IRAQ A GOOD IDEA?

[outdeep]

Let me state once more my position and I will bow out of this discussion.

1.   I do not agree with the liberal view that GW Bush lied and/or personally deceived the nation into going to war.

2.   Those who voted for the war resolution (both liberals and conservatives) did so not because they were hoodwinked by a single person (the bumbling cowboy GW) but because at that time they understood Saddam to be a threat.

3.   The war resolution was passed because it was understood that action had to be taken against a growing terrorist threat.  Saddam’s refusal to be accountable with weapon inspectors and faulty intelligence painted a picture that the threat was possibly imminent.  Saddam had played the game with weapon inspectors for over a decade. 

4.   Liberals who at the time voted for the resolution later distanced themselves from their own vote in an attempt to appeal to their constituents and win the election on the “Someone else for president” platform.  Joseph Lieberman is one of the few who stood to his principles and it cost him in the primaries.

5.   Innocent war casualties do not demonstrate that a war is invalid any more than the multitude of deaths in the revolutionary war and WWII  demonstrate those wars were lost or invalid.  Rather innocent war casualties asks the question if there is a better way we could carry out the war and if our soldiers could be better equipped to resist the enemy without inflicting harm on the innocent.

6.   In guerilla warfare, it is often difficult, if not impossible, to determine who are the soldiers and who are the innocent civilians.  This is not an excuse and care should be done to the best of their abilities, but that is a fact of warfare – the enemy does not always play fair and wear uniforms.  Further, playing on American sympathies is a real strategy.

7.   The opposite scenario must be considered.  While the innocent dying is tragic, the opposite is tragic, too:   If Saddam was still in power and directly butchering his own innocent people or the terrorist cells were not curtailed and they were able to inflict further destruction on the innocent people of the Great Satan, would that not be tragic too? 

8.   To say that we cannot have an opinion about the war unless we personally go the Army recruiter and enlist is ridiculous.   There are ways to support the war without enlisting just as there are ways to fight AIDs without going to Africa.  One way, is to exchange our ideas on a bulletin board which is what we are doing.  A better question is would we go to Iraq if we were of proper age and had the opportunity and would we support our children if they decide to join the military?  God, not David, knows our hearts.

9.   Saddam butchered his own people.  When Bush refers to him as evil, David Mauldin sees this as Assembly-speak.  I rarely use the word evil, but I believe Saddam is evil.  I think the terrorists are evil who fly into buildings and want to destroy America is evil, too.  I don’t think Bush is evil.

[Recovering Saint]

Dave S.

I think you said it very well. The US is always wrong no matter what they do in the world's eyes.

If you don't go in. What is the matter with you guys letting Sadaam get away with murdering innocent people in his country?

If you do go in. What business do you have interferring in another country's affairs?

The World needs someone to stand up for Liberty. It is important to be clear about that. When that is the motive and you go with what you believe is right then go for it.

France, Germany, Russia and other countries are not impartial. They stood to loose out on a lot when the US went in. They could not care a less about the common Iraqi they were very focused on the almighty Euro.

I feel very sad for the Americans who lost a son or daughter in Iraq or Vietnam. War is not a video game people really get hurt and killed. To go to war is never first option but if you have tyrants who use their own citizens like dung and send them on missions to destroy other peaceful countries do you say? Let's not get involved after all it isn't our problem. People who went to war I am sure know it is not a game and many see it as a priviledge to go. The Left who say they want to spare people from going remind me of Peter who said to the Lord. No not you you can't go to be crucified. He was concerned about his own skin and that is probably what motivates many liberals. Freedom that costs us nothing. Well Freedom costs in many ways and it ain't free because someone has to step out and give themselves to make it happen. The evil forces are those who take Freedom from others and lock you with their "isms" and their rules. The veterans who died have a right to speak about Freedom most young pups today have no idea what it means or what sacrafices were made to obtain it. Now the Freedom is given to the one with the best lawyer and the victims are victimized all over again. People who want Freedom need to understand that with Freedom comes Responsibility. You want it to happen you are saying you are willing to stand and if necessary fight for it.

David M.

You are probably a very nice fellow. It is not a personal attack against you unless you make it one. You are entitled to your opinion but the Freedom for you to exercise that option cost some previous generations a son or daughter's life. Freedom is not cheap BUT it is worth fighting for.

Iraq, WW11 Germany name your unjust regime they have to be stopped and brought into the big picture of World cooperation and peace. If we see countries enslaving and indiscriminately killing or abusing their citizens we are required to act for the betterment of mankind. If they fight back we don't give up we dig in and stop it.

Hugh

[David Mauldin]

Willy:  "Hey, Joe look out for dat sniper!"  Zing!!!

Joe:  "Tanks Willy!"

Willy: "Hey, Joe Did you get orders to drives the convoy ons dat road to Tekrit agains?"

Joe: "Yea! Shuks I was prayin fors Bagdad!"  "It's kinda like playin blackjack instead of Russian Roulette!"

Willy: "Tuff luck pal!"  "But KLAAAABOOOM!  "Whoa must of been an IED!"  "shucks took out dat Hummy!"

Joe:  "Hey Willy it say's here dat Cheney says that this here insurgency is in its last throws!" "Wat's "throws" means?"

Willy: "I tink it means the rugs been pulled out from under somebody!"

[wmathews]

Willy:  "Hey, Joe look out for dat sniper!"  Zing!!!

Joe:  "Tanks Willy!"

Willy: "Hey, Joe Did you get orders to drives the convoy ons dat road to Tekrit agains?"

Joe: "Yea! Shuks I was prayin fors Bagdad!"  "It's kinda like playin blackjack instead of Russian Roulette!"

Willy: "Tuff luck pal!"  "But KLAAAABOOOM!  "Whoa must of been an IED!"  "shucks took out dat Hummy!"

Joe:  "Hey Willy it say's here dat Cheney says that this here insurgency is in its last throws!" "Wat's "throws" means?"

Willy: "I tink it means the rugs been pulled out from under somebody!"

The aforementioned tripe is an insult to the men and women in uniform, their intelligence and commitment, notwithstanding the dialogue of disagreement of how this war is being prosecuted.  Of course, its author is an unwitting beneficiary of the freedom purchased in blood and guaranteed by a Constitution.
Remember the Kenyan embassy, USS Cole, and last but not least 911.  See a pattern here?
Over and out.

[Joe Sperling]

Willy: The sniper has been targeted and is about to be put down.
Joe: Thanks for the information Willy. Thank God for the night vision equipment supplied
       to us.

Willy: Orders are to go to Tikrit. More insurgents. Not looking forward to it, but it's a
        job that needs to be done.
Joe:  Funny thing, Cheney's right, we are making a lot of progress. It's a tough fight,
        but we're going to win it.
Willy: Yeah--too bad the people so against this war can't see the real gains that have
        been made here. There's a new government in place. And isn't the incredible
        fight to keep democracy out of the area a sure sign that big strides are being made?
        I mean, why would they go to the extreme trouble they are to sacrifice their own
        lives to keep democracy from gaining a foothold?

Joe: Well, you know how extreme leftists and people to the extreme right are, don't you
       Willy? The white extremists' last resort, and people to the extreme right, will always try
       to paint others as "stupid" and so much less intelligent than themselves. Don't be surprised
       if the left tries to paint U.S. soldiers as a bunch of morons too. It's just a sign of their own
       extreme ignorance. Feel sorry for them Willy--they use their own freedom and democracy to
       villify the very ones protecting them. Now, that is just plain stupid.

[David Mauldin]

  Joe: "Hey Willy the cook just gave me a bottle of whiskey,!" "Want some?"

  Willy: "No thanks Joe!"  "My mother always told me that booze is fer suckers and loosers!"

  Joe: "O.K. then," "hey da Sunday paper sayz a lots about this war were fighten!"  "Want to hear?"

  Willy "O.K. shoot!"


   Joe:  " It says here dat General Rumsfeld says, "The insurgency could go on 4, 8, 10, 12 years!" and it also says that Sen. Chuck

          Hagel (R-Neb) says that "The White House is completely disconnected from reality."

   Willy:  'Ya mean because of what dat Vice President said?"

   Joe:  "Ya, what Cheney said, "The insurgency is in its last throes."


    Joe:  Pauses-thinks  "Hey willy!"  "Does this mean Cheney is a liar?"  "Or just stupid?"


   Willy: "Take your pick Joe!"  "Oh by the way, I will take that drink now!"

[Recovering Saint]

Some thoughts of how war was fought in Biblical times. It ain't pretty now and it wasn't then either. David God's annointed is the King and calls for the troops to go out.


2 Samuel 20

1 Then a troublemaker named Sheba son of Bicri, a man from the tribe of Benjamin, blew a trumpet and shouted, "We have nothing to do with David. We want no part of this son of Jesse. Come on, you men of Israel, let's all go home!" 2 So the men of Israel deserted David and followed Sheba. But the men of Judah stayed with their king and escorted him from the Jordan River to Jerusalem. 3 When the king arrived at his palace in Jerusalem, he instructed that the ten concubines he had left to keep house should be placed in seclusion. Their needs were to be cared for, he said, but he would no longer sleep with them. So each of them lived like a widow until she died.

4 Then the king instructed Amasa to mobilize the army of Judah within three days and to report back at that time. 5 So Amasa went out to notify the troops, but it took him longer than the three days he had been given. 6 Then David said to Abishai, "That troublemaker Sheba is going to hurt us more than Absalom did. Quick, take my troops and chase after him before he gets into a fortified city where we can't reach him." 7 So Abishai and Joab set out after Sheba with an elite guard from Joab's army and the king's own bodyguard. 8 As they arrived at the great stone in Gibeon, Amasa met them, coming from the opposite direction. Joab was wearing his uniform with a dagger strapped to his belt. As he stepped forward to greet Amasa, he secretly slipped the dagger from its sheath. 9 "How are you, my cousin?" Joab said and took him by the beard with his right hand as though to kiss him. 10 Amasa didn't notice the dagger in his left hand, and Joab stabbed him in the stomach with it so that his insides gushed out onto the ground. Joab did not need to strike again, and Amasa soon died. Joab and his brother Abishai left him lying there and continued after Sheba. 11 One of Joab's young officers shouted to Amasa's troops, "If you are for Joab and David, come and follow Joab." 12 But Amasa lay in his blood in the middle of the road, and Joab's officer saw that a crowd was gathering around to stare at him. So he pulled him off the road into a field and threw a cloak over him. 13 With Amasa's body out of the way, everyone went on with Joab to capture Sheba.

14 Meanwhile, Sheba had traveled across Israel to mobilize his own clan of Bicri at the city of Abel-beth-maacah. 15 When Joab's forces arrived, they attacked Abel-beth-maacah and built a ramp against the city wall and began battering it down. 16 But a wise woman in the city called out to Joab, "Listen to me, Joab. Come over here so I can talk to you." 17 As he approached, the woman asked, "Are you Joab?""I am," he replied.So she said, "Listen carefully to your servant.""I'm listening," he said. 18 Then she continued, "There used to be a saying, 'If you want to settle an argument, ask advice at the city of Abel.' 19 I am one who is peace loving and faithful in Israel. But you are destroying a loyal city. Why do you want to destroy what belongs to the LORD?" 20 And Joab replied, "Believe me, I don't want to destroy your city! 21 All I want is a man named Sheba son of Bicri from the hill country of Ephraim, who has revolted against King David. If you hand him over to me, we will leave the city in peace.""All right," the woman replied, "we will throw his head over the wall to you." 22 Then the woman went to the people with her wise advice, and they cut off Sheba's head and threw it out to Joab. So he blew the trumpet and called his troops back from the attack, and they all returned to their homes. Joab returned to the king at Jerusalem.

23 Joab once again became the commander of David's army. Benaiah son of Jehoiada was commander of the king's bodyguard. 24 Adoniram was in charge of the labor force. Jehoshaphat son of Ahilud was the royal historian. 25 Sheva was the court secretary. Zadok and Abiathar were the priests. 26 Ira the Jairite was David's personal priest.

[summer007]

David, The Power's that be decided along time ago that the Iraqi war was a good idea. The horse is out of the barn so to speak. You don't have to like it David it really was'nt your decision was it ? and listen the men and woman that enlisted did it voluntarilay, they wer'nt drafted like you make them sound they follow orders from their commander in chief, they knew this when they signed up. Yes some maybe only wanted the benefit package, but most give their lives for freedom, they are no longer civilians like you they are under military law completely different from civilian law. Maybe it was mentioned that Saddam was paying families of the homocidal/suicidal maniacs did you forget this? Someone once said, The only thing needed for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing" apparently you'd rather do nothing about the terrorists, eh? Well  the War's not over yet so I don't see it "Lost" as you do, and don't be surprised if you see the the boys in Iran soon I'm sure the teams have been in and out many times, getting ready to take them down. David if you don't get your head bashed in as you said while protesting you could very well have it blown to bits by a terrorists if we followed your advise on warfare, don't you know these people want to kill you david ? Please don't be so naive. Did you serve your country? what years?and branch? Thanks Summer p.s. "The Lord is a Warrior, The Lord is His Name!" from the Song of Moses; Exodus 15.

[Chuck Miller]

Hugh,

I’m having a difficult time finding a scriptural basis for your contention stated in your post of June 26th.  You wrote:

Iraq, WW11 Germany, name your unjust regime they have to be stopped and brought into the big picture of World cooperation and peace. If we see countries enslaving and indiscriminately killing or abusing their citizens we are required to act for the betterment of mankind. If they fight back we don't give up we dig in and stop it.


Journalist Paul Craig Roberts wrote the following:

The world press sees Bush as an arrogant hypocrite who justifies his invasion of Iraq in the name of democracy, while protecting Uzbek’s murderous dictator Islam Karimov, described by Craig Murray, former UK ambassador to Uzbekistan as "very much George Bush’s man in Central Asia." On May 13, Karimov had 500 protesters shot down in the streets of Andijan and 200 massacred in Pakhtabad. Still more civilians were massacred by Karimov while attempting to flee into neighboring Kyrgyzstan.
It was the Bush administration that blocked a call by NATO for an international investigation of the Uzbek massacre. According to news reports, Karimov has agreed, for a suitable payment from US taxpayers, for Bush to attack Iran from bases in Uzbekistan. Uzbekistan also serves as one of the Bush administration’s offshore torture centers to which suspected terrorists are sent.      -Paul Craig Roberts

 Dr. Roberts is no bleeding heart liberal, but a John M. Olin Fellow at the Institute for Political Economy and Research Fellow at the Independent Institute. He is a former associate editor of the Wall Street Journal, former contributing editor for National Review, and a former assistant secretary of the U.S. Treasury.

Where is the outcry against Karimov.  Where is the outcry against China and North Korea and Saudi Arabia for the terrible abuses of their citizens?

Hugh, can see why it is wise to refrain from speaking in imperatives that have no scriptural basis?  Jesus never gave the United States, nor any other nation, the command to “act for the betterment of mankind” by rising up against nations that enslave and indiscriminately kill or abuse their citizens. As Christians, we are not commanded to become the world police force, but rather, we are to be ambassadors for Christ and to make disciples of all the nations, teaching them to observe all that Jesus commanded us.  And in view of the manner in which this country enslaved and indiscriminately killed Africans, your statement most certainly has to sound hypocritical to unbiased observers.   And isn’t it also hypocritical for the United State to be seeking to impose a democratic government and its “values” upon other nations, when those values are reflected in some of its most popular TV shows such as “Desperate Housewives,” “Sex and the City” and “The Sopranos.”  And what about its “values” concerning abortion,  adultery homosexuality, divorce, pornography, etc.?   Need I go on?     

And why is it that President Bush feels that pre-emptive strikes are necessary to deter enemies from attacking ?  Isn’t it because of an inordinate fear of death?  But Jesus said, "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell“  (Matthew 10:28).   When we have the peace of Christ in our hearts,  we have no need to fear man or his terror.   Fear, instead, the wrath of God that will come upon those who design a “road map” to partition and give away the  land that He has bequeathed to His chosen people, Israel.   

Let's not loose sight of the fact that we are strangers and aliens in this fallen world and citizens of    the eternal kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Chuck Miller

[vernecarty]

Hugh,

I’m having a difficult time finding a scriptural basis for your contention stated in your post of June 26th.  You wrote:

Iraq, WW11 Germany, name your unjust regime they have to be stopped and brought into the big picture of World cooperation and peace. If we see countries enslaving and indiscriminately killing or abusing their citizens we are required to act for the betterment of mankind. If they fight back we don't give up we dig in and stop it.


Journalist Paul Craig Roberts wrote the following:

The world press sees Bush as an arrogant hypocrite who justifies his invasion of Iraq in the name of democracy, while protecting Uzbek’s murderous dictator Islam Karimov, described by Craig Murray, former UK ambassador to Uzbekistan as "very much George Bush’s man in Central Asia." On May 13, Karimov had 500 protesters shot down in the streets of Andijan and 200 massacred in Pakhtabad. Still more civilians were massacred by Karimov while attempting to flee into neighboring Kyrgyzstan.
It was the Bush administration that blocked a call by NATO for an international investigation of the Uzbek massacre. According to news reports, Karimov has agreed, for a suitable payment from US taxpayers, for Bush to attack Iran from bases in Uzbekistan. Uzbekistan also serves as one of the Bush administration’s offshore torture centers to which suspected terrorists are sent.      -Paul Craig Roberts

 Dr. Roberts is no bleeding heart liberal, but a John M. Olin Fellow at the Institute for Political Economy and Research Fellow at the Independent Institute. He is a former associate editor of the Wall Street Journal, former contributing editor for National Review, and a former assistant secretary of the U.S. Treasury.

Where is the outcry against Karimov.  Where is the outcry against China and North Korea and Saudi Arabia for the terrible abuses of their citizens?

Hugh, can see why it is wise to refrain from speaking in imperatives that have no scriptural basis?  Jesus never gave the United States, nor any other nation, the command to “act for the betterment of mankind” by rising up against nations that enslave and indiscriminately kill or abuse their citizens. As Christians, we are not commanded to become the world police force, but rather, we are to be ambassadors for Christ and to make disciples of all the nations, teaching them to observe all that Jesus commanded us.  And in view of the manner in which this country enslaved and indiscriminately killed Africans, your statement most certainly has to sound hypocritical to unbiased observers.   And isn’t it also hypocritical for the United State to be seeking to impose a democratic government and its “values” upon other nations, when those values are reflected in some of its most popular TV shows such as “Desperate Housewives,” “Sex and the City” and “The Sopranos.”  And what about its “values” concerning abortion,  adultery homosexuality, divorce, pornography, etc.?   Need I go on?     

And why is it that President Bush feels that pre-emptive strikes are necessary to deter enemies from attacking ?  Isn’t it because of an inordinate fear of death?  But Jesus said, "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell“  (Matthew 10:28).   When we have the peace of Christ in our hearts,  we have no need to fear man or his terror.   Fear, instead, the wrath of God that will come upon those who design a “road map” to partition and give away the  land that He has bequeathed to His chosen people, Israel.   

Let's not loose sight of the fact that we are strangers and aliens in this fallen world and citizens of    the eternal kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Chuck Miller

You should post more often. I don't read here much as I used to. This was worth the visit.
Verne

[David Mauldin]

Willy: "I don't like it Joe!"  'More ans more of ours guys is gettin killed by these insurgents!'

Joe: "Willy didn't you listen to Rumsfeld on MSNBC Monday night?"  "He said, in response to his critics,  "actually the its the effectiveness of the insurgents thats increasing!"  "Not the number of attacks!"

Willy: "Oh, yas mean more peoples are gettin killed but things are lookin better al the time!"


Joe: "You got it!"

Willy:  "Joe are we stupid to think dese guys are doing a good job of fighten this war?"


Joe "Only 39% of us Willy"

[David Mauldin]

Chuck, my thoughts exactly!

[Jem]

Wayne,

You're right that the Willy and Joe dialogue is an absolute insult to men and women in uniform. No surprise coming from David. He never served so he judges those who do as being too stupid to do anything else. What I found shocking was his use of pidgeon English characteristic of southern African-Americans. That is truly offensive.

[Oscar]

Folks,

Dave's posts remind me of a book I first read back in the early 1960's called The True Believer by Eric Hoffer.  I re-read it a couple of years ago. 

Some of the characteristics of "true believers" are the typical attitudes and behaviors of people in cults.  We ourselves have manifested some of them at one time or another. When I was working my way out of the assembly I learned that most people tend to work their way out of the cult as they change and as reality impinges upon the false reality created within the group.

But, some don't leave.  Or if they do leave, they just migrate to another group with the same problems.  Dave has, he believes, "escaped" from God.  But the radical Left has just about as many cultic characteristics as the assembly. 

Some are:

1. The view of themselves as a the "enlightened" community.  Dave's contempt for our military grows from this.  They are stupid and ignorant...mere pawns in the hands of the evil conservatives.

2. The view of themselves as the moral arbiters of all issues.  Being the "community of light" in the midst of "darkness" (sound familiar?) or the force of good in the midst of evil, what they say is true, good, and beautiful.  All others are evil.

3. A deprecating attitude towards the present and a vision of a future golden age or utopian world.  They hate the society that supports them.  They are contemptuous of any and all who are not "members" of their elite group.  The rest of society is divided into "the masses" and the evil leaders who deceive them.

4. Interposition of a fact-proof screen between the true believers and reality.  Notice how Dave dismissed the testimony of the North Vietnamese leaders that the Leftist demonstrations had encouraged them to keep on fighting.  Even though they say that is what happened, Dave rejects it.   What is true, for Dave, is what the people who think for him say is true.

The terrorists in Iraq are currently unable to mount any real military operations.  They are forced to resort to the same suicide attacks the Palistinians use against Israel.  The Shiite militia was ground to hamburger in Falujah, and the rest of that crowd now understand that they cannot try to grab parts of Iraq.    Nevertheless, we are "losing".

5. Now the saddest part...."preventing, through the injection of passions, the establishment of a stable equilibrium between the individual and his self." (Hoffer)   

Dave let GG and the assembly do his thinking for many years.  He finally awakened, through pain, to the fact that they were off base.  Now he has a new ideology that allows him more personal freedom, but it is still just as out of touch with reality, and has many of the characteristics of cultic groups.

Dave has posted on the board that one of the reasons he comes here is because we are the only people who understand his past.  This is true.   People outside the group do not, and can not, truly understand what it was like.  People who have a different cultic background can understand much more, but lack that old connection we all seem to feel.

The other reason he posts here is, in his words, "to lead you into the light."  He has a new mission.

Dave will probably remain impervious to our arguments against his beliefs, since they have little to do with facts or logic

IMHO, we can best help Dave by praying for him.

Thomas Maddux

[Recovering Saint]

Chuck

I think you missed my point. GW is the President of a nation as well as believer. As believers our weapons are not carnal as states the weapon is a "sword". When you wear two hats it is difficult to separate but I was speaking of ANY country standing for humanity not just about the US. I stick to the statement. You are narrowing it to American politics and it is not what I meant. We have an obligation to step in and help others like the Tsunami relief etc. We don't need biblical stand it is common sense. I am focused on the common good and the example at hand is Iraq but it could apply to any up and coming dictatorship. As to why not China you figure it out 1.3 billion to 360 million Jesus said figure out the odds before going to war. Yes they have injustices but it would not be prudent to pick a fight with them. As to abortion etc. that is not GWs fault it is the North Americans fault they voted for abortion etc. You are confusing the issue. It is simply a two fold thought protect the Iraqis from unjustly being governed and protect the world from collapsing from insecurity. And the primary job of the Pres no matter who it is would be what? To protect the American people. You have to start somewhere you need to see this is not a theocracy so don't think you can apply the bible to what I am talking about. Much as I agree the bible is the best source that is not what Americans want they want the Constitution because the US and most countries are Secular.

Sorry Chuck you are a wise person but I think you have taken this a new direction. We would need a thread on GWs governing to cover this one.

Lord bless
Hugh