IRAQ A GOOD IDEA?

[David Mauldin]

I honestly agree with many analyst "We already knew that!"  But that was before 1700 dead U.S. servicemen and no hope of "Victory" in site.   Downing Street Memo!!!!    Well guys it could mean impeachment?!  Still think it was a good idea?


http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/22200/

[Oscar]

I honestly agree with many analyst "We already knew that!"  But that was before 1700 dead U.S. servicemen and no hope of "Victory" in site.   Downing Street Memo!!!!    Well guys it could mean impeachment?!  Still think it was a good idea?


http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/22200/

Shouldn't this be under the thread, "Liberal Dreams"?

Thomas Maddux

[outdeep]

I guess I never bought the argument that Bush, who (according to his opponents) is basically a bumbling idiot masterfully and single-handedly, deceived the entire nation and the house and senate to go to war.  Anyone who voted for the war resolution was victims of Bush's deceit.

It seems more plausible to me that at the time, there seemed to be compelling evidence to go to war and that the evidence that every politician had was that Saddam was an eminent threat.  When the war became unpopular and some of the assumptions proved shaky, liberals (other than the principled Joseph Lieberman) distanced themselves from their vote and acted as if it wasn't their fault.

Was it a good idea?

Pro:  Freeing a nation.  Stopping Saddam's lawless genocide.  Serious disruption of Middle-East terrorist network.  Clear message to Middle-East nations to curtail terrorist cells.  Possibly avoided another attack on our soil (hard to prove).

Con:  Some radicals are angry with us.  As a result, some of our soldiers get killed.  Bringing democracy to a nation raises problems and challenges.  Not as much money available for national health care.  Airline travel is more of a hassle. 

[David Mauldin]

Dave and Tom, I wish I could buy into the "We are at war with Evil!" speaches given by our president. Yet, I just can't see any real good coming out of this! I can't see anything, not even economic good. It all looks like a mess that keeps getting worse and worse. So, I do what I can to "walk the talk" of my convictions!  I try my best to work in the guidelines of our political system. I sign petitions, I try to reason with people who hold different views than myself. I march in peaceful demonstrations. I try to understand the reasons why others believe what they believe.  I believe that many of our best citizens are doing what they believe and I respect them for that. My wife and I listened to Jim and Maria Simpson on Memorial Day in Fullerton. Where you there? I have nothing but respect for them and their son Abraham.  So I do what I can. If on the other hand I did believe as you claim to "We are at war with evil!" it would bother me greatly to hear about my former Sunday School students dieing in Iraq. It would bother me to hear that recruitment in the armed services is falling alarmingly behind! I think I would say to myself, "Dave, there is a war going on against evil and you just sit on your fat #$$ and talk."  So I would like to ask you, if you really believe in what you say you believe then why haven't you enlisted?

[Jem]

I was talking to a Blackhawk pilot recently and his take on Iraq was that 9/11 was on our turf. Bush took terrorism right back to the Middle East where they're so fond of it. It's a bit cynical, but hard to argue. The vast majority of terrorism now is Arab on Arab. Just as horrible, but for Bush to say after 9/11, "Sorry guys, if you can't play fair we're going to send our best and duke it out in your backyard" from a leadership standpoint is laudable, not impeachable.

[Oscar]

Dave and Tom, I wish I could buy into the "We are at war with Evil!" speaches given by our president. Yet, I just can't see any real good coming out of this! I can't see anything, not even economic good.

David,

How about stability in the world economy?  Is that a good?

If Saddam or any other Middle Eastern tyrant could mess up the flow of oil into the west, the world economy would come to a screeching halt.

All of the stocks you have fun trading would only be good for wallpaper!  They would be worthless.

The manufacturing and trade jobs would dry up....and then the service jobs would follow.

Teachers are service providers.   YOU would be out of work, or working at severely reduced wages as teachers had to to during the depression.

Saddam had already invaded Kuwait, had tried to invade Iran, and was planning on invading Saudi Arabia when we "encouraged" him to stop in Iraq I.   He was still a potential threat...hence Iraq II.

If the Islamic fanatics can take over Iran, or Saudi Arabia, or Iraq, or anywhere else they can...they will mess up the world economy if they can.

We traded blood for oil.  We still are.  So...you get to eat.   Enjoy your supper.

Everyone in the US Senate saw this, and every senator voted to go to war.  Including Keary.

Never mistake election rhetoric and party politics for reality.

It all looks like a mess that keeps getting worse and worse. So, I do what I can to "walk the talk" of my convictions!  I try my best to work in the guidelines of our political system. I sign petitions, I try to reason with people who hold different views than myself. I march in peaceful demonstrations. I try to understand the reasons why others believe what they believe.  I believe that many of our best citizens are doing what they believe and I respect them for that.
 My wife and I listened to Jim and Maria Simpson on Memorial Day in Fullerton. Where you there? I have nothing but respect for them and their son Abraham.  So I do what I can. If on the other hand I did believe as you claim to "We are at war with evil!" it would bother me greatly to hear about my former Sunday School students dieing in Iraq. It would bother me to hear that recruitment in the armed services is falling alarmingly behind! I think I would say to myself, "Dave, there is a war going on against evil and you just sit on your fat #$$ and talk."  So I would like to ask you, if you really believe in what you say you believe then why haven't you enlisted?

1. " Where you there?"   What is the significance of this?    I was at Abraham's funeral.  Were you there?

2. Where did you ever get the idea that people don't care if kids die in war?  This self-righteous arrogance is typical of leftists. 

3. "then why haven't you enlisted?"   

October 1959-January 1960- Air Training Command, Lackland AFB, Texas.
January 1960-April 1961-507th Fighter Group, Air Defence Command, Kincheloe AFB, Michigan.
May 1961-November 1962-Sixth Allied Tactical Air Force, Izmir, Turkey.
November 1962-August 1963, Air Material Command, Norton AFB, California.
Separation from active duty, September 1963.   

Or, in other words, I did!

I was part of the multi-generational effort to resist the evil of atheistic communisim, which was out to take over the world. 

Evil doesn't go away, Dave, it is always with us.  Colonialism, Fascisim, Naziism, Communism, and now Muslim terrorism.  Generation after generation of American boys have poured out their blood to keep these horrors at bay.

They have always had to face the dangers abroad, and also the "Intelligentsia" at home who have denigrated their efforts and done all they could to undermine their cause.

The last time around the "intelligentsia" spat upon them as they got off the planes and called them "baby killers."

Now the same crowd wants to walk away from their sacrifices and make thier deaths meaningless.  Just like the ones that gave it all in Vietnam.   

I have walked along the wall in Washington DC, Dave, and seen the 53,000+ names there.  Thanks to folks like you, Dave, they died for nothing.  If you get your way, Abraham Simpson will have died for nothing. 

Perhaps you would enjoy some wine and tofu with Hanoi Jane.

Airman First Class Thomas Maddux

And proud of it!

[David Mauldin]

Bro I walk my talk! You talk, talk talk! 

[Oscar]

Bro I walk my talk! You talk, talk talk! 

Here's a little "talk, talk, talk" from a real liberal.  His initials were JFK.


 " Vice President Johnson, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Chief Justice, President Eisenhower, Vice President Nixon, President Truman, reverend clergy, fellow citizens, we observe today not a victory of party, but a celebration of freedom—symbolizing an end, as well as a beginning—signifying renewal, as well as change. For I have sworn before you and Almighty God the same solemn oath our forebears prescribed nearly a century and three quarters ago.    1
  The world is very different now. For man holds in his mortal hands the power to abolish all forms of human poverty and all forms of human life. And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe—the belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God. 2
  We dare not forget today that we are the heirs of that first revolution. Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans—born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage—and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this Nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world. 3
  Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty. 4
  This much we pledge—and more. "

In those days, I was proud to be a Democrat.

But I could not make common cause with the leftist whackos who run the party today.

Thomas Maddux

[outdeep]

Tom says in response to David Mauldin's question "3. "then why haven't you enlisted?"

October 1959-January 1960- Air Training Command, Lackland AFB, Texas.
January 1960-April 1961-507th Fighter Group, Air Defence Command, Kincheloe AFB, Michigan.
May 1961-November 1962-Sixth Allied Tactical Air Force, Izmir, Turkey.
November 1962-August 1963, Air Material Command, Norton AFB, California.
Separation from active duty, September 1963.   

Or, in other words, I did!

I was part of the multi-generational effort to resist the evil of atheistic communisim, which was out to take over the world. 

David Mauldin then replies:

Bro I walk my talk! You talk, talk talk! 

I'm not following the logic here. 

[wmathews]

Interesting discussion here!  Have been considering lessons learned and the parallels of Vietnam and Iraq lately...I teach Physician Assistant students at SIU MEd School, and one of my PA students just returned from Iraq as a combat medic.  In contrast to the recent poll of 37% of Americans not supporting the war in Iraq, he does not seem to suffer from a lack of moral clarity on the issue. One universal conviction of all Iraqi's he reports is their visceral hatred of Saddam, a thoroughly evil beast of a ruler in terms of cruelty and oppression. As a Vietnam vet myself, I have two major concerns: the lack of a popular support for the effort, and the difficulty of fighting a guerilla insurgency, the second directly influences the first.  I don't think our leaders have done a very good job of providing the moral clarity to the current effort. I do concur with Tom Maddux that any semblance of social or economic stability is untenable if the Islamofascists are allowed to have their way. That is not just a desire for economic prosperity of the global economy, but I Tim 1 enjoins to pray: 'for rulers in responsibility, so that our common life may be lived in peace and quiet, with a proper sens of God and of our responsibility to Him for what to do with our lives.'  No one hates war more than those who see the waste, the suffering, the pain, but no one understands how in this fallen world, the only worse option is to compromise with evil. I am not speaking as a Republican, but as an American vet, and as a Christian.
I know men whose names are on that black wall.
I pray none of the current men and women will serve or die in vain.

Wayne Mathews, USN 1972-76
RVN Service Medal
Operations End Sweep, Frequent Wind

[David Mauldin]

Dave the logic is simple I asked a question, "Why haven't you enlisted?" Tom's answer "Dave is a communist who lunches with Jane Fonda!" 

[David Mauldin]

      WMathews, Bro I have considered the same things!  Let's say I am pro-war!  O.K. then let's get this job done!  A study I heard quoted said that for every insurgent in Iraq we need 9 people to fight him!  A military soldier is quoted as saying, "Every-time I kill an insurgent he is replace by three more!" They are having no problems filling spaces with new recruits. Yet our recruitment numbers are down to the point where people are beginning to murmur "draft!" When the war began 80% of Americans were behind it yet on C-Span I hear now that it is 33%. Now a bipartisan group of senators is calling of a withdrawal. I do not buy into your stats on general moral. I know many soldiers personally. They have a much different story to tell.
   
     I would like to deal with something that I have found very disturbing. It is the idea that if a person questions our President then he is unpatriotic! If a person points out the fact that the reasons given for the war have changed over and over then yes I'm unpatriotic. If a person points out that the rights of due process are being taken away by the "Patriot Act" then I guess I'm unpatriotic. But forgive me brothers. I have been reading about the lives of subversives. Yes bros! I have been reading the biographies of men who have done these very such things. They have "Questioned the sovereign rights of their leaders!"  They have questioned obedience to the lord's command, "Render unto Cesar..."  They have even congregated together and signed a document testifying to their intent upon treason! Yes these godless heretics! These Masons, Unitarians, Deist named George washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams and Benjamin Franklin. If you see these men and their rabble you may want to call the "Dept. of Homeland Security"  Please don't forget to tell who outed them! But seriously if you just obey your leaders in blind faith isn't that what life was like in the Assembly?
   
   WMathews, my cousin Harold Fesperman is on the wall. I have seen his name and I have read his story written by my god-mother his mother Robbie Fesperman. Harold volunteered to go to Viet Nam when he was 18. Today his mother lives alone. She has recently lost her husband to cancer and her daughter to cancer.  Today she pines for her son. She knows he died with a pure heart, she knows his service was worthy to God and Country yet she pines for him. WMathews, 8 years ago I began teaching!  I received  a group of fourth graders. I am terrified at the thought they will face a draft!  WMathews can you honestly say that you believe this is a war against evil?

[wmathews]

David,

     First of all let me state categorically that there is a vast distinction between questioning the reason for a war, and the manner in which it is prosecuted.

Is it not a great thing the Iraqi's have been delivered from a butchering madman, who paid suicide bombers in Israel, used chemical weapons and systematic torture on his own people, and all the while could field elections producing a 100% majority vote for him?

Is it not a travesty we have wound up with a confusing debacle over the 'absence' of WMD's as a primary reason for going to war? (Shades of Gulf of tonkin resolution, 1965...btw happened on LBJ's watch (a democrat I believe)).
IS it not a travesty that it took a brave soldier in the field asking a question to Rumsfeld to get a ramp-up of the protective armor for our humvee's?
Is it not a travesty that reservists with the least training are facing the longest tour extensions in the Army (my friends' deployment as a reserve medic went from 6 months to 14 months)?

Most Vietnam vets would agree that a lot more questioning of leaders over the definitive plan for the war there would have saved a lot of lives. Last time I checked, David, most of us are fighting for the right to question those in power. But in Vietnam we blamed the vet....doesn't make sense. By and large, David, I dont trust politicians, in accordance with Lord Acton's truism, power corrupts, and you can see it true the higher up you go. I really dont think out founding fathers trusted professional politicians much more than they trusted a monarchy. It isn't a question of blindly following Bush or any president, or senator, etc. IF you read the Federalist papers, you see that inherent in our system is a persistent tension between preserving individual freedom and representation, and preserving the order of a society required to ensure those freedoms. That tension is not an 'automatic pilot', but requires informed participation of its citizens, sometimes it requires sacrifice of its citizenry's time and even blood. But that sacrifice and its reasons need to be framed with moral clarity, which by the way, this admin. IMO, is failing to do adequately.

Let me close by including an apt quote from our first president, who had experienced first hand the cost of war and freedom:
"The willingness with which our young people are likely to serve in any war, no matter how justified, shall be directly proportional to how they perceive how the veterans of earlier wars were treated and appreciated by their nation."
George Washington


Enjoying the discussion!
Wayne

[David Mauldin]

Wayne,

           Good point about Saddam but were you aware that the U.S. gave him those chemical weapons? Along with 13 strains of anthrax. A crushing disappointment to Rumsfeld that they are "absent". Just a note, my favorite contemporary President is Richard Nixon. My former aid at the White house to George and Barbara coworker teacher friend Mary-Kate Hagman and I just had our copies of "One Soldiers story" signed by Bob Dole at the Library together, just want you to know that I am not one of these Republican vs Democrat people. You touch on a point I have concerns about.  Given the present dissatisfaction on how our President is handling the war, 33% approval rate, and if this leads to a pullout, who will take the blame??  I believe Nixon got a bad deal. He was impeached for nothing! Yet why?  The spirit of the age was demanding for a sacrifice. So my point. Who will take the blame?  Bush?  His administration? The "Liberal Media" "The Righties"?

Just finished "His Majesty" (bio on Washington.) The Fabian/insurgent strategy is right there. I can't help but wonder why didn't our military leaders consider this??  Good conversation.

[Duckwrench]

I think the war in Iraq was and remains a good idea.  I just hope that Iran is invaded next so that it too can become a democracy and under the control of the United States.  Then, invade some other country until the US rules the world.  It would be great!!

On the other hand, the US controlls the world anyway, and New York City is the capitol.  So there.