IRAQ A GOOD IDEA?

[DavidM]

Dave,

     

2. There is a sense in which all wars are"'rich man's wars".  It is also true, however, that this is a gross oversimplification of reality.  Boeing Aircraft made millions during WW2 selling B-17s and B-29s to the AAF.  Does that mean that they should not have done it?  Did not the "lower classes" benefit from the prevention of the Fascist states of Germany and Japan taking over the world?


   Just curious why you skipped the Viet-Nam War?  Could it be that declaring war against a country that attacked you might be justifiable?


Speaking as a member of the lower class, I happen to think that they did. (My folks were poor southern whites with grade-school educations.  I know all about poor.) 

    Yes, when the corporate executives at Halliburton go out to eat a filet with a $16 glass of merlot they can leave an extra big tip!

2. The Muslim Jihadis are out to de-stabilize and take over the governments of near eastern states. Imagine how much trouble the world is going to be in if we end up with a nuclear armed Iran dominating Iraq and controlling their oil resources.  When they screw up the world economy your stock prices just might end up in the tank.

Tom I whole-heartedly agree. If we pulled out of Viet-Nam before the job was done then we would have seen every country turn to communism and we would all be speaking Russian by now!

BTW, what is your recommendation for preventing this?

Buy FRPT!!!!!!!

Tom Maddux

[DavidM]

http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2007/05/30/revealed-why-your-sons-and-daughters-died-in-iraq/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.populistamerica.com%2Frevealed_why_your_sons_and_daughters_died_in_iraq&frame=true


I confess I haven't taken the time to research this article, however, I remember when Bush said, " Iraqis must share the oil revenues..." and I just assumed he meant Sunni, Shiite, Kurd etc..." (Spelling)  Yet apparently he meant they were to agree to share it with oil companies.  If this is true it is just another example of why we need to ask questions etc...

[Oscar]

Dave,

You said:

Just curious why you skipped the Viet-Nam War?  Could it be that declaring war against a country that attacked you might be justifiable?

If you had read more carefully, you might have noticed that I said:

The power of the media was demonstrated in the Vietnam era.  They focused on the casualties, ignored victories, heaped criticism on Johnson, excused Kennedy for getting us involved beyond the advisor stage.  They portrayed the North Vietnamese as patriots fighting for "freedom".  They called Ho Chi Minh "The George Washington of Vietnam.  They finally got enough support in Congress to cut off funding for the South Vietnamese a year after we had left.  As a result a couple of million people were brutally murdered and many millions more have lived in poverty and without basic human rights for 30 years.

Times have changed Dave.  In those days the Liberals, (they really were Liberals in those days), believed that resisting the expansion of the Soviet Empire and defending freedom was a good idea.  Remember Kennedy's speech..."We will pay any price, bear any burden, in defense of liberty..." 

Now the "Liberals" are mainly nothing but Leftist Pollyanas.

You also said:

Tom I whole-heartedly agree. If we pulled out of Viet-Nam before the job was done then we would have seen every country turn to communism and we would all be speaking Russian by now!

During the presidencies of Kennedy and Johnson this is was widely believed to be the case.  After Nixon came into office the Lefties that took over the Democratic Party began to ridicule the "Domino Theory" as they called it.  It just wasn't reasonable, they said.

When they voted to abandon the Vietnamese to their fate, the Commies immediately took over Cambodia and Laos.  Indonesia became a Soviet client state for the next 20 years or so.  Only Thailand didn't fall to Communism in that corner of Asia.

So, the Domino Theory wasn't true.  Just mostly true.

But what the heck Dave.  Why should we care if millions of Cambodians were slaughtered for such things as having attended college or wearing glasses?  Why should we care if several million Vietnamese were herded into "re-education" camps and brutalized?  Why should we care if tens of thousands of people drowned, died of thirst, were raped and murdered by Pirates while they tried to escape from their Communist benefactors?  Why should we care if thousands of little girls were taken off those boats and sold into sex slavery? 

For that matter, why should we care if millions of Iraqis become Islamist slaves?

We have more important things to think about....like our personal prosperity and personal peace.

Tom Maddux

[DavidM]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War


   I don't know very much about our involvement in Viet-Nam It seems that "Colonialism" is what started the mess. The French took it over, the vietnamese fought for their independance. You wouldn't hold that against them would you?  Fighting against a foriegn power that has invaded your country? 

  (Correct me if I am wrong) because they chose to be Communist, because Russia funded their government, we perceived this as a threat?  This brought us into another country?  In a sense we told them, "Hey you don't have a right to be communist!"  "Stop that or we will kill you!" (Yes from your perspective we went to give aid, protection and freedom to anyone who oppossed the ideals of communism.)

   While we were fighting the commies in Viet-Nam we were getting our asses kicked!  They had an amazing system of undergound tunnels. Their method of guerilla warfare frustrated the hell out our forces. These guys were fighting against "The Best Army in the World" and they kicked our asses!  Why? Because they believed in what they were fighting for!  They were fighting an enemy who had invaded their country!  It meant everything for them!  It was their country, their livelyhood, their families. What about our soldiers?  What did they have to win? As it is now we recognize their government and participate with them in the world economic market!


    You mentioned the injustices, "murders, killings, rapes,"  Our boys didn't murder, kill, rape? Have you considered the fact that our very involvment distabilized these countries/goverments. (Just like Iraq today!)
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_massacre

     Tom, I have seen footage of U.S. servicemen rounding up Vietnamese villagers. The 4 foot 11 inch adults pleading for their lives, bowing at the waist with their hands folded in prayer towards their "liberators" as they watch our "Brave Soldiers" torch their every possesion. You want to tell me I am a victim of the "liberal media"? 


    Tom my bad attitude has to do with the fact that our government is being controled by an elite few who refuse to bring justice to crooks like Cheney, Bush, Rove etc.  If I was like you perhaps I wouldn't be such a cinical burnout. I would believe Bush when he says, "We are over their bringing freedom to the Iraqi people." The obvious truth is, It has to with POWER, MONEY, CONTROLE. Didn't you learn this in the Assembly?


  P.S. You seem to find democrats responsible for everything wrong in our history, "Domino Theory  etc..." Yet, when it comes to Republicans you say things like, "mistakes" Its like the Republicans are the leadership in the Assembly and the Democrats are the Catholic Church!  I think you need to take a step back and look at things a little more objectively. I think you need to ask questions, "Could there be another reason why Bush lead us into this war?" "Is it possible that brother George is wrong?"


   

   

[DavidM]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domino_theory

Tom, here is your Domino Theorist Democrat Dwight D. Eisenhower! Oh, I would just like to reafirm your "Polyana" comment. No doubt you heard about that Representative, Democrat (Fox News) Mark Foley. This guy is an admitted child predetor!  He spent his time pursueing relationships with underage boys over the internet. What our country needs is men like representative, Republican? Jim Web!  Yep, the former military man who wears his son's boots, (His son is in Iraq) Is a real man's man!  When George bush walked up to and said, "How's ya boy?"  he responded "That' between me and my boy  ...!"  Yesiree A man's man!  Oh wait a minute I think I got this mixed up?  Oh well, you know what I'm gettin at!  Semper Fi!

[Oscar]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domino_theory

Tom, here is your Domino Theorist Democrat Dwight D. Eisenhower! Oh, I would just like to reafirm your "Polyana" comment. No doubt you heard about that Representative, Democrat (Fox News) Mark Foley. This guy is an admitted child predetor!  He spent his time pursueing relationships with underage boys over the internet. What our country needs is men like representative, Republican? Jim Web!  Yep, the former military man who wears his son's boots, (His son is in Iraq) Is a real man's man!  When George bush walked up to and said, "How's ya boy?"  he responded "That' between me and my boy  ...!"  Yesiree A man's man!  Oh wait a minute I think I got this mixed up?  Oh well, you know what I'm gettin at!  Semper Fi!

Dave,

I will reply to your previous post a little later. 

Regarding this post:

1. Regarding the link you gave, the Domino Theory was named by Eisenhower.  However, the Wikipedia article specifically says that Truman reasoned in the same way when he sent aid to stop the Communists from taking over Greece and Turkey.  Eisenhower gave the idea a name, but it was not new to him as a concept.

2. The best I can do with what you said about Mark Foley is that it seems as if you think "Pollyana" means an effeminate man or a sissy, something like that.

Actually it means a person who cannot deal with the presence of real evil and therefore cannot deal with it realistically.   When I used the term "Lefty Pollyanas" I was pointing out that the left in this current dispute attempt to say that all we need to do is talk to people and the problem will go away.  I suppose they think we will have "peace in our time", just as Neville Chamberlain thought that piece of paper he waved at the cameras would stop Adolph Hitler.  So maybe I should have said "Leftist modern day Neville Chamberlains".

In reality, Muslims began their hatred of Christians and Jews in the 7th century.  They hate us because they think we are all Christians.  For 14 centuries they have invaded "Christian" lands and oppressed those who live in them whenever they have had the military power to do so.

The only way we have ever stopped them is by defeating them.

Tom Maddux

[Oscar]

Folks,

Here is a recent article by Cal Thomas.

Aquarius sunset

By Cal Thomas

 
 
 
http://www.JewishWorldReview.com | The ideologically decrepit anti-war crowd returned to Washington last weekend for a reunion. The older among them abandoned hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of Vietnamese to imprisonment, torture, death and re-education camps. Their demonstrations were encouraging to the communist Vietnamese, sending the message that America lacked the will to win. These aging hippies and their progeny now want to do the same to millions of Iraqis, who have democratically elected their leaders.


This is the sunset of the "Age of Aquarius." Yesterday, when they were young, they were the pampered generation that eschewed self-control for self-indulgence. They were (and are) so vain; they probably thought the world was about them. They were the redeeming generation that would save their parents from their sins by ending war, curing racism and cleaning the air and water. Their failure has long been obvious to all but them. To them, intentions, not success, are paramount. Because they believe their intentions are noble, they absolve themselves from the negative consequences of their actions.


As with the Vietnam anti-war protests, several of the same Hollywood actors spoke against the effort to make Iraq a stable and independent nation. Hollywood is the land of make-believe where love means never having to say you're sorry and acting means never having to take responsibility for your words and behavior, which are written and directed by others. These stars live behind gates with security alarms and guards who protect their privileged lives.


Is there anyone else's freedom these celebrities would defend? Do any other lives have value beyond their own? Since none of the older demonstrators took responsibility for what occurred in the aftermath of the Vietnam War, would any like to pledge now that if their protests help embolden the insurgents and Taliban to fight on until Iraq is in their clutches they will accept blame?


Why do these people always oppose America's efforts to defend itself and others? Why did they not protest in Washington, or in Baghdad, when Saddam Hussein was practicing genocide and his sons were raping and torturing their fellow Iraqis? Will we ever see an anti-Taliban protest? How about a demonstration against suicide bombers, or even those who produce and detonate roadside bombs in Iraq? Why do these people think only their country is evil? 


This is the doctrine of the privileged and the pampered. It is salvation on the cheap. It makes the protestors feel good, even righteous, but does nothing to solve the problem, which isn't the United States, but a very real enemy that intends to kill us. Unlike Vietnam, the Islamofascists won't leave us alone if we leave Iraq before stability is established. They will send more fanatics to our shores. Watch the TV drama "24" for what could be our prophetic and imminent future with a nuclear device exploding in major cities. Having concluded we don't have the stomach to fight them on their turf, they might understandably deduce we are even less willing to fight them on ours.


While President Bush may have chosen Iraq and Afghanistan to counterattack in this war, the war would have come — and, indeed, had already come prior to the attacks on these two countries — had he decided to do nothing.


"Peace is controversial," said Jesse Jackson last weekend. His comment has about as much relevance in an age of terror as a declaration against lust. Peace doesn't result when America does nothing to confront evil. Peace comes through facing and defeating evil wherever and whenever we can. If freedom is not on the march against tyranny, then tyranny will be on the march against freedom. Neither is static. Peace doesn't "happen." To the extent peace can be attained on earth, it arrives through strength and willpower.


Forty years ago, the protestors pledged to achieve:




Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revelation
And the mind's true liberation

They liberated neither their minds, nor the world. The Vietnamese who were murdered were not liberated. Today's terrorists will not be defeated if we embrace the inane doctrines of the protestors.


A better song for them might be Brenda Lee's "I'm Sorry," the first part of which goes:




"I'm sorry, so sorry
That I was such a fool…"
.

[Joe Sperling]

That Cal Thomas article made me think of this familiar children's story:



Once there was a Little Red Hen who lived in a barnyard with her three chicks and a duck, a pig and a cat.

One day the Little Red Hen found some grains of wheat. "Look look!" she clucked. "Who will help me plant this wheat?"

"Not I", quacked the duck, and he waddled away.

"Not I", oinked the pig, and he trotted away.

"Not I, meowed the cat, and he padded away.

"Then I will plant it myself," said the Little Red Hen. And she did.

When the wheat was tall and golden, the Little Red Hen knew it was ready to be cut. "Who will help me cut the wheat?" she asked.

"Not I," said the duck.

"Not I," said the pig.

"Not I," said the cat

"Then I will cut this wheat myself". And she did.

"Now", said the Little Red Hen, "it is time to take the wheat to the miller so he can grind it into flour. Who will help me?"

"Not I," said the duck.

"Not I," said the pig.

"Not I," said the cat.

"Then I will take the wheat to the miller myself," said the Little Red Hen. And she did.

The miller ground the wheat into fine white flour and put it into a sack for the Little Red Hen.

When she returned to the barnyard, the Little Red Hen asked, "Who will help me make this flour into dough?"

Not I," said the duck, the pig and the cat all at once.

"Then I will make the dough myself," said the Little Red Hen. And she did.

When the dough was rready to go into the oven, the Little Red Hen asked, "Who will help me bake the bread?"

"Not I," said the duck.

"Not I," said the pig.

"Not I," said the cat.

"Then I wll bake it myself," said the Little Red Hen. And she did.

Soon the bread was ready. As she took it from the oven, the Little Red Hen asked, "Well who wil help me eat this warm, fresh bread?"

"I will," said the duck.

"I will," said the pig.

"I will," said the cat.

"No you won't," said the Little Red Hen. "You wouldn't help me plant the seeds, cut the wheat, go to the miller, make the dough or bake the bread. Now, my three chicks and I will eat this bread ourselves!"

And that's just what they did.

Unfortunately, the liberals in America who refuse to stay involved in anything for the long haul WILL get to eat the bread, the fruit of the labors of so many who gave their lives to depose a dictator who used chemical weapons on his own people. Liberals are always valiant at the beginning, but when it comes to the long haul they quickly fall to the wayside, blame their own country for atrocities, forget the atrocities perpetrated by the offender, and are quick to give up the original cause when it gets too tough or doesn't go their way. Liberals are filled with slogans and "ideals", but lacking in that character that endures and wins a conflict. Our pull-out of Vietnam was a disgrace, and led to millions of Vietnamese boat people coming to the United States to escape the oppressive government we gave them up to. Vietnam was a battle that could have been won---but because of a bunch of idealistic "whiners" millions of Vietnamese were abandoned, and left to toil under an oppressive Communist regime. The liberals will eat the bread--the freedom gained and assured to them--while at the same time complaining about the cost and dedication needed to keep that bread on their tables.

Despite the slant given by the media, and many others, the majority of the Iraqi people do not want the U.S. to leave---they know that if we abandon them they will quickly be forced to live under a regime that is probably worse than Saddam-----a strict, funadamentalist, Islamic regime, much like the Taliban. Because of some "whiners" here in the U.S. we will consign thousands of women to cruel, legalistic religious life-imprisonment. Millions who have just begun to taste what freedom is will be thrown once again into slavery---but this time not under a secular dictator, but under a religious dictatorship.

These anti-war people "care" so much for the Iraqi people, that they are willing to abandon them to a cruel fate. After we withdraw our troops too early and consign them to this fate, these same anti-war people will enjoy the bread others have slaved for, and find another "cause" to back. "Make love not war" is a great sounding slogan of the 60's--I'm sure the Vietnamese people abandoned to Communism after that war have posters with those words tacked to the walls of their huts (yeah--sure they do). And I'm sure the Iraqi people we give up on, and abandon, will have pictures of Nancy Pelosi and Senator Reid on the walls of their houses also.   

[trac4yt]

Interesting...

http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=11163

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Antichrist/anti_05.htm

[outdeep]

Another interesting article by Joseph Lieberman for the fray:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007611

[trac4yt]

Is there not a man-god that can finally set things right over there?
Then we could all have "peace".
(uh-oh)

"But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer."(1Pe 4:7)

[BenJapheth]

Hello All...

This is the first time that I've been back to the site in probably a couple years. I had to google GG to find the link, it's been so long.  Seems like most of the old Assembly crowd has moved onto other places.  That's good, I'm sure - The site is serving a different purpose today than it did in 2003.  Reviewing some of the old posts sure brought back some memories - Wow.

My family is fine - Ann is well.  Our five kids are growing-up and out.  My three oldest sons are on their own now - Ben's a Creative Director - Web Designer (as well as a reserve soldier), Jon is in the Army Special Forces, and Mike is in pre-med studies and is going to Iraq in two weeks as a Combat Medic (He's a reserve soldier and has been activated).  Ann and I have three sons in the military - not sure how that happened; I never served, I wasn't a hunter - nor, do I even own a gun.  Nellie is now a high school Junior and Sal our adopted son from Sierra Leone Africa is now a 6th grader...The house is getting empty for sure.

The Millers are having a big reunion next month in Nebraska - Chuck Miller is turning 80...Also, the Sjogren's daughter Kate is getting married - We're having a big get-together up there (We're in Kansas - so, it's a drive North)...the family from Illinois and California are coming as well.  Chuck Miller and MaryAnn are fine - they live a couple miles from us in an indepent living facility for the elderly.  They really enjoy it, I think.

The Millers have something like 35 grandkids now and two or three great-grandkids.  Spiritually the family has wound-up in a variety of places.  Some have deepened their faith and others are keeping "Christianity" a bit at arms length.  For all of us, there are lots of scars and pain.   Some of us are still not coping well with life, the Lord, the church, and what it all means.  However, I think everyone is becoming more real and more honest.  This is a big step for the family.  Slowly reconciliation appears to be happening, but the wounds are deep - So, it is slow.

There are several folks that I've fallen out of touch with and I just wanted to put down my email if there's a need for someone to get back in-touch with me.

There are many dear folks in this community...We all have shared some painful times.

Your friend...Chuck

chuck@vanant.com

::c:v::

Chuck

[Oscar]

Folks,

Here is a link to an interesting article by a former Muslim radical.  He claims that they regularly laughed about the media explanations that terrorism was caused by poverty in the Muslim world.  He then goes on to explain that the terrorists are actually motivated by a particular type of Muslim theological reasoning.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=465570&in_page_id=1770

Tom Maddux

[DavidM]

Hey!  FRPT up $1.94 today! SUPPORT THE TROOPS!  

[DavidM]

Here is a link to an interesting article by a former Muslim radical.  He claims that they regularly laughed about the media explanations that terrorism was caused by poverty in the Muslim world.  He then goes on to explain that the terrorists are actually motivated by a particular type of Muslim theological reasoning.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=465570&in_page_id=1770

Tom Maddux

    Forgive me Tom, are you saying the  Muslim religion teaches people to kill?

  btw Just this last week, at a mosque here in Irvine the members turned in one of their own over to the authorities because he started talking about "Jihad". Muslims who believe that their religion justifies the killing  of innocents are just as deceived as Christians who believe it is God's Will to shoot "Family Planning Doctors"  To point at a fanatic and say, "See they are all like that." is grossly prejudice. So I know you aren't saying that?