Then we all hugged and said goodbye

[Bob Sturnfield]

I met with the leading brothers in Chicago last Thursday night.

I told them that as a good shepherd, I need to find a place where my wife and children can flourish.

Roger then asked me if this had to do with David?  

I told him yes, that my wife (Teresa) and daughter (Emily) had previously heard about it, but that I first found out about it Monday.

That reading her letter brought back floods of memories of how bad David treated me and the things he said and did to me.

That I then read Steve Iron's account of how he was removed from leadership.  That Steve asked for an apology regarding false accusations made about his son, Steve said that they were bringing up things Lee had long before repented of and had been brought back into fellowship.  That instead of an apology, Steve was removed from leadership.

I pointed out how at Teen Team this last summer, my daughter had been publicly accused of something at a counselor's meeting that Liz later proved was a false accusation.  They apologized to her privately, but for the rest of her time there in Fullerton she had ones coming up to her and exhorting her to repent, and she had to keep telling them that they know nothing about the situation and if they have a problem they should talk to Cheryl Zach.  

I told them that I can not allow my children to be treated like I was treated.

They each asked me if I had any grudges against them?  I laid out a list to each.  They each asked my forgiveness.

Then I asked if they had any grudges against me?  They each said "no", but there were other ways they felt they had offended me.  They listed the cases, I expounded on how hard each of those times were to me, and then they asked my forgiveness.

Then they asked me if I had forgiven David?  I told them it was not a matter of forgiveness,  I thought I forgave him a long time ago.  It's a matter of dealing with the problem.  When I found out that he was still doing to someone I care about what he did to me, it makes me so angry!  The problem never has been dealt with.

Back in 1979 I had been told that he was sent to a clinic, that his fits of rage and psychotic behavior were due to a "chemical imbalance in his brain", and the reason he was being allowed to be in the work in St. Louis was that "he was cured".  At the time, I felt that he still had not "made it right" with those he offended, however I felt that a grudge would hurt me more than him.  So I forgave him back then, but I can not understand that after having these problems why he was not watched?

Roger said he had never heard about the clinic nor any cause of David's fits of rage.  He has no idea why it was not dealt with and that he has not been able to sleep for days.  I told him I have not been able to sleep either.

I again told them that as a good shepherd I need to find a place where my wife and children can flourish.

The brothers each prayed for me and my family, that we would continue to grow and flourish where ever the Lord would send us.

Then we all hugged and said goodbye.

This was actually the second time I told Roger that I was leaving.

The first was in 1977.  At that time I was assured that things would change.  So, I stayed and they removed David Geftakys from the Brother's house in Chicago.

[Eulaha L. Long]

Bob,

When I left the Assembly in San Luis Obispo, California, I was told things such as, "You are leaving the covering", "It is sinful for you to leave", "You have lost your vision", etc.  No one hugged me and said goodbye!  

I personally think that the further away an Assembly is from Fullerton, the more autonomous it is...what do you think?

[Arthur]

Uh, yeah, no hugs for me either.  I wish I was in your assembly -- sounds great.  They actually asked for forgiveness?  Man, are you sure we're talking about the same group here?

[Aslan213]

I personally think that the further away an Assembly is from Fullerton, the more autonomous it is...what do you think?

I believed this for many years even while in the assembly.  This is what I got for leaving, "someday you will be wandering in this universe without a body for all this.  You're going to wander in a non-existent state...I'm just saying you're going to suffer for this."

A corollary is, the closer you are to Fullerton, the more likely you'll be verbally assaulted.

Eric

[Rachel]

I believe that the more damaging the information you know or the more you have that the assembly wants (money ect.) the more difficult your exit will be.  They will do all they can to scare you into staying or at least try to keep you quiet.

[Bob Sturnfield]

Eulaha,

Some have written me things like:
"They are in 'damage control' mode",
"They know exactly when a 'brother of influence' is leaving. They are practiced in this",
or " When I say raged, that's what I mean. My kids listened outside my study door. They were ready to hit the road after that. He unwittingly did me a big favor."

At first I hesitated to post the account of how we "left the Assembly", because I was concerned that it would offend those who are hurting the most.

But, I posted because this behavior was a "good example" to the other Assembly Leaders and I hope the contrast might prick their stony hearts.  Whatever their reason, it stands in stark contrast showing what would be the norm in any healthy gathering.

It hurts so much to leave on the best of terms, I definitely feel for you having been openly attacked.  I hope you have sought out some form of counseling.  I only spent one year with DG and that over 26 years ago, so I am surprised how much it still hurts.

I understand that your trust has been broken, but do not give up on the Lord's people.  There are churches out there that will help the healing without requiring anything in return.


No, I do not believe that the Assembly in Chicago is autonomous.
One of the Elders here has been GG's main travel companion for years.
I know of no major decision that has been made without the approval of GG or at least running it by the Mid-West Worker's meeting.
The fear of openly admitting problems is due to the continual gossiping at the Mid-West Worker's meeting.
Much of the strange practices of how children are raised and women are expected to behave is due to yearly meetings with BG.  
BG's teachings are also why there is such an emphasis on controlling the outward appearance.

[Kimberley Tobin]

Let me see, when my husband and I first met with a leading brother, Andrew Gunther, to tell him of our choosing to fellowship elsewhere (remember, there is supposed to be plurality of leadership in this place), we asked if there were any questions, if we could enlighten him any as to why we were choosing to fellowship elsewhere (other than the four reasons my husband has previously stated on this bulletin board.)  He just sat there shocked, dumbfounded and replied, "Uh, no."  In fact, he stated he DID NOT want to know about what went on up in San Luis Obisbo.  He said that was none of his business and did not matter to him.  He said, "I still love you guys, we'll be praying for you, but we won't be seeing you."  So I inquired, "So...you say you love us, but we won't be seeing you?"  "Well, no.....", he replied with a rather somber expression on his face.  I called his wife approximately 6 weeks later (a rather dear friend of mine) who was incredibly hostile with me on the phone and wouldn't have a decent conversation with me and made it very clear that we could not have continuing friendship.

Another of my friends has informed me (twice) that we didn't leave in the "appropriate" way.  We didn't meet with ALL the leading brothers.  Again, what happened to plurality of leadership?

Other dear friends of mine (the woman who was my MAID OF HONOR AT MY WEDDING) I haven't even heard from.  She is a worker, so I am not surprised.  But you would think, that if these were your dear friends for fifteen years that they would be interested in how you were doing, etc.  But no, that is what is encouraged in this place.  Shun those who choose to go elsewhere, make them feel that they are unloved and they are damned to hell.

I am a little sensative as it has only been approximately 2 1/2 months since my husband and I stopped meeting with the lodge.  But, I would never go back.  My sanity, my health and my kids lives depend on being in a healthy christian environment.  We will make friends as time goes on.  There have actually been some lovely christian men and women who have reached out to us and the fellowship on this board has helped considerably.

May the Lord bless you all,

Kimberley

[sue xander]

We left from the same Lodge as the Sturnfield's with being from an additional arm in "lombard".  I would have to say that each experience is or must be unique.  I don't think the leadership in Chicago is a "good example" at all.  We left for many reasons, one being that we knew the Lord called us "out" of that ministry.  We did not have any blatent sins or had done anything wrong, but they treated us ( and still do) like the plagues of Egypt.  Your Exit Bob was good for you, but its not like that for everyone.  Also the leading brothers in Chicago are also dealing with the shame of covering up ( b/c they knew) the episodes of David Geftakys.  That might be why you got the red carpet treatment for leaving.  You got the hugs, we got the boot!

[Sebastian Andrew]

Greetings:
It has been quite a while since I left. I wasn't treated nearly as bad as some have been. Let their treatment of us be a wakeup call and then it becomes a little more positive-easy to say, I know. I hope no one wastes any time wondering if they left(leave) in the correct way.

[Chris the Kulig]

Bob,

Thanks for posting. We have talked since and you are still a dear brother to me. We hope your family does flourish and we will stay in touch. God is not unfaithful to forget your work and labor of love in the Chicago Assembly. Be fruitfull and multiply.

With love,
Chris

[sue xander]

I have to comment on this:


  "Bob,

Thanks for posting. We have talked since and you are still a dear brother to me. We hope your family does flourish and we will stay in touch. God is not unfaithful to forget your work and labor of love in the Chicago Assembly. Be fruitfull and multiply.

With love,
Chris  "


Personally, I am so glad that Bob had a good experience leaving, but a lot of his experiences along with his family's have not all been good in the lodge.  What warrants a commendation from Chris of love?  Is it b/c Bob left with the "brothers blessings"?  What happens when you leave with the Lord's blessing?  No commendation of love was given by Chris for that.  David Geftakys's sins, problems, violent behavior, or what have you is a good reason to leave.  But it is not the only reason to leave.  There are lots of reasons why people have left that place.  What about b/c God told you to?  To those "in" the lodge that was not a reason.  A leading brother's wife once told me that she did not believe in any way shape or form that God called you "out" of anything.  I was also told by a "responsible" brother in St. Louis, " IF you leave the Assembly, you have left the Lord."  That is BLASPHEMOUS!!!!!  You are therefore stating by that ,that YOU ARE GOD.  The assembly is NOT GOD!  ITs not even a place where God dwells.
     So this brings me to the fact that why it is ok to commend someone for leaving for reasons of the sins of David Geftakys ( and I am not saying this is the only reason why Bob and family left)....and its not ok to commend to leave b/c the LORD told you to?  Why is there always the assumption of sin?  That was the first assumptions of Chris's wife ( whom I cared for very deeply).    Why did I not get a public "pat on the back" instead of a letter accusing me of sin and bitterness?  AS a matter of fact, Chris you did not even say a word to our family when we left.  We were in your wedding for crying out loud, and you never even called or made any kind of comment at all!!!!!  Only your wife did on definitely more than one occasion.  Why is that you can give one leaving your love and the other, ( in whom you had a closer relationship with) nothing at all?( or was it a relationship at all? - see my article on friendships!)  Is it still that control issue that lodge members have that makes things ok if the "leadership " says its ok? I mean if you never called to ask why, how can you judge?  If you know not all the facts in light of all the traumas that for instance we went thru, how can you condemn without full knowledge?  You did not verbally condemn...that is totally true!  But your silence spoke volumes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     SO the hypocrisy continues as it always had                    ( AUTONOMY OR NOT  -  WHAT A JOKE!).  If the leading brothers say its ok, then its ok.  If they say its not, then its not.  I think that WE TOO, need to hear that God is NOT unfaithful to forget OUR labors of love in the Chicago and Lombard assembly as well.  We are Children of the King as well as you and your family, and the Sturnfields and many others.  God knows OUR hearts, OUR reasons for leaving, and OUR reasons for cutting you all off. ( one of which is stated above). Truly, the fact is that we ONLY have to answer to HIM, not you or the leading brothers!!!!!!   Its nice to know that you still love SOME of those who have left.  But I guess you had to know that a HUG from the leadership was given, for it to be ok to leave with a blessing.  I guess God's blessing was not good enough for you.
     

[Kay]

Garth you are Too much!
Yes we have 5 great kids, a housefull plus 2 cats, fish lizards and related reptiles, 20 plus loads of laundry a week, lots of stuff, laundry, stuff, computers, stuff...
We're multuplying!!!!
And on a serious note......Sue is right that there are other reasons we left the Lodge. The main ones are the lies, coverup of  abuse, hypocrisy, denial of sin. Did we get the Ldg Bro blessing? Hmmm that's pushing it, I think they realized Bob had made the decision to leave, his reasons were final and they could not refute them.

[editor]

Good Morning Sue!  

You are totally right on with your last post.  

It works like this:
Everyone in the lodge has one purpose, to further the lodge and its leaders agenda and personal fulfillment.

Some people are valuable because people like them. Their presence helps lend legitimacy to the system.  Leaders must not do something to these people that puts their admirers out of joint.  So, a very few people leave with a "Blessing," because it keeps the others from getting offended at the way their friends were treated.

Other members, who have the ability to influence people, and who are considered unpredictable, or a threat to the lodge system, are never allowed to leave with a blessing, because this would add legitimacy to the valid reasons they give for leaving.  Usually,  the leadership handles this type of person by slowing down the departure process in order to give the leaders time to quietly slander the person before they leave.  Then, no matter what the reason is, the person leaving is ignored or despised as bitter, or rebellious, etc.

Receiving a blessing is meaningless.  Just because you get one doesn't mean that the leaders love you more, nor does it mean that your conduct is more Christ-like.  It only means that it was in the lodge's best interest to handle to PR problem in the manner that they did.

Brent

[Bob Sturnfield]

Thank you Brent for the compliment (at least I think it was?).

Another attack that both Teresa and Sue have suffered from is what I call the "EVE Syndrome." Or "Blame the wife for all problems and she's always the reason for the family leaving."

Yes, our major reason for leaving was my desire to be "a good shepherd for my wife and daughter", but it was my decision despite the comments and gossip to the contrary.

Did I believe the Lord was calling us out?  Yes.  Did I know where He was calling us?  Only in hind sight.

We went to Harvest Bible Chapel on Christmas Eve (two days before my exit interview), and it really seems this is where the Lord is calling us. It is interesting to see their emphasis on Acts 2:42 and how similar it is to what we have been taught.  This month's emphasis is on Fellowship, or working with other believers in serving the Lord.  And yes, they emphasize each "pillar" personally and corporately. Their web site:   http://www.harvestbible.org/

I know it was good for a laugh, but I do not believe "Be fruitful and multiply" applies primarily to having kids nor number of computers.  So, yes Chris, I do expect the Lord to make us fruitful and multiply our faith in the new place He has called us to.

I feel bad for how Sue flamed you.  She and a lot of other people are very deeply hurt by how they were treated once they left the Assembly.  Even though they have forgiven, yet the pain might still be there the rest of their lives.

As I said previously "At first I hesitated to post the account of how we 'left the Assembly', because I was concerned that it would offend those who are hurting the most.  But, I posted because . . . it stands in stark contrast showing what would be the norm in any healthy gathering."

I have had numerous e-mails and phone calls from ones in a number of the Assemblies telling me how much they respect me, wishing me well, letting me know I am always welcome in their home, etc.

And yes, I have had a number of ones send me private posts.  You however are the only one to post it publicly using your real name.  I appreciate it.

With much love,
Bob S.

Heb 13: 5b For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."
6  So we may boldly say: "The LORD is my helper; I will not fear. What can man do to me?"

[4Him]

Greg,
I heartily agree!
I've been beating that same drum here in Springfield!  They are without excuse (Ro 1:20), they are in full knowledge that they have directly offended Judy.  What on earth are they waiting for?!  Does Mt 5:24 tell us "go thy way, have a meeting with the workers / elders; be reconciled to thy brother"?  I've always interpreted that verse to mean that if I want to be right with God I personally must make it right with the person I've sinned against.  Silly me.  I know firsthand (at least as of two days ago) that no one has made any attempt to contact either Judy or Rachel with anything even resembling an apology.  How long's it been since Rachel published her story?  How long's it take to drive from Fullerton to SLO? to call? ...to write?
This is a symptom of what I see as a deep rooted problem in the "George Geftakys Way".  This is part of the reason why I have decided to separate from it.  To those still attached to it that read this, I have no personal grudge, bitterness or animosity against anyone, including the leadership in or that has been in Springfield.  I have not left out of discouragement or because of being personally offended, but rather, God has very definitely used these revelations of sin to open my eyes to what is and has been going on around me for over 24 years.  I am following my conscience in the Lord.  Acts 5:29 - "We ought to obey God rather than men."