a very long thread

[jesusfreak]

I am so sorry you missed this one Lucas..it was really the key to everything...no amount of  rhetoric, not matter how erudite, will assist here; you either see this or you don't...!I know God will give you wisdom...

Verne

I understand the inferences to your statement, but feel that Faith is too loaded a word to describe your intent.  If you find it to mean, simply, "Confident belief in God", than I would heartedly agree with you.  I would just say this instead of using a Faith full of irrelevant connotations that might confuse, such as "the body of dogma of a religion" or "a set of principles or beliefs".  

*This* is why the disposition of your statement is fraudulent.
*This* is the cause of my wince  

--
lucas

I do not define faith as "confident belief in God" Lucas. Rather, I define faith as confident belief in what God says. Again, forgive me If I am presuming on a certain basic agreement in these conversations, on the fundamental principles of our faith.

As you argued before, it is impossible to prove unless there is an utilization.  I have a confident belief in God, because He has *said*......not because of the content of what He has said.

p.s. you did not tell me if you accepted my fundamental premise: that God chooses...

This is not a fair question to ask, without conditions  

Of course God chooses, but His judgments ultimately remain the same.....

--
lucas

Very good. Three final questions.

1. When does God choose?

Following the ultimate choice (detailed several posts below)

--
lucas

Then you believe that God makes His decisions in time...I thought so, and a very common assumption.  
Verne

I believe the point you are trying to make, mixes 2 very different dimensional analyses.  Of course, God does indeed know where each Man is going to go (ultimately speaking), but His knowledge of this does not in the least override Man's ability of Choice.  We as Man are constrained by 4 dimensions, whereas God is outside all of these.  

Anyway, I said that judgement is procured once that final decision has been made.....this is not in the least a linear relationship, at least not in reference to God.  Eternally, the judgement has been made, but we still must live our lives by choice.

p.s.s I don't want to get too deep here folk but I have to just add this so you can think about it. If God makes decisions only in time, or contrained by time in any way, as Lucas suggests, then He of necessity cannot make decisions until the "time has come". Are you comfortable with the reusltant implications of this position...?!

This is not at all what I have said, please read more closely? Or show me where I have said it?  Do not mix our perspective as Man with God's perspective.....

--
lucas

[jesusfreak]

 Do not mix our perspective as Man with God's perspective.....

--
lucas

Brilliant! This indeed is the entire source of the difficulty in my view. No argument here, Lucas.
Verne

So......where were we going with this converstation anyway?  

--
lucas

[Stillwater]

Marcia,

  I recently found a VERY OLD message from you asking for my forgiveness. Since I couldn't find an email address for you, I am responding this way. And I'm sorry it's taken me so long. I haven't checked this board in a very long time. I just wanted to say that I'm not aware of the message you referred to, but I understand how confusing--and volatile--thoughts and feelings can be when you're trying to sort through this stuff. I have no hard feelings.

Take care,  
Heather

[jesusfreak]

If I must err on this, I perfer to do it on the side of God's omnipotence...assigning absolute freedom of will, even in the matter of salvaton, to a fallen and sinful creature like man indicates to me that someone simply does not undertstand the true nature of man's fall.  
Verne

With this comment, it seems to me that someone simply does not understand the necessity for the potential of Man to fall and the true magnificence of Salvation  

--
lucas

[jesusfreak]

If I must err on this, I perfer to do it on the side of God's omnipotence...assigning absolute freedom of will, even in the matter of salvaton, to a fallen and sinful creature like man indicates to me that someone simply does not undertstand the true nature of man's fall.  
Verne

With this comment, it seems to me that someone simply does not understand the necessity for the potential of Man to fall and the true magnificence of Salvation  

--
lucas

Potential is an interesting word in this context. Adam had a better chance of choosing for God than any other human who ever lived (with the exception of Christ) could ever dream of having. Afterall he was sinless! He nevertheless blew it. Talking about potential in light of history is most amusing...I wonder if we will ever really get it...well, I tried my best.  
Verne

If you can have an absolutely perfect choice, you must also have one that is slightly less perfect....and one slightly less perfect than that.....and finally one that is not perfect *at all*.  If this was not true, than there could be no "absolute perfect" in the first place.

Therefore, there must be absolute freedom of choice if there exists the ability to choose at all.

--
lucas

[jesusfreak]

Therefore, there must be absolute freedom of choice if there exists the ability to choose at all.

--
lucas

Think about this statement Lucas. You are a pretty sharp fellow...
It is self-evident that if I have absolute freedom of choice, then you do not...nor does anybody else...
Verne

p.s why do I get the impression that you are pulling my leg?!  

err, opps

That last part was an incomplete reference to a previous statement of your's from earlier in this thread.  Replace "choice" and "choose" with "will" in that last part   Tis what I get for trusting my memory of what is said

References:

I perfer to do it on the side of God's omnipotence...assigning absolute freedom of will, even in the matter of salvaton, to a fallen and sinful creature like man indicates to me that someone simply does not undertstand the true nature of man's fall.

I suppose I will also address that One's "will" has no affect upon the "will" of another without another medium being transversed, same with "choice" to an extent
--
lucas

[M2]

Someone used my initials to register on SWTE.  It is not me.  The only other individual I can think of with my initials is Mark Miller, but I do not know if it is him.

Marcia

[delila]

I have been blessed with a few alcoholics in my family.  Through the years I have learned a few things about co-exisiting with their madness.

When they are using, I avoid conversation on anything meaningful, still to hi bye and take care of yourself and then get busy with something else.

The Soaring site is using.  They're all on drugs, so to speak.  These drugs prohibit reason.  Why do you hang out there?  They don't want your truth, Marcia, they want to mock you from their drunken stupor.  

So listen, honey, take care of yourself.  I love my uncle, but I never try to hold a discussion with him when he's pasted.  These people are pasted.  Do you think you're helping them?  Do you think you're helping yourself?  I think not.

Love,

Delila

[Margaret]

I don't know about Matt Peeling, but Sondra Quinlan is Local Church.  They get into their altered state by "pray reading" Bible verses.  I've been in their meetings, it's a trip - cognitive reasoning is totally suspended.  They do this in their personal devotions as well, so they're on a constant bender.

[Joe Sperling]

Margaret---

Really? She's in the Local Church? Wow. I went to one of their meetings once and it was one of the strangest things I ever experienced. The teachings of the Local Church are completely off-base. I remember also, when I went to the meeting at the time they sang a song that used the tune of a Budweiser commercial.
But instead of Budweiser it was replaced with Lord Jesus:

"When you say Lord, you've said a lot of things nobody else can say....  When you say Lord Je-sus, you've said it all".  Forgive me for repeating it--but I remember it because I thought it was so strange that they would sing a tune like that in a meeting.  It gives me chills just remembering it.

--Joe

[Oscar]

Margaret---

Really? She's in the Local Church? Wow. I went to one of their meetings once and it was one of the strangest things I ever experienced. The teachings of the Local Church are completely off-base. I remember also, when I went to the meeting at the time they sang a song that used the tune of a Budweiser commercial.
But instead of Budweiser it was replaced with Lord Jesus:

"When you say Lord, you've said a lot of things nobody else can say....  When you say Lord Je-sus, you've said it all".  Forgive me for repeating it--but I remember it because I thought it was so strange that they would sing a tune like that in a meeting.  It gives me chills just remembering it.

--Joe

Joe,

Once when I was on the CSUN campus they were having an "outreach".  They believe, or believed, that if someone says, "Lord Jesus" that the Holy Spirit rushes into them and they are saved.

Didn't Calvin teach that?  

Anyway, they had set up two rows of chairs along a walkway.  The chairs narrowed down to leave just enough room for one person to get through at a time.  They were all grouped at the narrow end of the "funnel".  

As people passed through they would all urge him/her to say, "Oh Lord Jesus".  If someone gave in and said it...they jumped up and down and shouted "Praise the Lord"...then they would launch into the Budwieser song you mentioned.

Absolutely Whacko.

Thomas Maddux

[delila]

Margaret---

Really? She's in the Local Church? Wow. I went to one of their meetings once and it was one of the strangest things I ever experienced. The teachings of the Local Church are completely off-base. I remember also, when I went to the meeting at the time they sang a song that used the tune of a Budweiser commercial.
But instead of Budweiser it was replaced with Lord Jesus:

"When you say Lord, you've said a lot of things nobody else can say....  When you say Lord Je-sus, you've said it all".  Forgive me for repeating it--but I remember it because I thought it was so strange that they would sing a tune like that in a meeting.  It gives me chills just remembering it.

--Joe

Joe,

Once when I was on the CSUN campus they were having an "outreach".  They believe, or believed, that if someone says, "Lord Jesus" that the Holy Spirit rushes into them and they are saved.

Didn't Calvin teach that?  

Anyway, they had set up two rows of chairs along a walkway.  The chairs narrowed down to leave just enough room for one person to get through at a time.  They were all grouped at the narrow end of the "funnel".  

As people passed through they would all urge him/her to say, "Oh Lord Jesus".  If someone gave in and said it...they jumped up and down and shouted "Praise the Lord"...then they would launch into the Budwieser song you mentioned.

Absolutely Whacko.

Thomas Maddux

Well, how's that for a hunch on a thrity second glimpse into a dark tunnel?  Yikes.  This Bud's for you! And thanks for filling me in, eh?

So, why do (sober) right minded individuals go to that site again?

Delila

[outdeep]

I once stopped off at Living Springs bookstore at their Local Church center (their "Fullerton") on Ball Road in Anaheim.  Among the many Witness Lee and Watchman Nee materials they had, they had a songbook for kids.  One song, was sung to the tune of Jesus Loves me, This I Know, but it went like this:

God is processed, this I know
For The Bible tells me so

The rest of the words escape me, but it went on to tell how God was processed from the Father to the Son to the Holy Spirit.  I don't think it got into God being mingled with the church.  Maybe that was described in their version of The Old Rugged Cross.   Seriously, the children's song was pretty blatant.

This, by the way, is why groups like CRI never took a hard stand against the Assembly.  Compared to groups like the Local Church that are WAY over the line, we looked pretty normal.

[Oscar]

I don't know about Matt Peeling, but Sondra Quinlan is Local Church.  They get into their altered state by "pray reading" Bible verses.  I've been in their meetings, it's a trip - cognitive reasoning is totally suspended.  They do this in their personal devotions as well, so they're on a constant bender.

Margaret,

How do you know that Sondra Quinlan is Local Church?  

I just received an e-mail in which she angrily denies this.

Thomas Maddux

[Margaret]

I don't remember where I heard it, Tom.  But I do remember thinking in regard to Sondra's posts on her original website that it made sense.  Her language was quite along the lines of Witness Lee - "stepping over into the spirit man", etc.  I would be very happy to be learn that she is not a follower of Witness Lee, and retract my statement.