need to grant forgiveness in advance.  Chicken or the egg?  It's the egg - and the egg is forgiveness. Why? The guilty party is leveraged by grace - God's Grace coming from you in unconditionally forgiving.  However, it's a loaded deal - Just cause you forgive it is no guarantee that the other party(s) will agree to repent and be reconciled.  However, you are now right with God - And! you have just removed any hindrance from your side on this person coming clean, repenting and getting right with you and God.

Indeed, it is not good for forgiveness to exist without reconciliation.  

Hey, but stuff happens...The world is fallen.  Redemption has to start with us.

::c:v::

However, there is no condition in man that must exist prior to God's forgiveness - We can't earn it -  We can't repent for it...It's by grace - Free! He saves sinners.  The transaction of forgiveness has already ocurred when repentence comes...Let's not confuse forgiveness with reconciliation. His long arm of salvation is extended to me in forgiveness while I'm still up to my neck in the mire.  It's as He lays hold of me and I know He loves me and has forgiven me that I repent - this is the exact moment that His light and unconditional love and forgiveness break through - His forgiveness is the initiator not my repentence - otherwise, it wouldn't be grace.  Even before the fact it is the kindness of God that gives me the light that I know I need to repent - He opened my eyes with the light of forgiveness - Not I opened my eyes and now he forgives.

I like this Chuck.  I think this is what I was trying to say over at restfortheweary.us.

While I stand ready to forgive, and hope and pray that I can look some of these people in the eye and say, "I forgive you,"  we are not yet reconciled, due to lack of repentance.  You seperate forgiveness and reconciliation, whereas I see them as being inextricably linked.  Interesting.

Thanks for you recent presence on the BB.  Things are hoppin now, in a good way.

Brent

[BenJapheth]

Verne,

Am I missing something?

Yes.

::c:v::

[BenJapheth]

However, I see it all as conditional.  If we didn't have a Savior, who met all the conditions for our salvation, when were were powerless, and even enemies of God, we would all be lost, even as those who don't believe.

Yep, Christ is the condition...However, I was speaking as if that were a given.

Unconditional forgiveness in the sense that we don't need to do anything to receive it.

Yes! We may be in agreement now. So, knowing this we should be able to go out and unconditionally forgive those who sin against us. Just as God, in Jesus, unconditionally forgives us.

God isn't going to forgive those that don't meet His conditions.  Hell is the place.

We're in agreement, again.

Point is - God has lavished His grace on us.  We need to love because He first loved us.  We need to forgive cause He first forgave us.  Since we're right with God - So far as it depends on us, we can be right with all mankind.

Amen!  Praise Him!