IRAQ A GOOD IDEA?

[Oscar]

David,

You asked:

 Forgive me Tom, are you saying the  Muslim religion teaches people to kill?

I read through the Koran back in 1962 when I was about 20 years old.  I don't remember all I read.  I do, however, remember that I was shocked by the verses that advocated killing unbelievers.  Here are a couple of verses that apply to this:


    1- "O believers, fight the unbelievers who are near to you, and let them find in you a harshness; and know that Allah is with the godfearing" (Sura al-Tawba 9:123).

    2- "Fight against those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger, have forbidden -- such men as practice not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book -- until they pay tribute out of hand and have been humbled" (Sura al-Tawba 9:29).

"Those who have been given the book" means Christians and Jews.

    3- "The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;" (Sura Al Ma idah 5:33).

I haven't been able to find another verse I remember reading, but what it said was that if you, (a Muslim), are fighting unbelievers you are to offer them the chance to convert.  if they do, enslave them. If they refuse, kill them.

Dave, I am the online instructor for a class in World Religions and Science, offered through Hope International University.  So I have done some study about Islam and other major religions.

Islam is a large religion with many branches and internal disagreements.  When Muslim leaders take these verses, (and others), and combine them with a certain understanding of Islam's policy on war, the community of their followers becomes downright dangerous.

In general, Muslims ascribe to five principles about holy war. Stated simply they are:

1. Physical violence cannot be used to advance Islam.

2. Islam is to be spread by rational appeal and persuasion.

3. War is allowable in self-defense.

4. If a country does not allow the free expression of Islam, those actions constitute physical aggression against Islam.  This includes any laws that prohibit any Islamic practices. Muslims can make war to liberate the "oppressed" Muslims.

5. Once a country has had an Islamic government it belongs to Dar-al-Islam, (The House of Submission).  It can never be allowed to revert to non-Islamic hands.

In the past, during the era of state religions, Muslim armies invaded non-Muslim countries on the basis of #4.  The Muslim refusal to recognize Israel is based on #5.  Even the prohibition of Muslim polygamy is seen by many Muslims as a violation of #4. Since Western countries have universal adult suffrage, we are all seen as guilty of making laws against Islam.

So, the answer to your question is that for many Muslims, Islam teaches them to kill non-Muslims.  All it takes is for a Muslim to come under the influence of a teacher who convinces him that we have broken their rules.

There are many Muslims who do not go along with these ideas.  However, the radical's tendency to kill folks that oppose them severly limits public dissent.

So, I guess I would answer, "yes and no", but enough yes to make me quite worried.

Thomas Maddux

[DavidM]

Has Bush met his benchmarks?


http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=HAL&t=5y


OHHHH YYYYEEEEAAA!!!!!

[DavidM]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/01/AR2007070101356.html

[DavidM]

Wow! Iraqi Prime Minister says we can leave!




 

July 14, 2007 2:19 PM EDT
BAGHDAD - Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki shrugged off U.S. doubts of his government's military and political progress on Saturday, saying Iraqi forces are capable and American troops can leave "any time they want."

One of his top aides, meanwhile, accused the United States of embarrassing the Iraqi government by violating human rights and treating his country like an "experiment in a U.S. lab."

Al-Maliki sought to display confidence at a time when pressure is mounting in Congress for a speedy withdrawal of U.S. forces. On Thursday, the House passed a measure calling for the U.S. to withdraw its troops by spring, hours after the White House reported mixed progress by the Iraqi government toward meeting 18 benchmarks.


During a press conference, al-Maliki shrugged off the progress report, saying that difficulty in enacting the reforms was "natural" given Iraq's turmoil.

"We are not talking about a government in a stable political environment but one in the shadow of huge challenges," al-Maliki said. "So when we talk about the presence of some negative points in the political process, that's fairly natural."

Al-Maliki said his government needs "time and effort" to enact the political reforms that Washington seeks - "particularly since the political process is facing security, economic and services pressures, as well as regional and international interference."

But he said if necessary, Iraqi police and soldiers could fill the void left by the departure of coalition forces.

"We say in full confidence that we are able, God willing, to take the responsibility completely in running the security file if the international forces withdraw at any time they want," he said.

One of al-Maliki's close advisers, Shiite lawmaker Hassan al-Suneid, bristled over the American pressure, telling The Associated Press that "the situation looks as if it is an experiment in an American laboratory (judging) whether we succeed or fail."

He sharply criticized the U.S. military, saying it was committing human rights violations and embarrassing the Iraqi government through such tactics as building a wall around Baghdad's Sunni neighborhood of Azamiyah and launching repeated raids on suspected Shiite militiamen in the capital's slum of Sadr City.

He also criticized U.S. overtures to Sunni groups in Anbar and Diyala provinces, encouraging former insurgents to join the fight against al-Qaida in Iraq. "These are gangs of killers," he said.

In addition, he said that al-Maliki has problems with the top U.S. commander, Gen. David Petraeus, who he said works along a "purely American vision."

"There are disagreements that the strategy that Petraeus is following might succeed in confronting al-Qaida in the early period but it will leave Iraq an armed nation, an armed society and militias," al-Suneid said.

Al-Suneid's comments were a rare show of frustration toward the Americans from within al-Maliki's inner circle as the prime minister struggles to overcome deep divisions between Shiite, Sunni and Kurdish members of his coalition and enact the U.S.-drawn list of benchmarks.

But the U.S. focus on the benchmarks has rankled the deep sense of Iraqi pride, even among those who share the goals set forth by the Americans.

U.S. forces have been waging intensified security crackdowns in Baghdad and areas to the north and south for nearly a month. The goal is to bring calm to the capital while al-Maliki enacts the political reforms, intended to give Sunni Arabs a greater role in the government and political process, lessening support for the insurgency.

But the benchmarks have been blocked by divisions among Shiite, Sunni and Kurdish leaders. In August, the parliament is taking a one-month vacation - a shorter break than the usual two months, but still enough to anger some in Congress who say lawmakers should push through reforms while American soldiers are dying.

Two more American soldiers were killed Saturday in bombings in the Baghdad area, the U.S. military reported. One of the bombs used was an explosively formed penetrator - high-tech devices that the U.S. military believes are smuggled from Iran. The Iranians deny the charge.

In other violence, a car bomb leveled a two-story apartment building and a suicide bomber plowed his explosives-packed vehicle into a line of cars at a gas station. The two attacks killed at least eight people, police said.


Also Saturday, the U.S. military said it captured an alleged high-level al-Qaida in Iraq cell leader at Baghdad's international airport. The suspect, believed to have organized mortar and roadside bomb attacks in the capital and nearby area, surrendered "without a struggle," the military said in a statement.

It did not give details on the suspect or say whether he was traveling in or out of the country when seized.

The Reuters news agency said one of its Iraqi translators was shot to death in Baghdad on Wednesday along with two of his brothers, apparent victims of sectarian death squads. He was the third employee of the news agency killed in Baghdad this week.

An Iraqi reporter for The New York Times, Khalid W. Hassan, was killed by gunmen Friday as he drove to work in southern Baghdad.

[Oscar]

Folks,

On this morning's news I heard a sound clip from a recent speech by Hillary Clinton.  She announced, "The surge is working in Anbar province and in other places as well."

US senators have access to information we that we don't know about yet.  I wonder what she heard.  It sounds to me as if she is thinking "Uh Oh, we might win this thing and I had better get in position to be able to claim that I backed it all along".

Time will tell.

I wonder if Harry Reid has finished surrendering yet?


Tom Maddux

[DavidM]

Tom,

   Although Hillary has stated the failures of the administration I have never heard her say she was for leaving. For her to say the surge is working doesn't make her a "flip-Flopper" If I am correct she has supported the war, along with the vast majority of Democrats, all the way from day 1. 


   As far as Iraq being a good idea! Just about everyone has conceded it was a bad idea! Do I need to post an address that supports this statement?  Will the surge work?  What do they mean by work? The only thing they are concerned about is "The sharing of the oil revenues!" (Quote from Bush two days ago.) This means sharing it with Exxon, Standard, Shell etc...

   Even if we were to decide to "cut and run" today we would still need two years to just get the equipment out! 

     I see 6 more years of occupation, 6 more years of pouring billions of our American tax dollars into a Bush devastated nation. 6 more years of U.S. soldiers dying so Cheney and friends can eat at 5 star restaurants and put around on 50 million dollar yachts.


  What disgusts me most about all of this mess is the fact that 8o% + Christians in the U.S.A. (you included) strongly supported invading a country based on pure propaganda! You ignored the fact that innocent people would die. I can't figure out how this is Christian? Why did you guys do this? Couldn't you just ask some simple questions like, "Mr. President, could we please see some real evidence of Saddam's nuclear weapons program?" or "Mr. President could the weapons inspectors give the American people a clear report as to what they have seen in Iraq on March of 03?"


   The simple fact is "You were had" During the early 90's George Bush went on all the Televangelist programs to anounce, "I believe God wants me to become President of the United States." He said all the right things, attended CBS "Community Bible Study", repenting of his former lifestyle of drunkeness etc... Pretty soon every Christian minister in the country was pushing their congregation to "Vote for the canidate that represents your values!" The rest is history! I can't understand why Unitarians, who are ignorant blind heathens, could see it yet, Born Again Christians, who have the Holy Spirit, could not?


   You have helped bring our country into its present condition. Thanks!




     

[Joe Sperling]

I see 6 more years of occupation, 6 more years of pouring billions of our American tax dollars into a Bush devastated nation. 6 more years of U.S. soldiers dying so Cheney and friends can eat at 5 star restaurants and ride around on 50 million dollar yachts.    .............

The rest is history! I can't understand why Unitarians, who are ignorant blind heathens, could see it yet, Born Again Christians, who have the Holy Spirit, could not?


   You have helped bring our country into its present condition. Thanks!

Thanks for those two very important points. It is an established fact that there are no Unitarians who eat at 5 star restaurants or own 50 million dollar yachts. And secondly, every one of them clearly saw that we should not enter Iraq---Unitarians are very special people and I would hope that each one of us stop for a moment and say a word of thanks to the wise Unitarians---they had far more information than the rest of us had concerning WMD's in Iraq--they knew the information coming from the CIA and being given to Bush was wrong due to their amazing common sense. We born-again Christians with the Holy Spirit should have known the CIA was giving the wrong information to Bush. What do we learn from this? if you want to make any major decisions, don't pray---ask a Unitarian.


 

[trac4yt]

Quite an awesome scenario..

http://www.rawstory.com/images/other/IranStudy082807a.pdf

[Oscar]

Trac4ty,

Awesome is right.  I checked with www.snopes.com, a site that investigates urban legends and internet frauds.  No mention of it there.

However, I did find this.  Snopes says it is valid.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp

It would seem that "Bush lied and people died is just a tad too narrowly focused. 

Tom Maddux

[doug]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07/20070717-3.html

[doug]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/08/20040827-8.html

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070509-12.html

[doug]

Does anyone out there think that mike huckabee is a true christian. Or at least as much of one as a politician can be?

[Mark C.]

Hi Doug,

  Only God really knows what is going on inside of a person.  This leaves us with the sole option to observe behavior ("by their fruits you shall know them").  Jimmah Carter  (Jimmy Carter) professes to be a born again Christian, and supposedly witnessed to Anwar Sadat when he visited the US, but I would never vote for someone like him for President.

  I think when voting for a civil leader of a country it is best to vote for the candidate that best shares the kind of values a Christain can support vs. what their profession of faith might be.  I'd rather have a Romney, with his cultic theology, leading the country than a Jimmah Carter with his wacko Michael Moore views of the world and government.

                                                           God Bless,  Mark C.

[Oscar]

Hi Doug,

  Only God really knows what is going on inside of a person.  This leaves us with the sole option to observe behavior ("by their fruits you shall know them").  Jimmah Carter  (Jimmy Carter) professes to be a born again Christian, and supposedly witnessed to Anwar Sadat when he visited the US, but I would never vote for someone like him for President.

  I think when voting for a civil leader of a country it is best to vote for the candidate that best shares the kind of values a Christain can support vs. what their profession of faith might be.  I'd rather have a Romney, with his cultic theology, leading the country than a Jimmah Carter with his wacko Michael Moore views of the world and government.

                                                           God Bless,  Mark C.

Ditto!

Tom Maddux

[doug]

I'ts a pretty sad comment on the unfortunate state of American governance and the client pool when someone posits a choice between a mormon and a michael moore clone.
What about someone who had a sterling record in the senate but who secretly practiced witchcraft?