Do We Have to Keep Our Commitments?

[outdeep]

I guess you have a point, Delila.  I was told by a marriage counselor that when a relationship gets to the point where each depises the other (essentially writes them off in their heart), there is really nothing they can do.

Too bad it gets that far.

Nevertheless, the kids are always still hurt.

[delila]

Yup Dave, Verne:

Line up the firing squad.  I'm currently filing for divorce.  Out of consideration for the children, I will wait out the year and not file on the grounds of 'cruelty'.  There's no adultery either.  

Now I'll wait here, real still so you can line up your verses and fire.

-incorrigible cynic
Delila

[outdeep]

I feel offended being drawn into this as my original point had to do with my learning that changing jobs and Boy Scout situations is sometimes healthy just as staying put is something healthy.   As stressful as my family life has been at times, I never saw my marriage in the same category of committment as my job.

I'm not going to analyze your divorse from across the country on a bulletin board.  Why do you want me to fire verses at you?  So you can confirm to your heart that we Christians are nothing but insensitive, out-of-touch prudes who follow a God who is irrelevant?

Divorse is legal and it's a free country that values personal choice as the highest virtue.  Go do what you want and live with the consequences.

[al Hartman]

Dave, Verne,

     Lighten up.  First of all, Delila wasn't speaking exclusively to the two of you, but to us all.  Yeah, yeah, I know she addressed her comments to you by name, but if you've really read all her posts, you know that she's still recovering from the post-traumatic stress (shell-shock) that has beset us all at some point after leaving the covering of the wet blanket.  She's had a tough time, she's still in a tough situation, she's concerned for her kids & she's only recently started calling on the Lord again & fellowshipping with His people.


Delila,

     Lighten up.  You aren't in prison the assembly any more.  You don't have to be so defensive about your decisions or so sensitive when someone's opinion differs from yours.  We love you & are on your side.  (I'm speaking in the plural here-- someone correct me if I'm wrong).
     This isn't the first time you've had a chip on your shoulder, Sis, & dared someone to knock it off.  My advice is that you should "knock it off."  You're so sure that some brother is going to blast you that you want to strike a preemptive blow.  Give us half a chance to show you that we don't want to be the bad guys anymore.
     

     Now that I have endeared myself to the three of you, can we set personal feelings aside & address real issues?  OK, I know our feelings are real issues to us.  But seriously, who is on the Lord's side?  What else matters?

     Anybody seeking counsel here?  Ask your questions...

     Anyone have a contribution to make?  Have at it...

     Someone have an apology to make??  Well, then...


     This post may be the worst idea I've had in a while, but I love you guys & I don't want to see hard feelings grow between you.


Marcia, Brent, Eulaha, Arthur, Anyone,

     Someone please post & save me before I blurt again...

al

[Kimberley Tobin]

You forgot me Al!  

I already responded on the thread about "I want to talk about the curse" regarding this same situation.

Most of the people on this BB, posting, are men.  Us woman are outnumbered, I believe (the daily posters, that is.)  PLEASE have some compassion on Delila.  Al aptly described the outline of Delila's situation and I, for one, would like to see us reach out to Delila to show her that we are different;  With compassion.

She is still being told today that what happened to her in Canada was her own fault and that she is "the Scarlet Woman."  If we were in a war, she would be bleeding by the roadside with bullet wounds and shrapnel everywhere.  Would you save that one by "winning the argument" with logical answers?  No, you would bring that one to a hospital and begin treating her wounds, very tenderly and with great kindness.  And some of the wounds wouldn't even be apparent.  Wars produce numerous men and women suffering from psychological damage.  This is what we are dealing with, let's be cognizant of that (and for the future Delila's.)

[outdeep]

I broke an important personal rule - never submit writing when I am angry and I was angry last night.

I also want to apologize for making a sweeping judgement based on a couple of posts.  I didn't have the time (nor the interest) to look up all of Delila's posts to understand her better.

However, in some measure of defense, Kimberly, I don't believe the situation is that I wanted to beat Delila down with logical arguments.  That is the very sterotype that I was trying to fight.  

In my original post, I was attempting to make an encouraging statement about change.  I wanted to clarify about marriage so people didn't think that I was saying that we can change marriages like we change jobs.  I wasn't trying to make a statement about anyone in particular.

Delila obviously took my statement as an attack on her.  So in my following post, I attempted to back off my statement and say that I understand that some marriages get to the place that no one can help it.

But, apparently that was not enough as Delila still interpreted it as an attack on her and gave her defiant "I'm doing what I'm doing so why don't you line up and shoot me with Bible verses" statement.

Frankly, that is a sore spot with me right now.  I am incredibly grieved over the blatant disregard for any consideration of God's truth from the homosexual lobby who are saying similar statements:  "We are going to marry in spite of law, in spite of how it affects society, in spite of how it affects our children and you can just line up with your irrelevant Bible verses and beat me over the head, but we're still doing it."

So, when I heard a similar statement from a sister, it just pushed me over the line.

I'm sorry, Delila, because it is probably true that you are not acting out of maliciousness, but out of hurt.  We all say things we shouldn't because we are angry or afraid.  I believe as a general principle that the Lord can bring reconciliation in non-abusive marriages if one party chooses humility.   I really don't have an opinion about your marriage in particluar because I don't know the details and I have no expertese in marriage reconciliation.

[Kimberley Tobin]

This is why I hate BB's.    It is very one dimensional in it's communication and difficult to dialogue when such sensative topics are being broached.

Dave, I wasn't making my comments DIRECTLY to you.  If the shoe fits.....We can all get a little touchy and defensive re: our personal posts.  These are our thoughts, put out in public for all to see.......and to criticize.

The ice berg illustration that Al used on the "I want to talk about the curse" thread, is a very potent and illustrative analogy.  Communicating amongst ourselves here is just seeing the "tip of the iceberg".  In each of our lives, there is very possibly a huge, behemoth of an iceberg underneath, that none of us see.  In our posts to one another, without knowing the "iceberg underneath", we can rub each other the wrong way, say things that we think couldn't possibly hurt, etc, etc, etc.  

My main point ............ and please everyone hear this.......is to try and relate to one another with compassion, and to be particularly sensative to new posters who don't have the history of knowing each of us and our little quirks and mannerisms.  These are the walking wounded who come here as new posters with a HUGE history (usually) that they bring to bear here.

[al Hartman]

You forgot me Al!  

Kimberley,
     Be assured I did not forget you, dear heart!  I was simply calling upon the most recent posters on this thread.  I always count on you to be a voice of sanity in the midst of turmoil.  (Unless, of course, it is your turmoil! )


     It must be time once again to point out to everyone how easy it is to misinterpret the intentions and the very words of those who post.  Our written words lack the intimacy of tone-of-voice, facial expression, hand gestures and body language, making it extremely difficult to speak with clarity & very easy to misunderstand & be misunderstood.  That is why it is so important to pray about both our posts and what we read.
     Statements made tongue-in-cheek can come across as downright cheeky.  Anxiety, anger, humor, encouragement are difficult to express in words alone.  The natural human tendency is to see the worst when reading mail & wish for the best when writing it.  We must learn to let the Holy Spirit be our interpreter when speaking and when listening.

     Another thing we should be mindful of when we get our undies in a bunch:  Is the issue at hand truly the issue?  If the principle at stake isn't roundly focused upon Jesus Christ's work of redemption, chances are it is subterfuge, a spiritual scud missile attack if you will, launched by the enemy of our souls to divert our attention from the real topic du jour.
     Maybe the hype is overblown, but the upcoming opening of the film The Passion of the Christ could be a wonderful vehicle of recovery for the Christian community and a harvest of souls.  Could that be why we are being bombarded with distractions centered on personal feelings & non-issues?

     What do you think?

Praise God from Whom all blessings flow,
al

[outdeep]

Dave, I wasn't making my comments DIRECTLY to you.  If the shoe fits.....We can all get a little touchy and defensive re: our personal posts.  These are our thoughts, put out in public for all to see.......and to criticize.

The point of my last post is that the shoe doesn't fit.  Nevertheless, good thoughts otherwise.

[delila]

I have a mouth on me, no doubt.  And fingers too, that type faster than I speak, generally.

I have this to say about marriage, about homosexuals, about any 'issue' or 'topic' for which one can reach into their tissue thin pages and pull out a verse, or fire verses from guns as I mentioned earlier:

What are the scriptures?
Somebody else's mail?
Quotes?
Words, word of God?  A collection of geneologies, records of various coloured peoples and their fathers and sons, with a few women thrown in?

And I have another question:

What would Jesus have done?

The answers to these questions tell us much about our individual religions.  But to do justice and to love mercy and to walk humbly with thy God.  What is pure and undefiled religion?  NO, I'm not finished.  Bear with me.

Here's a George trap:
To believe that the verses in the bible can be fired like a pop gun in order to fix people's lives.  We make bold statements on the BB about issues like divorce, and here I speak not simply for myself.  We made similar bold statements to one another in the gg dynasty about what was 'God's will' in our lives, like we knew.  

Can we do this?  Can we just take a notion: God hates divorce, for example and pass it out like we're feeding the ten thousand with it?  Do we think we do anyone a favour by raving about homosexuals and their right or no rights to marriage?  Does this heal people?  Does this help anyone?  Or are we continuing the GG traditions like faithful ones, dishin' it out.

I don't know If I'll call myself a Christian.  I admire Christ, his treatment of those who were stepped on, how he didn't just quote scripture and tell people to submit and then pass on.  Take three Eph 2 or 3's and call me in the morning.  I think, instead, I'll stick with my conscience, consider scripture, question and learn and rethink and figure and say:  I don't know,  but I think...

I think.  I'll be very careful to pass judgement on other people's lives.  The divorce rates have risen over the past couple decades haven't they?  More domestic abuse is reported now too.  More shelters for abused women exist now too.  I've worked in many of them as a family crisis worker while I went to university.  We can not look at numbers and statistics and think for a moment that we know anything about the reality of people's hell.  To say that God hates divorce, well, he may not like licorice either, or cotton candy, I don't know.  But I know he loves the protection of the downtrodden and many verses too precious little to procure that.

Cheers

Delila

[delila]

Epiphany:
I've made people mad.  People are mad, offended because I wrote that I expected to be shot full of holes by verse shooting Christians.  I expected to be shot full of holes for writing about choosing divorce.  People don't like to think of themselves as capable of shooting others full of holes.  People don't like to be acccused of being ready to shoot others full of holes.  People don't like to be accused of hurting others.  Epiphany: Now I understand why you're all so mad.  Now I get it.

Al and Kimberly: Put away your umbrellas.  I don't expect a stoning today.

Al: icebergs?  Ice makes my teeth hurt.  I don't even like cold water.  I drink green tea lots.  Maybe too much, lately.  But don't worry.  It's not fermented.

Cheers!

Delila

[al Hartman]

     We sometimes/often/usually/always fail to recognize that there are many universes-- as many as there are us.  We don't take into account that, although many of our universes overlap, some extremely closely, I can only occupy the dead-center of my own.
     No two perspectives are precisely the same.  My universe revolves around me-- yours around you, etc.  In my universe I may be a great explorer, scholar, oracle and healer and, being such, think that I have far-reaching insights into your universe:  I discover what makes me tick, and assume that enables me to understand what makes you tick.
     There are a couple of problems with such an assumption:  First, I will never attain to the level of self-understanding necessary for self-healing & regeneration.  Furthermore, I cannot begin to comprehend your viewpoint, no matter how much I may suppose that I do.  The very best I can achieve in this direction is to appreciate that you have an outlook that is uniquely your own.

     There is a solution to the dilemma of being lacking in every essential, and it is not in introspection or in getting together and comparing notes.
     The first step is to recognize that I am indeed the bullseye in the center of my reality.
     The second is to accept and confess that the puzzle of my existence is too vast and complex for me to solve in one lifetime, or in several.
     Third is to awake to the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ took on a human universe of His own and mastered it completely and successfully from start to end, thus qualifying uniquely to achieve the same for you and me.
     This is the point at which I must surrender the pilot's chair, the command center, to Him.  "Lord, this life is too much for me.  I've tried it and I know.  I welcome your offer to fly this vessel to its destination and land it safely.  You're in charge now-- I'm just working crew.  Tell me what to do."
     Finally, I need to realize that that's the best any of us can do.  Nobody is flying his own ship successfully.  Let me take pity on, have mercy toward, be generous to my brother and my sister, for their need is no less than my own (which is infinite).

     I am an extremely slow two-finger typist, and still my fingers sometimes exceed the speed of my brain.  I hope these thoughts compute...

al

[delila]

Perhaps: presumption and accusation are close brothers (cursed too)

drj

[al Hartman]

     ...presumption and accusation are close brothers (cursed too)

     drj

     ...and why, pray tell, are they not close sisters?  Could it be because they are negative qualities?  Hmmmmmmm???

gotcha,
al

[delila]

Whether accused or presumed and a tree falling... no one there to hear the screams for help... did it really happen... does it really matter.

I tried to make a point a few posts back on this thread.  Did anyone get it or was it worth getting?  I thought I was groping toward something important.  No?

Delila