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Author Topic: Does the Bible teach unconditional forgiveness?  (Read 36253 times)
Joe Sperling
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« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2003, 10:13:30 pm »

Brent---

That's one of the nicest things I've ever read. It's so nice to see people being nice to one another. From now on I'm only going to post truly nice things. I hope this post hasn't been too offensive. I'll try to tone it down the next time.
Have a truly nice day.


--Joe
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vernecarty
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« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2003, 11:59:24 pm »

The main thing here is to be nice.  If there were more niceness, than we would all feel better most of the time.

I think niceness is a first step.

I don't want anyone to disagree with me, because then I wouldn't feel nice, and might not want to post again.  Sometimes when I say what I think, and people disagree, I get offended and leave...and that just isn't right.  They owe me an apology.

On the other hand, if I don't agree with them, I still need to be nice.  I need to make room for everyone, regardless of their viewpoints.  None of us has a right to strongly state what we believe to be true.  How arrogant!  The "right opinion," is the one that is nicest.   Everyone knows that.  I have the right, the absolute right, to never have to listen to anyone who disagrees with me.  I have the right to have thin skin, and to take offense at someone who is not being nice.  Words and ideas have no meaning.  

The purpose here is not to discuss controversial or meaningful topics...there is enough of that already.  Our purpose here is to provide a safe environment, where no one disagrees.

Some people are afraid to post, because people like Verne and myself are not nice enough.  Other people are afraid to post because they are afraid that others won't think what they have to say is nice.  These things ought not to be!

Study to show yourself a workman, approved by God, nicely dividing the Word of Truth------Brent Tr0ckman translation

All of us need to apologize to eachother for saying things in the wrong spirit....I'll accept each of you as correct, regardless of what you believe.... Tongue Tongue  Rebuke them, that they may be nice in the faith!  That's the spirit that Paul was trying to convey to Timothy.  May we never question one another about ideas, conclusions or words!  Let's save our rebukes for the way we percieve a person's attitude to be when they write.  Lack of niceness---rebuke them!  

Here is the principle thing to guide us:If someone has strong convictions, and their convictions lead them to strongly state something contrary to what seems nice, they are wrong.  Strong convictions, beliefs....understanding; all of this leads to trouble.  Contend in a nice manner, not as if you understand what you are talking about.  The beauty of this, is that if you are wrong about something you believe, you need never admit it!  By not clearly stating, or standing up for what you believe, your ambiguity leaves you in a position of niceness.  No one is made to feel bad, and no one gets hurt!  Everyone wins, and gets a trophy!  Wouldn't you all rather be winners?

Brent---I'm gonna be only nice from now on.  

PS: I wish I had never said the mean things I said about George, David and the rest.  If I had been nicer, they probably would have repented, and many of you could have still been attending a much nicer Assembly meeting!  Convictions and conscience often lead us into positions where niceness becomes difficult.

If your convictions cause you to think un-nice thoughts, It's time to re-examine your beliefs.  They are wrong.


NICE!  Grin

Verne
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BenJapheth
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« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2003, 01:30:24 am »



Grace and Humility Are Not Optional
[/u][/b]

Funny how people take decades of all kinds of abuse with nary a protest from the likes of Geftakys and then get on a BB and get all sanctimonious about animated debate

"...and get all sanctimonious about..."

Verne, it's missing again.  I'm not against you, Bro.  I'm for you! Don't kick against the goads...Take heed - it's missing.


...I guess because forgiveness is unconditional is the reason two previous apologies were lost on the perspicacious Mr. Smith

I don't know how Bob took this, but the sarcasm is jolting and I feel compelled to tell you it is injurious to the Lord's lambs.  Accusing a man of not getting "previous apologies" and then calling him perspicacious is either an enormous contradiction or a form of such deep sarcasm that it is more than unwise or unperspicacious - it's foolish. Such facetious remarks create a bitter way of interacting among believers. It angers. It provokes. It hurts.

Again, something is missing...

 
...some of you folk are truly tiresome...

Oh no, please brother; I'm entreating you in the sweetness of our gentle Savior - Something is missing!  I appeal to you, Verne, get right with Bob.

Whoever says to his brother "Empty Head!" shall be in danger of the council. Whoever says "You fool!" shall be in danger of hell fire.

Don't walk - Run!  Run and get right with Bob.

In Him to you, Verne...Chuck

::c:v::

« Last Edit: September 13, 2003, 01:31:06 am by :: Chuck Vanasse :: » Logged
BenJapheth
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« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2003, 01:44:09 am »

Brent, I'm not after being nice but rather doing right, speaking right, writing right...Ephesians 4:29.

Words should be wholesome, timely and gracious.

The kingdom of God does not consist in words, but in power.  Where's your power?  In Christ means we will be filled with his sweet, gentle, winsome Spirit.  Love can make even harsh truths easy to swallow.

Beautiful biblical truths spoken harshly drive men to blaspheme God.

We must be careful with our tongues, we must be careful with our typing fingers.

Just because one is harsh doesn't make one a prophet.  Just because one is gentle and sweet doesn't mean one isn't a messenger of God.

::c:v::



Grace and Humility Are Not Optional
[/u][/b]

Funny how people take decades of all kinds of abuse with nary a protest from the likes of Geftakys and then get on a BB and get all sanctimonious about animated debate

"...and get all sanctimonious about..."

Verne, it's missing again.  I'm not against you, Bro.  I'm for you! Don't kick against the goads...Take heed - it's missing.


...I guess because forgiveness is unconditional is the reason two previous apologies were lost on the perspicacious Mr. Smith

I don't know how Bob took this, but the sarcasm is jolting and I feel compelled to tell you it is injurious to the Lord's lambs.  Accusing a man of not getting "previous apologies" and then calling him perspicacious is either an enormous contradiction or a form of such deep sarcasm that it is more than unwise or unperspicacious - it's foolish. Such facetious remarks create a bitter way of interacting among believers. It angers. It provokes. It hurts.

Again, something is missing...

 
...some of you folk are truly tiresome...

Oh no, please brother; I'm entreating you in the sweetness of our gentle Savior - Something is missing!  I appeal to you, Verne, get right with Bob.

Whoever says to his brother "Empty Head!" shall be in danger of the council. Whoever says "You fool!" shall be in danger of hell fire.

Don't walk - Run!  Run and get right with Bob.

In Him to you, Verne...Chuck

::c:v::


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editor
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« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2003, 01:44:29 am »

Niceness is the way to go, everyone knows that.  However, there is one drawback to niceness, but it isn't as important as the overall benefit of niceness.

If we are always nice, we can't be jarred to our senses by another person.  We can't ever have a moment where our eyes are opened, because this isn't nice.  Also, if we have been nice, as we should all the time, when we are truly wrong about something, we never have to say, "You know, I was wrong about that.  I made an A#@ of myself, because I was stuck on my opinion.  Please forgive me."

Niceness means we never have to say that!  PHew!!  When we are nice we can say,  "That's a nice way to look at it,"  or  "Either way, it's nice."

It's always better to take a flexible stance in the middle, that way you can be nice to the brave people who take stands, which is what they really need in order to heal.

Brent
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editor
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« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2003, 01:50:25 am »

Brent, I'm not after being nice but rather doing right, speaking right, writing right...Ephesians 4:29.


I know buddy.  I am not really directing my niceness entreaty at the people who take a stand.  I have been on the board for a while, and every now and then I get a whiff the "niceness spirit," which some mistake as the Holy Spirit.

As you know, I am all for discussion, passion and honesty.  I can take a punch, and give one out.  I appreciate knocking people down, helping them up, and I like to be helped up when someone knocks me down.  That's all I'm trying to say.

I totally agree that we should be careful what we say and type, also what we think about people.

NICENESS RULES!!

Moderation, carefulness and easy does it....that's what is behind all great accomplishments!  Wink

Brent
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BenJapheth
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« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2003, 01:52:06 am »


Hey, you know me, Brent.  You've seen me less than nice.  However, be careful that you not justify an unseemly manner.  

Yep, faithful are the wounds of a friend, and deceitful are the kisses of an enemy. But the wise man makes knowledge acceptable - he knows how to be nice when it matters.  I would submit for your consideration - niceness matters most of the time.

As Solomon says, "The wise man knows the proper time and procedure."

Go in the niceness of the Lord!

May you win souls!

::c:v::
« Last Edit: September 13, 2003, 01:53:49 am by :: Chuck Vanasse :: » Logged
BenJapheth
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« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2003, 01:55:08 am »


Totally agree...We're in violent agreement.

Brent, I'm not after being nice but rather doing right, speaking right, writing right...Ephesians 4:29.


I know buddy.  I am not really directing my niceness entreaty at the people who take a stand.  I have been on the board for a while, and every now and then I get a whiff the "niceness spirit," which some mistake as the Holy Spirit.

As you know, I am all for discussion, passion and honesty.  I can take a punch, and give one out.  I appreciate knocking people down, helping them up, and I like to be helped up when someone knocks me down.  That's all I'm trying to say.

I totally agree that we should be careful what we say and type, also what we think about people.

NICENESS RULES!!

Moderation, carefulness and easy does it....that's what is behind all great accomplishments!  Wink

Brent
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BenJapheth
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« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2003, 01:57:55 am »


Hey, Brent, I jumped too quick...typed too fast...wasn't "nice"  - forgive me.  I put words in your pen that weren't there.

Mea culpa...



Totally agree...We're in violent agreement.

Brent, I'm not after being nice but rather doing right, speaking right, writing right...Ephesians 4:29.


I know buddy.  I am not really directing my niceness entreaty at the people who take a stand.  I have been on the board for a while, and every now and then I get a whiff the "niceness spirit," which some mistake as the Holy Spirit.

As you know, I am all for discussion, passion and honesty.  I can take a punch, and give one out.  I appreciate knocking people down, helping them up, and I like to be helped up when someone knocks me down.  That's all I'm trying to say.

I totally agree that we should be careful what we say and type, also what we think about people.

NICENESS RULES!!

Moderation, carefulness and easy does it....that's what is behind all great accomplishments!  Wink

Brent
« Last Edit: September 13, 2003, 01:58:34 am by :: Chuck Vanasse :: » Logged
vernecarty
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« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2003, 03:32:50 am »

Do you really think my hyperbole was intended as an insult to God's people after all that I have written?

I have actually read a lot of your posts and yes, to me, it would appear as an insult.

This is not the first time I have been criticised for my writing style.

That should tell you something.

I am just giving my amen to Grace and Humility.


My appologies to you Verne. I meant no disrespect.

No problem at all Bob; I think we were all getting a bit testy. Please jump right in with your ten cents (or more) worth. This can be a really fun place!
Verne

p.s
 Hey Chuck, do you always take yourself so seriously? Lighten up brother! Laugh a little! My sarcasm notwithstanding, I know I have passed from death to life because I love the brethren. I believe underneath all my bluster a careful reader will discern that fact...
p.s.s
I promise to tone down the verbal jabs...a function of my rigorous early British schooling...
« Last Edit: September 13, 2003, 03:41:17 am by vernecarty » Logged
vernecarty
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« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2003, 03:49:58 am »



I don't know how Bob took this, but the sarcasm is jolting and I feel compelled to tell you it is injurious to the Lord's lambs.  


Chuck:

That didn't bother me at all. He's right. We did suffer abuse for years from the GG gestapo. He is assuming though that should make us thick skinned. For some maybe but for others it may be deja vu all over again. After being delivered from the system I want to be careful how I talk to others because I don't want old programming coming back. What a way to offend people. May God teach us grace and humility that we may be dispensers of it.

Lord bless you.


Responded before I read this Bob.One of the problems I sometimes have is I forget not everyone has been on the BB for a long time and newcomers may be a bit taken aback by the sometimes verbal sparring. Believe me, it has really ebbed and flowed over the last ten months or so. I should have recognized that fact in your initial comments and not been so testy. Most of the folks here deeply love the Lord Jesus Christ, and are interested in the best for all who participate - even when we disagree! Thanks for being gracious despite a bit of a rough intro.
Verne
p.s.
Who can come up with a few places in the Bible where God is really sarcastic...
« Last Edit: September 13, 2003, 03:54:35 am by vernecarty » Logged
al Hartman
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« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2003, 07:39:52 am »

Who can come up with a few places in the Bible where God is really sarcastic...

From my Webster's:
Sarcasmn [F or LL; F sarcasme, fr. LL sarcasmos, fr. Gk sarkasmos, fr. sarkazein to tear flesh, bite the lips in rage, sneer, fr. sark-, sarx- flesh; akin to Av thwares- to cut] (1579)  1: a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain <tired of his contemptuous ~s> 2 a: a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usu. directed against an individual  b: the use or language of sarcasm <this is no time to engage in ~s>
Sarcastic...
syn SARCASTIC, SATIRIC, IRONIC, SARDONIC mean marked by bitterness and a power or will to cut or sting.  SARCASTIC implies an intentional inflicting of pain by deriding, taunting, or ridiculing <a critic famous mainly for his sarcastic remarks> SATIRIC implies that the intent of the ridiculing is censure and reprobation <a satiric look at contemporary sexual mores> IRONIC implies an attempt to be amusing or provocative by saying usu. the opposite of what is meant <made the ironic observation that the government could always be trusted> SARDONIC implies scorn, mockery, or derision that is manifested by either verbal or facial expression <surveyed the scene with a sardonic smile>
---------------------------------------
     God certainly has the right to be sarcastic, but it behooves us all to be very careful that we do not use God as an excuse for simply engaging in self-indulgent behavior.  Are there times when sarcasm is appropriate from a servant of God?  Probably, but that servant must know, and not merely presume the mind of God in the matter, because man looks upon the appearance, but only God sees the heart, and woe to any who presumptuously cause one of His little ones to stumble.

     But wait-- Should we reject one who seeks to serve God because we find fault with his/her delivery?  Well, that would be unwise.  Verne or Brent got a little sharp with me, so i'm not going to read their posts any more?  Let's be real... temper is not heresy.
     i came to this BB (by invitation) thinking to make a contribution.  A few have said they were blest by my posts.  But far and away, the greater benefits have been mine.  There are truly gifted teachers and pastors on board here.  This is Bible college at home at our convenience, if you will.
     Some may have supposed that after i was lambasted on this board a few weeks ago, i tucked tail and disappeared, because i stopped posting.  And i'll admit that i was feeling badly about the things that were said.   i took a little time off from the BB to reconsider my thinking, to study the issues, and to pray about them without further stirring my emotions by reading the BB.  Then i returned to read, but didn't post, so as not to stir controversy.

     Now, without my input, the BB has returned to a similar topic as the one that put me in the doghouse.  My point in this post is to state that at no time have i rejected anyone who has posted opinions or positions contrary to my own.  How can one be instructed unless one is prepared to learn things uncomfortable to hear?  And these brothers and sisters, even if they have rejected me (which most have not), have not rejected Christ.  How, then, should i not want to hear them?
     My opinion of how to address God's people, with respect and dignity, has not changed.  If anything, it is stronger than before, because i allowed myself the indulgenge of answering in-kind those who i perceived as disrespectful toward me and, worse, i initiated some exchange of words in a state of anger far short of the righteous kind, and i was wrong in so doing.  
     This is not about being nice.  This is about treating the people of God as we would treat the Lord Himself, for having done it to the least of His brethren, we have done it unto Him.  And if we may entertain angels unaware, guess what:  we won't be aware of it!  So let's be careful not to cause undue offenses.

Quote
Quote from Brent Tr0ckman:
As you know, I am all for discussion, passion and honesty...  
    Yes, and i think we are all grateful for that, and for what we have gained because of it.
     What i propose is that this business about kindness and gentleness and sarcasm and such is a discussion, and that it is being conducted, sometimes passionately, and hopefully in honesty.  More important than winning the argument is to learn from the exchange.  Surely there is Truth to be seen, and the Holy Spirit in us to lead us into all of it.

Gratefully,
al Hartman


« Last Edit: September 13, 2003, 07:48:17 am by al Hartman » Logged
sfortescue
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« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2003, 06:54:58 am »

Who can come up with a few places in the Bible where God is really sarcastic...
One obvious example is Job 38-41.

Job 40:1-2,7-14
Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said, Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.  Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.  Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?  Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?  Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.  Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.  Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.  Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.  Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

The amazing thing is that after all that sarcasm, the Lord commended what Job had said while condemning what his three 'Pharisaical' friends had to say because of their misrepresentation of God's character:

Job 42:7
And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

One thing that surprises me is how often Bible teachers will quote things that Job's friends said in defense of some teaching even though what they said was not endorsed by God.
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