Do We Have to Keep Our Commitments?

[Kimberley Tobin]

KimberLEY,

Was Christ "given permission" or "invited" before He spoke about personal issues with people?  Sometimes, yes.  Other times, His interjections and judgements were not asked for.  Why?  'Cause He cared!  

There are times, when its OK to give, as you put it, uninvited advice and input.  Yes, there needs to be discernment and wisdom.  But, if you care for that person, you will, at some point, choose to get involved, even if, at that particular moment, your intervention appears to be "uninvited".

You are making blanket statements - sort of a rebound from the negative stuff we all encountered in the assembly - when in reality, each situation is unique and involves complex (and at the same time) needy people.

OK Nancy,

Yes, Christ spoke to personal issues with people.  But that's just it, he's Christ.  I'm not.  He died for my sins.  Can you die for my sins?  Please bear with me.  I'm not trying to argue for arguement sake.  I'm not trying to say, "Hands off!  Noone can discuss the hard issues."  You mentioned the crucial issue - He cared!  When we are in relationship with people and we care about them, yes we dialogue with them.  But for these kind of issues, there must be, as you pointed out, real discernment.  I'm not saying you don't discuss the issues.  I'm just saying there isn't a blanket rule that if someone is in "sin" with an issue you think you have the answer to, God is not necessarily directing you to open your mouth and speak.

Maybe the bb isn't the place for this kind of discussion.  I hate that we can't have real time discussion and interact with facial expression, tone of voice, etc., but oh well, it is what it is...

I'd respond further (will discuss Peaceful G later) gotta go take my kids to school.

[al Hartman]

Can someone just post the rules on when, how, what, where, and to whom you can post/reply too?  

G,
     The category here is General Mayhem.  Does that help?

 ;)al

[al Hartman]

Dave:

First, I am not addressing with my previous post, the BB.  We were talking (I thought) about giving advice to people we knew and didn't know (outside of the BB.)  I tried to clarify that with my statement re: this didn't apply to your "advice" to Delila (of which, I will comment in a moment.)  Let me repeat, what I AM ADDRESSING, is in our daily contact with people (not on the BB.)  Just because you KNOW someone (not on the BB), does not give you the right to give UNSOLICITED advice.  I was assuming that your comments were directed in that regard, not our interaction within the BB community.

Just by the nature of the BB being a public domain and there is dialogue back and forth and asking of questions or putting forth statements that anyone can respond to, it places the BB context into a different category.

     I think that perhaps what is making this discussion difficult for some to follow is that your whole line of thought in this vein, Kimberley, began with your commentary regarding specific BB posts, but has now gone to emphasizing non-BB relationships.  I, for one, missed the switchover...

Having said that, I do believe there needs to be a modicum of discretion and care when responding to someone on the BB with sensative topics (i.e. divorce.)  

For example, your post below:

I'm not going to analyze your divorse from across the country on a bulletin board.  Why do you want me to fire verses at you?  So you can confirm to your heart that we Christians are nothing but insensitive, out-of-touch prudes who follow a God who is irrelevant?

Divorse is legal and it's a free country that values personal choice as the highest virtue.  Go do what you want and live with the consequences.

I believe you apologized later for not waiting to respond, however, this kind of response to someone who is in great emotional pain and turmoil already, is lacking in compassion and understanding (something Christ was remarkably adept at.)  "Go do what you want and live with the consequences."  How compassionate, how assembly.    Yes, I know you repudiate all that smacks of the assembly, but perhaps with having been out for 14 years, having resolved many of the issues for yourself, you have forgotten what it feels like to have someone treat you in such a cavalier fashion, placing a "guilt trip" on them - "live with the consequences."  Yes, what you say is true.  They will have to live with the consequences.  But please, this is not the way Christ treats us when we are grappling with such a heavy duty subject.

Does this clarify?

     Points well taken.  I wonder Kimberley, in reacting to Dave's "compassionate" & "assembly" replies to Delila, whether you considered that he, too, might be in pain for reasons unknown to us?  Each of us has an achilles heel of some sort-- a vulnerable area in which we can be easily wounded.
     Some matters, which by nature affect the whole BB community, need a public airing.  Others, involving specific personalities, may be more wisely addressed in EMs or PMs.  In either case, pushing the wrong button(s) can elicit gut-wrenching, kneejerk reactions.
     Too, sometimes an individual may be overly sensitive about matters that are of little consequence to the kingdom of heaven, such as the spelling of a name or the use of a nickname.  These non-issues must never be allowed to influence our feelings toward one another.  (In fact, a wise man would probably never use such an example , even as a nebulous illustration .)

I'd respond further (will discuss Peaceful G later) gotta go take my kids to school.

     What a refreshingly un-assembly setting of priorities !!!

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

     I hope to be perfectly clear that I am not choosing sides in this discussion as I see it as having only two legitimate sides, the Lord's side and any other consideration.  The latter is to me not an option...

God bless,
al

[Kimberley Tobin]

Al:

Here is where the switchover occurred:

I think I understand what you are saying and I would agree to a point.  However, allow me to make a clarification.

I believe we can tell people some things that God wants; otherwise, there is no sense in having a religion.  I think we can confidently tell people that God does not want us to plan out and murder politicians we don’t like.  He doesn’t want us to rape our neighbor’s wife.  He doesn’t want us to shoplift hot dogs from the grocery store.

However, some Christians reduce God’s will to a practice called prooftexting.   To illustrate, I was 19 years old when I came into the Assembly in 1978.  I was worried because there was some scuffles in the Middle East and there was a real possibility (that never panned out) that they might reinstate the draft.  I always assumed I would go if I was called up, but then Tim Geftakys says to me, “How can you go and kill people?  The Bible says, ‘Thou shalt nor murder.’”

I have since learned that this verse of the Ten Commandments is dealing more with premeditated murder in society rather than a statement whether Christians should sign up for the Army.  Nevertheless, Tim took a verse, slapped it on me, and that was the end of discussion (in his mind) about being available for the draft.

Prooftexting is popular for those who don’t want to take the time to study and think comprehensively.  But, it is shallow.

On the other hand, just because Tim “prooftexted” me, it would be wrong for me to say, “well then, I don’t believe we can tell people what God wants about going to war and we certainly can’t tell people what God wants about killing.”  Frankly, the Bible says much about when you can and cannot kill.  The problem is not that God’s opinions are unknown.   You just can’t represent God by slapping a favorite non-contextualized verse on someone and saying, “end of discussion”.

Marriage is a fundamental theme and institution that was initiated in Genesis, discussed by Jesus and expounded even more by the epistle writers.  To say that God doesn’t have anything to say about marriage is simply wrong.

If you do choose to do some reading and get understand about God’s purpose in marriage (Christian bookstores overfloweth with marriage and family books), it is beyond my capacity to tell you how to work God’s ideals for marriage into your present situation.  Further, I cannot ascertain if it is even possible for you to have a Christian marriage in your current state.  Have you and your spouse loused up the relationship to such an extent that it is completely unsalvageable?  Here, you need an expert to answer and I am not one.

I was responding to Dave stipulating that there are some things we can tell people God wants.  So it switched from simply a discussion on the BB (and so of course it invites response) to a declaration by Dave that there are things that we can tell "people" that God wants.  If that wasn't Dave intention, than I apologize.

In regards to publicly responding to Dave's posts in this matter, I felt that it needed to be addressed.  I don't believe the issue I have been addressing here is solely a problem with those who came out of the assembly (that of telling people uninvited what God's will is for their lives, based on the scripture.)  Many evangelical Christians do the same thing and alienate the very people they are trying to win for Christ or their brother/sister in Christ.  While I believe it was disproportional in the assembly, still, I believe it is one of the biggest problems in the Christian community today.  I felt that it needed to be stated publicly verses simply pm'g Dave.

And please, I hope, Dave, you aren't offended by my comments. You are a great guy, I'm sure.  I'm sure if we spent an evening with our families together, we would have a great time of fellowship (hate that word now, but don't know what else to use.)    This happens to be a topic I am passionate about and thus my passionate involvement here on this topic.

Anymore comments/questions/disagreements???

[delila]

To whom it is of concern:   

   To have confidence before God, in my own conscience, is something I really
hold as something of value.  In my assembly life, that was difficult.  Often I did things
because I was instructed by God’s people and submission to that instruction, ruled out
my own conscience.  On the issue of divorce, I assumed a certain fundamentalist
Christian response from all of you.  As I’ve already posted, assumption is kin to
accusation and has done no one any good.  I apologize for springing my assumptions
on all of you, for the defensive and negative effect that’s been a result of this
‘assumption springing’.  Not well thought out, on my part now, was it?  I know it was
particularly hard on Al H. to see the words pushed back and forth, the offensiveness
that was sparked.  That, believe it or not, was not my intention.  What was my
intension?  I had an itch that needed scratching? A burr that needed removing?  A
question that needed exploring?  I was searching for answers, and as usual, offending
as I searched.  My social skills are still evolving; I do not excuse or justify them.

   So, I read on in Genesis and this is what I found.  God found a man (Gen 15),
Abram.  God came to him in a vision (not via leading brothers or other believers).
God wanted to make a covenant.  That’s nice, eh?  God says to Abram, he’s going to
give him lots of offspring.  Abram, who’d already ‘screwed up’ in Egypt, as he sought
to protect himself from those who were after his beautiful wife.  Abram, telling that
little white lie.  And apparently, Abram had never lived ‘in fellowship’ for seven
years, because, unlike me, he wasn’t overwhelmed with guilt and shame over that
screw up.  It isn’t even written that God was especially angry with Abram.  God still
had an intention for Abram, regardless of this ‘mistake’.
   So Sarai gets tired of waiting for kids and pushes Hagar at Abraham, “Do with
her whatever you think” they made a baby.  Then Sarah, mother of God’s chosen, gets
all jealous and abuses Hagar.  Does God get all mad at Sarai and say: okay now,
deal’s off!  Nope.  And to poor Hagar, who didn’t have much of a say in any of this
(though she got pretty cocky when she turned out to be carrying Abraham’s kid) runs
away.  Does God even write her off?  No.  He comforts her in such a way that she
comes away saying: “You are the God who sees me... I have now seen the One who
sees me.”
   So now, what does all this have to do with my choice to get a divorce?  I have
to protect my children and myself, legally.  Legal divorce will do that for me.  It’s that
simple.  With the problems the man I married has, by virtue of being his wife, I could
be liable for the consequences of his behaviors, as I have been since I married him,
continually cleaning up his messes, which get bigger and bigger and consume the
resources with which I seek to feed and clothe my children.  Since under the law, I am
considered only part of a unit (he being the other part), his financial indiscretions are
my legal liabilities.  And without going into many more details, that’s it.  I do not
expect for any of you to understand or agree.  You haven’t a clue, just as I have no
clue of the choices you make daily and feel are justifiable.  That’s your business
before God, not mine.  That I’ve bothered any of you with all the information, is
regrettable.  But today I’m finishing it.  Today I’m saying, God sees me and that I
can’t really screw things up if I am acting in good conscience before God.  I have seen
the One who sees me.  I do not see a trap, laid for me.  I do not see a serpent waiting
to deceive me or that I’ve deceived myself.  I just see God.
   Please be good to one another in spite of the trouble I’ve made on this
thread.   Moonflower2: I wish we knew each other.  I have much more to say to you.
drj

[Joe Sperling]

Delila---

You have caused no trouble on this thread. What happened was actually healthy. Christians can disagree about things, misunderstand each other concerning things and apologize if they need to, and basically be human beings.

We sometimes fall into the Assembly mindset that we must all "be of one mind"--though "being of one mind" basically meant to submit to what a few taught, who in turn were submitting to what one man taught. The subject of divorce is left open to debate, because despite what some may say, the Bible does not have a clear, one-way teaching on divorce. That is why a place like the Assembly taught that even a man who was divorced BEFORE he was saved could not lead in the church--and yet another church, following Bible doctrine just as closely, will teach remarriage is acceptable. In the Assembly mindset no discussion was open on anything that was "taught"--to do so was to be in rebellion, and to be "un-entreatable."

Thanks for sharing what you have Delila and I hope you continue to do so.

--Joe

[moonflower2]

I second that, Delila. You aren't causing trouble here.
We're ALL learning.
I have to admit that I have a somewhat rigid way of looking at divorce, but sometimes that is exactly what gets a spouse to realize they have a problem and want to change it. What they tell the spouses of alcoholics, is to first change their own behavior, i.e., stop picking up "his" messes, covering up for him, doing for him what he should be doing for himself, etc. That is what helps the dysfunctional one to see himself and his problems, and it has worked.
And you are right, we don't have a clue because we really don't know the situations in the lives of others. Sometimes telling someone of an inside scene is exactly what is needed for that person to know that they were passing unfair judgement.

Moonflower2

[al Hartman]

Kimberley,

     Thank you for your thorough explanation-- it all makes sense to me now, as I hope it does to others.  I couldn't be more in agreement with you on the following, which is why I'm quoting it:

     ...I don't believe the issue I have been addressing here is solely a problem with those who came out of the assembly (that of telling people uninvited what God's will is for their lives, based on the scripture.)  Many evangelical Christians do the same thing and alienate the very people they are trying to win for Christ or their brother/sister in Christ.  While I believe it was disproportional in the assembly, still, I believe it is one of the biggest problems in the Christian community today.  

     Waving the Bible in people's faces is akin to the noises a shaman makes to drive off evil spirits-- it is a courage-booster that the fearful use to convince themselves they are unassailable.  Basic human nature is more comfortable talking down to someone than on an even level.  I regret to admit that I say this from personal experience.  The true servant of God may have occasion to be bold, but will not be brash.

     But the love of Christ in us is a new standard of human nature, not base at all but divine.  And the Word of God is swift and powerful, having no need of our loudness or our pointing finger to reinforce it.  We are at liberty to share from a wellspring of loving concern for the other person, having full confidence that God's Word will not return to Him void.  Besides that we have the wonderful gift of prayer, being able to intercede on behalf of the one we care for.

     If we are partakers of the peace that He gives us, we find no need to dictate terms of conduct to another.  We do not care that others follow 'proper' form for appearance's sake.  Rather, if we see a spiritual need in our brother or sister, we seek a spiritual solution-- the working of God, not of man-- a remedy of the heart that will bear fruit in life-practice; not a change of practice that pretends to affect the heart.


Dave,

     After the repeated "proof-texting" many received in the assembly, I think we need to be de-versified!


     BTW, Kimberley, Cathy & I plan to spend an evening or two with the Sables later this spring, so I'll let you know if he's still "a great guy" or not!

God bless,
al

[Kimberley Tobin]

Al:

Yeah    You got it!  Yes!  This is what I was trying to communicate.  Boy!  And I thought I was a good communicator.  Well, my husband would say, "You sure know how to talk alot, you want to tell them where you were born, how bout where you went to school?"    (My husband is a funny guy!)

Your eloquence conveyed far better than I have been doing what I was trying to say.  Thank you.

Hey Dave!  Where are you, did you fall off the face of the earth?  I would really like to hear your comments.

Delila - I love you for exposing yourself here for this topic to be discussed.  I think it was ultimately beneficial and I hope that is how you can come to view it.

Have a great day everybody!